Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by essence_of_soy, May 6, 2010.
I don't think any judge has ever deducted for that.
So how old were they at the time?
I think that's overstating the case. There may be individual judges who really hate any form of wrap, but I think in general it's just considered less than ideal form and can make a difference if a judge is debating between two adjacent GOEs.
My understanding is that the worst wrap is when the knee (as opposed to the ankle) of the free leg is crossed over the knee or thigh of the landing leg, with the hips turned in, because that kind of air position is often associated with cheated jumps.
So the judges (and, now, tech panels) will be on the lookout for underrotation and penalize that.
Skaters with that technique rarely master triple jumps and rarely reach the elite levels, but it's more common at lower levels with "double" jumps from skaters who don't get very far off the ice.
Crossing the free ankle higher up also makes it harder for the skater to achieve the rotation because the air position is less tight and therefore a bit slower, but if the skater achieves enough height in the jump and clearly completes the rotation in the air, the only real objection would be that it doesn't look as attractive.
I suppose the opposite issue would be that skaters who do cross the free ankle at the landing ankle may land with the free foot so close to the ice that it's hard to tell whether it touches down or not. I'd bet many skaters who develop a wrap do so to avoid two-footing.
So does that ever happen in roller skating, and are roller judges especially hard on two-foot landings?
Actually, I don't think the roller judges are very hard on the 2 foot landings as long as they are "controlled," so to speak. Roller is much easier than ice in certain respects. Cheated jumps "count" so to speak as long as the cheat is "good." (That is: A clean, sharp, balanced 3 turn). A triple like this would count more than a "clean" double, but less than a "clean" triple. I believe this is to encourage the higher level skaters to try the triples instead of staying with doubles.....Since the skates are heavier (about 4-5 lbs each) the women rarely are able to land clean triples, (also, as I mentioned, many of the women have a wrap). Tanja Romano (Artistic Roller Ladies' World Champion) is a notable exception. Clean triples. No wrap. It is also a bit harder to land jumps on roller because there is no edge to "catch" you if you lean too far to the outside. If you are on too deep of an outside edge you will simply "slip" right off of it.
I always had a wrap around my chin. So 2 foot landings were never an issue (unless I actually slipped off the takeoff edge and had to save myself. Then, those 2 foot landings were not pretty....or around....)
OK. This World Class Roller Champion is the King of all Wrappers.
http://<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZuDEqtT56I&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8ZuDEqtT56I&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
....But he is awesome!!! 3flip-loop-loop-3loop. Nice!!! And just look at those heel camels. Wow!! He has a Sasha spiral too (I'm talking full split.) Ouch!!!
Strange. In his long combo (2axel-loop-3toe-loop-half loop-3sal) he doesn't wrap at all??? But he wraps the other jumps. Weird.
Yes, very big wrap ! impressive that he is still able to rotate so fast, without any speed going into jumps !
Yes, that is one of the major differences between ice and roller. The floor (wood and/or concerete) creates so much friction that the skater looses his/her speed very quickly. Add to this the fact that most roller skaters nowdays just don't pay attention to skating fast (they have gotten used to long set ups and jumping almost from a stand still. It is a bad trend that has, unfortunately, taken over since the 1990s).
Back to the wrap....
I was still wondering if the wrap technique (rotating the jump from top to bottom rather than "snappng" with the hips and rotating from bottom to top has anything to do with a gender difference. Wider hips maybe?) Of course there are exceptions, (I just linked to videos of 2 male roller champions that wrapped), but it seems that wrap is far more common among females. All of the ice skaters that have been mentioned in this thread so far have been women. Now, it's true that there is a greater number of girls skating in the first place, but even taking that into account, it seems that wrap is much more prevalent among girls/women, (especially if left up to their own preference like on roller). Interesting.....
Yup... Midori Ito for me
Wow I never seem a roller championship. Are they still have competition like that these days? How come we never seen it on t.v or news?
Yes, artistic roller (which is what they call figure skating on roller) has a US Nationals and Worlds (but it's not in the Olympics). It used to be a lot bigger in the US during the late 70s and early 80s (there was even talk of getting us into the Summer Olympics.) But since then the roller craze has died down and many of the rinks have closed. The artistic clubs have all but disappeared. The Italians pretty much rule this sport. (One of their men, Luca, was the first to land the 3axel on roller. I have heard some of their men are working on quads.) The far East is beginning to show some interest (China and Tawain), also Australlia is pretty big thanks to the efforts of Jayson Suttcliffe (World Champion) there......But here in the US it is almost gone now. If anyone has tallent they go to ice (Tara Lipinski, Caydee Dayney etc.) There are pleanty of vids up on youtube if you are interested.
Just search: artistic, roller, world class
I guess the reason why it isn't on TV is that there is no audience ($) in it. Basically, I'd compare it to soccer. Americans like American football not soccer, and they like their figure skating on ice because.....well, that's the way it is supposed to be.... Roller skating is for disco and derby not figure skating. That is ice skating.
Yay roller! I have coached it for 20 years plus up to world level. There is a youtube vid of Pierluca Tocca doing a quad toe, first we've seen with correct technique. Back to wraps, check out this vid from 1985 US Nationals Snr Ladies event.
Janna Jenson was called "the combination kid". Her first 9 jump combo contains numerous leg wraps up around her neck. I could do double toe with or without a leg wrap, with made it so hard to control, and it was so hard to get any more rotation in that position.
I love Janna!! And that quad is amazing.
I don't know why ice is so down on wrap. As you know, at least back in the 80s, roller didn't consider it "bad" technique. Why do you think ice is so particular about this point????!!! I know it is less aerodynamic....But then, I would think that since it's harder to rotate the jumps, then those that do should get even more points. Makes sense to me.....
And don't get me started on their testing structure.
Check out Rolaboi's circus act video in this "trash can" section under Very Cool Circus Act. It's awesome!
Do you still skate or coach on ice or roller? Or are you retired?
I've been looking for an excuse to post this vid.
Quad roller champ, Roberto Riva, demos incredible jumping technique and posture in single jumps:
here is the version w doubles and triples:
This one shows jumps and spins:
3axels on rollers:
I can't find the vid of a quad jump (toe loop?) on roller skates. Will post if I find it.
It's 1/2 rotation short and he steps out of it at the end....But the speed of rotation is incredible!! (And, as you know, it is harder to land on roller). No wrap here, that's for sure.
Quad Toe (ok. Triple and 1/2 toe), on roller: http://<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/blPrpSHsDPs&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/blPrpSHsDPs&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
Still coach on roller 6 days a week, haven't coached on ice for a couple of years. Roller Worlds are in Portugal this year which I've never been to. Whoo hoo!
You'll love it here!
Where can I find information about these championships?
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