"Wuzrobbed" vs. "Different Opinions"

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by attyfan, Jul 11, 2011.

  1. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    Inspired by another thread:

    Do you distinguish between the two? If so, what factors do you consider before thinking that "Skater X wuzrobbed" as opposed to "reasonable minds can have different opinions"
     
  2. purple skates

    purple skates Shadow dancing

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    If we are talking about my favorite skater, than it's wuzrobbed. If it's yours, then we can have different opinions. :D

    That was said jokingly, but I think there's a lot of truth in that statement. If you don't have an emotional attachment to the skater (or baseball team or gymnast or whatever) in question, it is easier to be open minded.
     
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  3. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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  4. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    Different opinions: Chen/Kwan in 96 or Kwan/Lipinski in 98.

    Wuzrobbed: Kerrigan (who I can't stand) over Baiul in 94.
     
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree with those examples.

    I understand why Baiul won and I don't think there was necessarily any funny business going on. I just think that the nature of the ordinal system, the lack of instant replay or other mechanism for verifying the more verifiable objective facts about the skating, and the emotional preferences of the judges allowed for a result that's hard to justify in sporting terms.

    Instant replay and technical panels and clearer guidelines for how much each skill is worth under IJS make an inherently subjective process a little more objective. But there are still going to be situations where I disagree with the majority of judges or with several decisions by the tech panels.

    Or more often I'll disagree with the way the Scale of Values and the factoring for the various PCS are structured in general, or how they happen to work out for a particular skater in relation to others in that event. I.e., weightings structurally built into each year's version of the IJS.

    Even if I agree with the judges' marks and the tech panels calls, if a beautifully skated program lost because of downgrades on a few not-very-cheated jumps that looked clean to the naked eye in real time, for example, I may disagree with the result because I disagree with how severely the system punished that particular error. At least the new 70% base value for those jumps mitigates that problem.
     
  6. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

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    I think that's it, in a nutshell. :D
     
  7. bek

    bek Guest

    All I feel is that i don't want a system where someone can win with four falls total, over others who are good skaters but were much cleaner.

    Execution needs to matter somewhat in this system. And falling 3 times in one program is not a grand example of good execution.

    IJS does do some good things but overal impression of a program should matter.
     
  8. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Or more recently, Nagasu/Flatt. ;)
     
  9. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    2010 Nationals? That's exactly an example of my last paragraph above, where the officials on both the tech panel and judging panel were just doing their jobs and the downgrade rules made the difference.

    Unless we want the judges to try to second guess Scale of Values and inflate the marks for the skater they enjoy more or think the public would probably rather see win.
     
  10. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    I was thinking about PCS marks, mainly.
     
  11. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I've heard numourous times that Oksana won because most of the judges didn't notice she two-footed one of her jumps (I can't remember exactly, but I think it was the flip).
     
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ The one of the judges said he didn't notice Nancy's 3/3.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2011
  13. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    If those are reasons for the 1994 Ladies' results, then the judges clearly shouldn't be judging the competition. If they were competent, it certainly didn't show.
     
  14. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Are you for real?
     
  15. olifaunt

    olifaunt New Member

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    ITA, and it looks like in theory COP agrees too, what with the performance/execution mark...however Patrick received 7.61 for his P/E mark in the SP. Second highest of the night, only .07 points behind Oda's score - and Oda won the SP! And again at Cup of Russia, his freeskate P/E score was the second highest of the night, barely .2 points behind Verner, even though he had three falls and Verner skated clean.

    I'm not going to deny that Patrick is an amazing skater (his freeskate at Canadian nationals this year was jaw-dropping), but some of the PCS scores he got this season are, to speak frankly, insane and unfair.
     
  16. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I think B/S & S/P in 2002 can fall under "Different opinions", but someone's going to get me for that.
     
  17. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    These are probably the same judges who did see a step sequence or two somewhere in Baiul's long program. :shuffle:
     
  18. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    That and what gkelly said.

    I remember watching it on television and I couldn't tell right away if Oksana had two-footed.

    I've also heard that the programs looked very different live than on television (or on video tape). Some judges mentioned that Oksana had much more speed and charisma, as opposed to Nancy who, while she skated well, looked a bit slow and, let's face it, her choreography did have something to be desired. And with no instant replay, I can see how the outcome was what it was. Also, remember that Nancy did double a flip and underrotated a 3lz.

    Not saying I agree with the outcome, but it did appear to be closer than it probably should have been (after all of us watching a billion times over the last 17 years).
     
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's not that difficult to distinguish between the two. And even if we aren't happy with a result, I don't think we say our favorite has been wuzrobbed if there is no debate !
    The problem is when it could have gone either way.
     
  20. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    As I said earlier, NOT a Kerrigan fan, but there is a lot of misinformation in this thread.
    1) Oksana two-footed TWO jumps (a toe and a flip). She doubled the first attempt at the 3toe, and threw one in at the end, causing her to end late with a sloppy 2a/2t as her only combination.

