Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by iarispiralllyof, Mar 20, 2013.
We are ready to bust out store windows and flip cars over.
In context it is outrageous. People are screaming about Chan's scores when Chan skates poorly and still wins titles. When did Michelle Kwan ever get handed title after title when she was making multiple major errors... Of course nationalism and favortism plays a role. But it use to be that the favorites at least had to skate somewhat decently... Now they don't even have to do that.
She fell once and won the world title....But she didn't fall twice and have another bad stumble. Chan had two falls and another similar bad stumble that cost Kwan the Olympics...
Kwan's only World title with any mistake was the weak watered down 98 Worlds after the Olympics. She won the title and the LP with a doubled triple salchow and a fall on a double axel, and 6 clean triples. She still would have lost the LP to either/both Slutskaya and Butyrskaya had Slutskaya not fallen on a triple flip and turned out of 2 other jumps (and had horrible artistry then) and had Butyrskaya not taken a huge jarring fall near end that ruined the last 40 seconds of her program. Slutskaya and Butyrskaya still both beat her on technical scores.
Who is this F-er who speaks ill of the Kween????
Please Kwan skated more clean programs in one season than Yu-Na has skated in her entire career.
The Fall of HomeSense. The Siege of Indigo.
Oh boy has this guy opened up a can of worms. LOL
What's Yuna got to do with this article?
You make it sound like I misrepresented the contents of the entire article. But in fact that paragraph I quoted basically sums up the entire article quite nicely. If anything your interpretation of the article comes out of left field.
I don't think anyone here denies that nationalism plays a role in judging. But the article isn't talking about nationalistic judging in general. It explicitly references Americans' double standard in regards to a specific skater, Michelle, and how the author thinks that justifies Patrick Chan's current inflated scores and competition results. And that claim has no basis.
This. I can only think of one world title - 1998 - where she fell in the free.
Why? The author if the article is making up lies. There is probably only one competition everyone can agree on that Michelle probably should not have won, and that is Skate America in 1999 where she received a 6.0 for a program with a fall, and nationalism was not even a factor in that competition because the skater who "suffered" from her being held up was Sarah Hughes, another American.
All of her world titles were deserved as well as her other non gold world medals. (Silver in 1997, 1999 and bronze in 2004). As others have pointed out there were even titles won where the judges were saving room for skaters who were skating later and scored her below what she really probably deserved. (2000 and 2001 LP's). 3 of her 5 titles were won with 7 clean triples in her long program and the other two she had 6 clean triples. 1998 was the only LP with mistakes.
YOU SMELL DESPERATE AND DEFENSIVE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hughes' free skate at 1999 Skate America was a disaster. She fell at least twice. There's a case to be made for Hughes at 2001 Skate America, however, and that was a controversial win for Kwan.
I think you are thinking of another Skate America, because while it's true that Michelle received a 6.0 for her free skate with a fall, it was a clearly superior program -- Sarah Hughes' free skate was only fourth (Soldatova and Sokolova placed 2nd and 3rd). So perhaps you were thinking of Skate America 2001 -- I seem to recall there being a lot of "outrage" about that result in some quarters (Sarah Hughes was 2nd).
Kwan could not have lost the LP to the skater 2nd or 3rd in the SP and won.
Kwan's 5.9s and 6.0s were rankings, not cumulative points.
THANK YOU! She was one of the most reliable athletes ever. Was she held up in Nagano?
Just a fall out of a double axel in 98.... She was usually very clean when she won her World Titles. In fact a few times (2 maybe) she was coming from behind and other skaters had to make mistakes. This writer is a joke.
Exactly in 2000 and 2001 she had to skate lights out with a triple-triple, 7 triples, amazing speed, and artistry and still wait for Irina and Maria to make mistakes, and in 2000 finish in the right order to boot, to win. Her performances were worthy of 5.9s technically and 6.0s artistically but due to a number of factors didnt get a single one in either. In 1996 she had to beat one of the all time great performances by Chen and throw an extra triple at the end to do it. 1998 was the only Worlds she won with an imperfect skate, but still a very good one, and it was a weakish Worlds that year.
As a Canadian I can tell you that Cam Cole is a notorious Kwan hater though. In 2005 after Irina's 2nd World title he wrote that atleast 3 of Michelle's World title should have gone to Irina (thus atleast 3 out of 1996, 1998, 2000, and 2001, though I highly doubt he gave that statement any in depth thought or any particular years, and just pulled it out of his ass). He griped about her scores on many other occasions and talked about her spell on the judges. He even once implied the only difference between Jennifer Robinson and Michelle was hype and judging favortism. He isnt really much of a skating expert, he also whined for years Elvis Stojko was grossly undermarked (while I respect Stojko greatly, some have suggested the opposite at times).
