"Wuzrobbed" vs. "Different Opinions"

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by attyfan, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. SmallFairy

    SmallFairy Well-Known Member

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    I was going to mention that!! Sasha was sooooooo robbed! and I adored both skaters to death!

    Sasha clearly skated better that night, I was there live, and not only did he skate brilliantly in the FS, both his QR and the SP was flawless too. I remember Yags trying several times to complete his 3l, without any luck...mostly doubles IIRC
     
  2. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Let me clarify that when I say "good speed" I am more or less referring to continuous speed and flow throughout a program. Not, "let me zoom from one end of the rink to the other for a two-footed jump, then rest for 30 seconds in the middle so I can do it again."

    I also agree that Oksana was a super star with tremendous dance ability and charisma. If only she had been able to perform those skills while skating...
     
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  3. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Even Yags, himself, basically admitted that this result was wrong in an interview where he said (paraphrasing) "In a few years, no one will remember the competition, just that I was the 2002 European champion."
     
  4. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    It's good to clarify what you mean by good speed, but I think the judging system in place at the time referred to skating speed, by reference to changes in speed being important (to match the music), speeding up quickly and effortlessly etc ice coverage. Most 90s 6.0 programmes had the "slow section" in the middle to allow skaters to show this off.
     
  5. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Yes, ONE slow section, not THREE. Also, during their rest spots, the other skaters were still moving and demonstrating edge qualities and skating skills.
     
  6. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Entire post:
    :respec:
     
  7. floskate

    floskate Vacant

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    While in general I agree with much of this analysis, when it came time to skate the LP in Lillehammer Nancy absolutely had IT in spades! The whole attack at Nationals and the ensuing media hyperbole made her - along with Harding - possibly one of the most recognised women on the planet at that time. She was somehow elevated from this workmanlike status to instant superstar and then she went out and skated pretty much the best LP of her career under phenomenal pressure with a star quality she had not possessed up until that point.

    Of course this has been flogged to death and clearly will continue to be debated until time immemorial :lol: however, your assessment of Kerrigan as opposed to Baiul does not really apply at that time when they came to skate the LP in 1994 due to the preceding events.

    I was never a fan of either (although when they worked, Kerrigan's jumps really were beautiful), but on that night in that arena Kerrigan skated better. End of. Whatever the reasons for her placement - the doubled flip, the meltdown in Prague a year earlier, the scandal even - she was better than Baiul when it mattered but the judges did not recognise this.

    I remember a great documentary about Olga Korbut where a journalist who was present assessed that while she may have not been the most gifted athlete competing, a series of events conspired to make her a star and she performed beyond her own abilities for however brief a moment. I kind of think the same when it comes to Nancy in Lillehammer.
     
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  8. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    ^^^
    You spoke for me, floskate.
     
  9. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Me, too.
     
  10. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    me three. Funny...when I saw this thread yesterday I had my reply all typed out-and I used Nancy/Tonya as "wuzrobbed" and I had "Kwan/Lipinski" as difference of opinion...but I never hit send because my 4 month old started crying. Ahhh infants! Keeping me from all my message board fun.
     
  11. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Add another to the SASHA WUZ ROBBED AT EUROS list!

    I re-watched the video the other day, and when the marks come up, they cut to a shot of Yags, and he didn't look happy at all, just shaking his head. I think everyone in that arena except the judges knew Sasha should have won.

    Sasha Abt was also robbed in the SP at SLC. How his clean, awesome SP ended up below Plushy's splat-the-quad (but otherwise flawless) SP I don't know. Sasha should have been at least third. Maybe the judges were just terrified that they might end up with a Russian 1-2-3 on American soil! :lol:
     
  12. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Underrotated Lutz :(
     
  13. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I've often criticized Plush, but I actually think his 02 SLC sp is some of the best presentation he's ever done. Maybe falling on the quad eliminated his arrogrance and allowed him to give a more intimate performance, idk but taking into consideration that and (as MR FAN pointed out) sasha's lutz was badly cheated...I don't have a problem with that placement.
     
  14. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Oh, I agree that what followed after the fall was absolutely flawless and wonderful. It was just that the fall...I have a big hang-up on skaters doing well despite falling. In fact, I think the 2002 SLC SP was the best presentation of that program he ever did.

    Now here's the thing. After enduring Scott Hamilton bashing Sasha all through the SP once (including his insistence that the 3Lz was cheated), I went back and watched the lutz many times. I still don't see that it was cheated. I've seen worse not get marked down.
     
  15. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    SASHA ABT WUZ ROBBED AT EUROS!!!

    :soapbox::mitchell::wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed
     
  16. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I can't see an under-rotation on the lutz at all.

    He had an off balance landing on the 3A and while he didn't actually touch the ice his hand went down towards the ice.

