Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanatic, Feb 1, 2013.
As do I .
I enjoyed Carolina's 2012 Worlds LP more than anything Mao or Yuna has ever done.
That's subjective, but I stick by it. One thing I will say is that it gets tiring when people act as if their own opinions and analysis aren't tainted by their own bias, subjective preferences, and skater loyalty. It's not the debate, but it's the lack of self-awareness people have of their own prejudices when making so-called "objective" claims-of-fact that's irksome.
I think the World Championships this year will prove very interesting. Mao, Yu-Na and Carolina all have different qualities and weaknesses. Carolina and Yu-Na are the only two that can compete in terms of speed (Mao has always been slower in comparison), while Yu-Na has the most technically-weighty program of the 3 in terms of jumps. Mao's strategy is similar to Carolina's, in that she's banking on positive GOE on all her elements, even though the jump content is easier that what both are capable of at maximum. I think Carolina has the best FP choreographically speaking (and she has the highest PCS for her FP of the three-70), followed by Mao (beautiful program, suits her perfectly) then by Yu-Na. Yu-Na is a beautiful performer, and her FP is very nice, but personally I find the music a little cheesy (not to mention the strange music cut into the ChSq) and not as polished and sophisticated as Mao or Carolina. I think the greatest hurdles each skater will have to face respectively will be: Yu-Na-not competing enough this season; Mao-keeping her head together, her knees fast and bendy, and getting a perfect, all GOE+ FP out, and Carolina keeping her head together under the pressure.
This thread reminds me why I think making transitions a components category is horrible!
Mao > everyone
Ooh great topic.
To be fair though I'm going to need to watch their recent performances and review carefully before I post.
Already though I'm pretty sure Mao's spirals, spins and footwork >>>
That formula should be put into the ISU technical code.
I'd put Kostner ahead of Asada on footwork.
i think yuna>caro>mao
but, yuna have not a lot of experience this season, I'm not sure..
yuna kim's 3loop..
In practice she can
but, She has trauma in loop, injured in 06-08 Seasons.
loop is well known as the weaknesses jump to her
the lowest success rate in her jumps
until, 08-09 season
she have landed 3loop in program
Performing some thread necromancy here; in light of the the conclusion of 4CCs, and re-watching Mao, Yu-Na, and Carolina.
I think that Mao and Carolina (and Akiko, but she is not being discussed in this thread) have both shown tremendous artistic growth that Yu-Na has not. Whether that's because of Yu-Na's layoff or natural ability/desire, I don't know. But for me, Carolina & Mao are very purposeful in their movements; they use the accents and change their movements according to what they're skating to. It's like the music is coming out of their fingertips. Yu-Na, in my opinion, does not. She's a good performer - better than most - but she's not the artist that Mao and Carolina have become. Her movements seem...generic? put on? shallow? Technically, she's amazing, but I think that this lack of genuine artistry keeps me from really enjoying her skating.
(On another note, Yu-Na's spiral is really quite ugly - and I'm so sick of the David Wilson facestroking choreography).
I agree with you. Yu Na is just too reserved. At least Shizuka, another reserved skater, had skating skills like butter and good to great line to mask that (plus Turandot). Yu Na needs to let loose and show more freedom-of-movement and abandon. Right now, she seems too choreographed. It's like an actress with excellent skills, but is too heavily-directed to the point where it shows.
I know her fans underplay this, but Yu Na's line really does need work. At first many let it slide because she was so much better in her jumps and speed for others to follow. However, now that the other skaters are catching up somewhat, her lack of attention or care to her bodyline is very noticeable.
I hope they all deliver and may the best win!
I like them all for so many different reasons, and they have contributed for great skating since 2007. Wonder what will happen after Sochi, so just enjoy them now.
In fairness to Yu-Na Kim unlike Kostner and Asada she hasn't had to change. Her jumps are at the level of 2010 (though I guess World Champs will fully show that) and her elements score well and she scores well with her PCs. Kostner and Asada both saw their jumps deteriorate and so much more focus was put on their other elements and both have focused much more on their artistry. Asada now seems to be bringing some of her old difficulty back though she still has underrotation problems and it'll be interesting to see what Kostner shows up with at worlds. I just hope she keeps the momentum she's had the last two years. But she can be very erratic as Asada can too.
I can see your point, but as she does not have to work on the technical side as much (because she's already so good) mean that Yu-Na has more time to develop her artistic side? That's just my thought.
Yuna could have worked on pointing her toe, her wonky spiral and correcting the free leg in her lay back, but she didn't.