    2)Nancy skated with good speed, and did NOT under-rotate a triple lutz, she landed a clean one in the back half of the program.

    3)Oksana had good speed?? The "program" has three resting spots where she "dances" at center ice at a whopping 0mph. Oksana definitely had more artistic potential than Nancy, but her skills were not apparent in that horrid LP that should have had spin and step deductions.
     
  21. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    I'm out of reps for you, but "thanks", well said..
     
  22. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

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    Rep delivered - for both of us.
     
  23. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    Ironically, looking back, I thought Lu Chen wuzrobbed in 1994. Nancy and Oksana both had less technical content than her.

    Oksana Baiul would have been cool to have around for those 4 extra years too if she hadn't have won. I really believe it would have been better for her in the long run...
     
  24. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    As far as I recall, both of the above statements are true.

    Well, obviously you can't count the posing sections in the skating, especially regarding speed. If you average out the ice speed over the 4 minutes of the program, more time spent not skating would lead to a lower average.

    But when someone says a skater had good speed, that refers primarily to the time spent actually skating. And Baiul did skate with good speed when she was skating. I watched the short program at the 94 Olympics live and I can say with firsthand authority that Baiul was fast and exciting in the SP. I had returned home from Norway by the day of the long program and watched on TV, so I can only infer that her speed was good that day, but I think it's more likely than not that it was.

    (Also, when I saw her live at Champions on Ice about 6 years later when she was well past her prime, she was faster than both Kwan and Slutskaya, for whatever that's worth. Again, doubtless more simple crossovers to achieve that speed, but the actual speed was outstanding.)

    Of course it helps if much of that time spent skating is spent specifically doing crossovers, which are the most efficient way to gain speed. But that kind of speed is one thing that is rewarded. So is getting from a standstill up to full speed in just a few strokes, e.g., efficiency in "going from 0 to 60" as is said about cars.

    So speed is one area of technique where Baiul was especially strong, other weaknesses aside.

    Remember in 1994 there were no well-balanced program requirements as we know them now or even in the late 90s/early 2000s. There were limits on repeating jumps and rules about jump combinations or sequences that could incur deductions if violated, but at the time there were no requirements for spins and steps in the free program and therefore no deductions to be taken. The number or absence of those elements and their quality, good or bad, would factor into the technical merit mark in a wholistic sense, but it was up to each judge individually to decide how to reward or penalize.

    Deductions were primarily a short program concept.
     
  25. Matryeshka

    Matryeshka Well-Known Member

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    Most of the time when I re-watch a competition, my opinion changes from wuzrobbed to different opinions. One exception where every time I see it, my wuzrobbed opinion grows stronger is Winkler/Lohse. I can't imagine how they finished higher than tenth in the LP portion.

    I think the most recent example of different opinion when I first saw it was this year's men's bronze medalist, but I think that's usually the case for singles. In a typical competition, usually you can justify 3-7 getting the third spot.
     
  26. MR-FAN

    MR-FAN Kostner Softie

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    Wuzrobbed: Slutskaya over Kwan in 01-02 GPF. I don't think I'll ever get what was going through the judges' heads.

    Different Opinions: Kerrigan over Ito at 91 worlds. I could kind of see what some judges might have thought, but I just can't agree with it (could... some... might have... boy am I in denial :p )
     
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  27. Louise

    Louise Banned Member

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    I would put Oksana/Nancy in the differing opinions spot. Oksana had "IT" to the max. She took the ice and commanded it. She was faster than Kerrigan could ever hope to be in just a few strokes. Her spins were faster and more interesting. Her lutz was a thing of beauty, so huge. Nancy was very workmanlike in her approach, but just didn't have charisma IMO. Nancy was like an interchangable Tonia Kwiatkowski back then. Sure most of the time made the jumps, always a mistake, choreo and music bleh, but hair perfectly in place with a prettied up spangly dress.

    You really just had to see them skate side by side to get the difference between Oksana and Nancy. Oksana screamed superstar and was entrancing. Nancy was the hard working understudy IMO. Sometimes the star has a REALLY off day and the Understudy does a better job. But when the star of the show is still very very good, the understudy really has to knock it out of the park. Opening up on her first jump is what cost Nancy. And her lutz did look a bit ur'd but back then it didn't seem to matter. But Nancy didn't knock it out of the park. JMO.
     
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  28. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    I guess that's what makes the sport fun...I believe the exact opposite on every point.
     
  29. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Whoa there. I too think Nancy deserved the win.

    Totally agree with you on the first point.

    Nancy's speed: take it up with the judges who claimed that Nancy looked slow in comparison to Oksana. As for the lutz, there was definitely some turning on the ice. Her other triples were clean as a whistle. As others have noted here, Oksana was a VERY speedy skater (when not posing). No misinformation there.

    As for Oksana's posing, I actually don't mind posing here and there. Nancy did a bit of it herself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2011
  30. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Except Euros 2002! Abt wuzrobbed by Yags (my favourite skater!).