    His flying camel had a wobble on it and required a re-centering on the landing.

    But I still think both of those errors leave less deductions than Evgeny's fall on the quad and I can't see why they would have differnt BVs to start with.
     
  17. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zipCnbnxp4 He slipped off the toe, similarly to how Michelle Kwan did on the flip in her short program at those games, which caused less height than normal and an obvious turn on the landing. His axel was pretty rough, too.
     
  18. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    That's the one I watched and I can't see a cheat in real time at all, there wasn't a slow mo of it at the end either.
     
  19. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    It wouldn't be the first time judges said incredibly stupid things.

    After the free skate in Salt Lake City, several judges explained their votes quite poorly. The ITA judge said Michelle Kwan "didn't look fresh."

    He added, ''Slutskaya, her jumps are high. But last night, she was a little bit afraid. She was not so fluid. Sometimes, in the landing of a jump, she was stiff. I found she had few connecting steps. So the whole program, compared to the other three American skaters, she was slower in using her music. But what can I say? I was sure about first place, but I had to think about the next three.''

    I'm glad that he put some thought into it.

    And then there was the Canadian judge: ''I thought there was no question from my point of view who was in first place -- Sarah Hughes,'' Islam said. ''Sarah was the performance of the evening for me, technically and on the second mark as well. Michelle and Irina, you could have gone either way...''[/B]

    It is interesting to learn that people who decided the Olympics might not be qualified to post on FSU.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/23/s...-are-able-to-explain.html?pagewanted=2&src=pm
     
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  20. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I assume that they would have worded their explanations differently if the audience they had been addressing were FSU readers, or the ISU technical committee, or trial judges they were supposed to be training, rather than New York Times readers.

    Even so, especially under 6.0 but still with most aspects of the PCS and some aspects of the GOEs, judges may experience all the qualitative aspects of a performance as a gestalt and not be very good at articulating their perceptions and thought processes into words.
     
  21. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Different opinions I guess :lol: It seems pretty blatant to me. That, the really sloppy axel, and slow skating are enough to justify his placement for me.
     
  22. misskarne

    misskarne #ForzaJules #KeepFightingMichael

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    Me neither! ;)

    The axel wasn't really that bad. Yes, he pitched forward on the landing. He didn't put a hand down, he didn't fall, he got the arms and leg out. As for the speed, he's actually quite fast, but it LOOKS slow because he's got those lovely long legs and such lovely soft knees and wonderful edges.

    As for the lutz, I paid special attention to his feet when I watched it again this time, and his landing foot is actually straight. He doesn't do any turn on the ice at ALL. He immediately gets into his outside edge after the flat landing, and pushes his free leg out, which creates the ILLUSION of a turn, but there isn't actually a turn.

    Overall I love the program. I think it's awesome. Unusual, fun, technically comparable to the programs the other Russians were doing.

    And he looks like he's having a ball while he's skating, which always makes it better.
     
  23. JockProf

    JockProf New Member

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    Robbed: Caryn Kadavy in the short program at the 1988 Olympics.
     
  24. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but it's a moot point since she withdrew. Too bad they didn't send Harding instead. She skated a much better free program at Nationals than Caryn, who was a total wreck.
     
  25. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I still think that program should have beaten Yagudin's free skate. I think the judges would have marked those two programs differently if Plushy had been top 3 after the SP. However, after the pairs fiasco, the judges wanted a clear winner, so they gave the first place marks to Yagudin since he was going to win whether first or second in the Free. (I say this as one who was rooting for Yags and not generally fond of Plushy's style.)

    Still, had Plushy been in a position to win after the SP, he may not have delivered such a good freeskate.

    This series of of terms kind of explains in a nutshell why Abt often did not get the marks one might expect just looking at his element list.

    I always enjoyed Abt because (apart from being good looking) he was stylish and a bit quirky, but his skating always looked ready to fail at any second. He just did not exude command the way skaters like Yags & Plushy do. (Make that did, IMO Plushy in Calgary looked less in command than he used to.)

    I think a lot of the results that make us cry wuzrobbed, undermarked or overmarked derive from basic skating technique. Judges love skaters with clean edges, effortless, powerful stroking and good speed and they will often reward those things to produce results that go beyond the jump count and specific elements. I think that is why Kostner so often seems gifted by the judges. She is effortlessly fast.

    Some of these differences don't show up until you see the skaters in person. The other thing I notice more in person is the ease and control on jumps. Lots of guys can rotate and land a double axel, but none of his peers made it look so big and pretty and clean as Robin Cousins could. 18 years later, you could say the same about Kulik's triple axel. It is no surprise the judges loved both these skaters. I know there was a lot else about these two incredibly musical skaters to set them apart, but I mention the ease of the jumps as things that may not be clearly seen on TV (and especially not on youtube videos).
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2011
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