Great first post analysis, and some good insights after, but this thread is a Petri dish of uberism.
All I have to add is that I can't wait for Worlds. It is the first time any of these 3 ladies meet each other all year + the Americans and Russians...it should be an epic competition!
Just because you think so doesn't mean that she worked on nothing.
oleada, just because a skater "doesn't move you" does not mean she is not artistic.....
Yuna >>> Mao >>>>>>>>>> Carolina, and the podium will be in that order, unless someone collapses and one of the next tier skaters move up.
I don't really have a favorite anymore. I am happy with whoever skated best wins at the end. But I think it's going to be between Yuna and Mao. Carolina doesn't seem to handle the pressure as well as these two.
And because she does you, doesn't mean she is, either. I stated my reasons why I find that Yu-Na is not as artistic as Carolina and Mao, and I did say that it was all my opinion; though others clearly agree. Yu-Na, Mao & Carolina are all great; and they have their own strengths, and yes, it might come as a shock to you, but there are things that Mao & Carolina do better than Yu-Na (and vice versa) and not everyone prefers Yu-Na at all.
But I should know better than to argue with an uber
Yuna is very expressive usually but her programs this year aren't choreographed as well as the past programs, maybe that's what Oleada meant?
Not entirely, though I think Mao & Carolina have much better programs than Yu-Na. But it's also what I mentioned earlier - I think Carolina & Mao have always been musical, but they've shown such obvious development in the past few years that Yu-Na hasn't - to the point that they've really outshined her in that respect. They move with purpose, and musicality, and their interpretation is more nuanced and emotional, than Yu-Na. Yu-Na shows off her programs well enough, but there's not a lot of range, depth or feeling there. It just comes across as very scripted or acted or shallow (I can't really find the right word). I mean, I watch Mao do the footwork in her SP this year, and the end of Carolina's LP, and it's so expressive and well done and perfect to that particular music, hitting every note, and I don't think Yu-Na's ever quite done that.
Well, everyone's opinion is subjective so I don't think it is necessary to convince others
I think the lack of some jumps is glaring among these skaters
I thought Oleada was only stating her opinion. I like that she actually backed up why she thought the way she did. It was only when people took her criticisms of Yu Na Kim personally and started to challenge Oleada directly that she felt the need to respond.
Danse Macabre, ETDR, Scheherazade, Lark Ascending, Bond girl, Gershwin, Giselle, and Arirang. Especially Danse Macabre, El Tango De Roxanne, Scheherazade(the program that I fell in love with instantly and made me a fan of Yuna's after Worlds), Bond girl, and Giselle--these programs hit almost every note of the music on every element. One of most praised things by commentators about Yuna was that she was so musical, marking subtle nuances in her programs and I totally agree. If you say you have not seen that in these programs, I don't know what else to say. I'd quite agree to some extent that programs from THIS SEASON might not measure up to her very best ability shown in those programs but saying Yuna is not musical, or no more musical than Mao or Carolina is an understatement about Yuna's quality.
I have always thought both Mao and YuNa were extremely talented and interesting to watch (for some reason I never took to Carolina's skating all that much. But for me Mao's 4CC's program made me excited and inspired for the first time in years. Her program while not perfect was just magical. It was the first time since Michelle left the scene and COP was ushered in that I have watched a performance of anyone more then once. I could watch the ending to her program over and over. For me she reached that magical formula of musicality, dance, technique, passion and beauty that I have missed so much over the last 6 years. I honestly thought I would never see a performance that would inspire me to watch repeatedly ever again - she just reached a level where the whole equaled more than the sum of its parts and that is when I get captivated. While YuNa has had some remarkable skates - I've never felt that from her, although I know others have.
well, she clearly hasn't had any improvements in these areas.
It's so nice to see these kind of comments on Asada. Thanks for posting.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who is tired of Wilson's choreography. I think his choreography can be just as generic as Lori's. Wish Hanyu can go back to the choreographer for his Romeo and Juliet LP. I would have liked to see Yuna work more with Tom Dickson. Danse Macabre was more popular but Tango Roxanne is the better program. I have never been a fan of Kostner but I have developed a sense of new found respect for her since last season because of the interesting choreography. She really seems to spend a lot of time on her choreography and interpretation of the music. I love both of her programs this season and I think she has the best interpretation of the ladies now.
Maybe people have different interpretations of muscality? Or that different people perceive musicality on different levels?