If Chan were scored like Michelle Kwan his only World title would have been 2011 (which is how it should have been anyway).
All I want to say is in that competition (Skate America 1999), Kwan could've fallen three times and I still probably would've placed her over Soldatova.
Kwan deserved all her World and National titles, really, no contest.
There was definitely some controversy over her first-place finishes in the 1998 and 2002 short programs - especially 2002 - but she's also been low-balled on marks, like the 2000 Worlds freeskate and 2001-02 Grand Prix Final.
Mr. Cole writes
Um...that's right, it wasn't.
I had never seen it used before when I used it. But I can't be positive I was the first one to make it up- I don't go on other boards. There was a lot of discussion in the Canadian Nats thread about Patrick's scores being inflated. in defense of Patrick, someone said something like "scores are inflated at every country's Nationals; just watch and you will see that the US men scores will be just as inflated." Jeremy skated the SP early and very well and got a big score, but not as big as Patrick's. So I said Not Chanflation but it is early.it definitely was about Nationals inflation. Then it took on a life of its own. Sorry Patrick.
Kwan's performance of her Red Violin FS at the 1999 Skate America was sublime, and I can see why it deserved a 6.0 for artistry. Everything flowed so well and just felt so right; aside from the fall on the flip and the iffy landing on the loop, it really was perfect and I actually prefer the performance aspect of it to the one she delivered at Worlds. On the TV broadcast, they actually showed a shot of Hughes watching with her coach immediately after Kwan had finished and Hughes looked totally blown away by what she had witnessed, so I doubt I'm alone in my opinion and that Hughes felt she was cheated of the title.
Kwan was somewhat hit and miss with me, some years I loved her skating, other years I found her incredibly ::. That being said she was on the World podium so often,as many others have already posted, because she was a consistent skater period.
But I think my real issue with the article when it comes to "inflation" is that it ignores that under the Ordinal system which Kwan competed , marks were placeholders and nothing more. Under OBO, if one judge gave her a 5.9 and all the rest of the judges gave her 5.7s, yet that judge has her ranked in line with what the rest of the judges did, that judge's "overscoring" doesn't really count for much. It could have been that the judge in question merely had base marks of.2 higher across the board.
In Patrick Chan's case, criticisms hold a bit more water because we're dealing with real numbers.
I think Kwanita (Mrs. Pell) would soundly disapprove of such behavior, jamesy. After all, she's the U.S. State Department's Public Diplomacy Envoy.
In any case, even while competing within the sport, MK was head-and-shoulders above it. These days, she's quite clearly beyond it and successfully involved with other life-changing pursuits. Apparently, the sport itself can't ever forget her or get beyond her pure and hard-won magnificence. Kween will probably continue to be the touchstone, the standard, the unifier and the divider, the victor, the vilified yet respected, the one-and-only, the reason and the excuse for everything that gets detractors' and ubers' blood boiling ... PURPLE!
AFAIK, Chan and Kwan have in common the fact of their Chinese heritage, and that they are both human beings, and that they are both hard-working champion figure skaters. Probably any other resemblance or similarity especially in terms of their skating competitions and careers is a coincidental figment of the writer's imagination.
Tsk, tsk Peter! That's not even close to being subtle!
Speaking of smelly smells, I'm getting more than a whiff of something rotten and smelly decomposing in the state of figure skating.
Especially in Denmark I hear.
I never remember a controversy over her OLY sp in 98. She won the judges 8-1.
Yeah sorry, I was thinking of 2001 Skate America, not 1999. People all over the place were in an uproar because Sarah did not win and the media was acting like Michelle made herself win.
Actually both SA 2000 and 2001 involved a flawed Kwan beating a clean Hughes. At the time I felt Kwan deserved the win both years. I am much more convinced about that now.
IMO the only controversy over the 1998 SP was putting Tara over Maria. The 2nd mark was especially ridiculous as Maria was miles more mature & her Fever program was IMO her best SP to that point - much better than the Swiss Miss program.
Me too. Sarah had some severe issues in many aspects of her skating. The fact that she stayed on her feet during her (cheated, pre-rotated) jumps wasn't enough to win. In fact, many of her placements were iffy to me. In fact, the 2001 GPF is the only time (including the 2002 Olys) I thought her win over Michelle & Irina was appropriate.