For me, the best female skater in the past few years in terms of musicality, dance, interpretation, passion, commitment to the choreography, and pure movement has been Akiko Suzuki...no question. IMO, no other female skater compares to her in that respect.
IMO, I don't agree with this.
Yuna KIM & Mao ASADA - 2010 Olympics FS
yuna kim - Meditation from 'Thais'
when I saw this exhibition, I felt music flows from the her edge.
yuna kim - danse macabre
it was superb... one of the best programs I can remember in a long time.
Agreed, though I like these three ladies artistically as well.
Personally, I don't see anything special in Yuna's Danse Macabre at all. When I first heard she was going to skate to that music I was so excited as it seemed an absolutely perfect chice for her, but when I actually saw the program it was such a letdown. Not Yuna's fault, she did quite a good job selling it, but the choreography was very disappointing to me.
I still think Tango de Roxane and Lark Asceding were Yuna's best programs and nothing has come even close since.
As far as artistry is concerned, I completely agree with oleada. Yuna's interpretation usually leaves me cold as it often feels too choreographed and superficial. At 2007 Worlds SP though, I thought she was fantastic!
Interestingly, when I saw her Tango again in a show recently I thought it was not nearly as impressive performance-wise as it was 5 years ago. Maybe it's difficult to compare a show and a big competition like Worlds, especially since she probably didn't get to practice the program much before that show, but then one could expect she would be more free and expressive and able to bring that program to a new level with the maturity and experience she has now. Unfortunately, I didn't see it.
Anyway, I think she is a better skater overall now and even her lines got much better since, so she obviously must have been working on that, even if there is still a lot left to be desired in that department.
I would say the overriding difference (as far as scoring is concerned) is that Yuna has both a correct lutz and flip, she does them with great consistency and big GOE, and tacks a 3toe at the end of them with ease. And because her 3-3 is not 3toe-3toe, she can also add on a valuable 2A-3t in the LP , which she also does with great consistency and +GOE. This is such a HUGE scoring advantage for her, it cannot be overstated.
As has been mentioned, she doesn't have the full complement of jumps (loop is mostly awol), often makes a mistake or two, but with all these high quality 3Zs and 3Fs , and a 3-3 and a 2A-3T in the repetoire, she ends up pretty much ahead of Carolina (low base value on jumps in recent years) and Mao (low base value and/or underrotations and low GOE).
That said, I do think we got some fantastic musicality out of Mao and Carolina in recent years when the were focusing on overall program quality, sometimes at the expense of jump content. Mao's footwork this year looks tailor made for Swan Lake, Carolina's for Bolero. Yuna's looks like the same generic 'Wilson /Yuna" that could have been placed in any of her programs over the last decade. Still, Yuna's footwork is complex, fast, covers the ice and she invests her whole body into her footwork, it's just not as muscially special as the other two's. I think Carolina has the best skating skills, and Mao has the best stretch and body positions, and both invest more into distinct artistry than Yuna (what we've seen of the programs this year). These are great qualities , but they don't lead to huge scoring advantages in COP, the way Yuna's jumps do.
Five years ago, kim had not presence, such as 2009 worlds, 2010 olympics.
in 06~07, i think mao's sp was better than yuna. I think it's Mao's best program
06 ~ 07 sp, nocturn
I think yuna's best program is danse macabre.
08~09 sp, danse macabre
IMO, Mao was ahead until 06~08, yuna was better in 08~10
Anyways I have been very surprised to learn recently that Yuna is not
that well received as I thought. Her jumps are great, yes, but what made me draw into her was mesmerizing expressions and body movement in her programs. Look at the way she sells the bond girl program. The girl can do anything. And she did say after Vancouver that she wanted to improve her artistic ability to a new level which many, including myself, saw in Arirang program.
Is it that Wilson made so generic, boring programs for her? Her tango program afterall was a retouch by him--tango in her junior season is totally different from what we saw in 2007-- Lark Ascending was also his work. Given the close relationship between them, one would think that he is giving works of his best abilities to her.
Is it that Yuna is such a reserved skater that it's so difficult to be invested in her performances in general? Are judges rewarding her with high PCS--actually Yuna has been getting the highest PCS in any competition she entered since 2007-- just for the mere fact that she is landing big jumps very well?
Is it that Yuna doesn't seem to push herself enough? Or is the expectation bar too high? Is she that much artistically not talented compared to Mao and Carolina? Granted, this season these two seem to do so well with more interesting and beautiful programs than any others', probably the best ones they've had in their entire career. But I don't think Yuna's programs this season deserve that much criticisms in comparison.
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