writer rips kwan in relation to chanflation, and implies that nationalism is a factor

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by iarispiralllyof, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    :eek::rolleyes::mad: :kickass::kickass::kickass::kickass::lynch::lynch::angryfire:angryfire:angryfire

    an excerpt from the article:

    read the full thing here:

    http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/winter-sports/Canada Patrick Chan/8110443/story.html

    an almost identical article (except for slight differences in 1 small section)
    http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Americans Chanflation over Chans/8113594/story.html
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  2. luenatic

    luenatic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    2,495
  3. Sylvia

    Sylvia Whee, summer club comps!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,213
    Aside: Did the term 'Chanflation' originate here on FSU or elsewhere, anyone know? The earliest usage of the word here was by Rob during 2010 U.S. Nationals, and I believe it referred to Chan's nationally inflated scores at 2010 Canadians?

    ETA:
    1 Patrick Chan CO 90.14 177.88 268.02
    (No quad attempts in either program and the competition took place in... London, Ontario.)
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  4. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2001
    Messages:
    17,469
    Blah. All this talk of figure skating needing saving - let's start by getting rid of these stupid reporters and their sensationalist headlines, constant need to create controversy, and imaginary rivalries. There's so much to talk about in skating, and yet this nonsense is what gets all the attention. Blah.
    Smiley0884, kittyjake5, RFOS and 5 others like this.
  5. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,229
    Kwan was not winning titles with 4 mistakes. Her strength was in delivering a near perfect SP& LP every time. That's what won her those 5 world titles. This is not even close.
  6. my little pony

    my little pony snarking for AZE

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2005
    Messages:
    30,410
    this article smells a little desperate and defensive
  7. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,207
    Savchenko and Szolkowy skated poorly in the short?
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,494
    I wonder if the American writer friend was Christine Brennan.

    ETA: And if being able to land a throw triple axel in the last few seconds of a program is a "poor performance", I want to do that badly too.
  9. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    doesn't brennan always worship michelle though
  10. jamesy

    jamesy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,988
    Oh hell to the no! :mitchell: :mitchell: :mitchell:
  11. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2002
    Messages:
    524
    If they were beaten by D/R they certainly did by their standards...
  12. hirshey girl

    hirshey girl New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2003
    Messages:
    1,377
    Maybe it was a writer who wasn't invited to her wedding. :D
  13. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,172
    Honestly, I haven't read the article in it's entirety or any of the other Chan threads so I apologize if this isn't completely on topic. But you know what? That's an indicator in and of itself. I usually try to read articles and threads before posting. Now I don't give a damn. I've been mulling about this for a few days and it's just not leaving my mind. This absurd result is killing figure skating. It's a tragedy when someone like me, who has been passionately involved in figure skating almost my whole life, whether as a competitor, fan, or coach, doesn't even want to bother with it any more. I'm well versed in COP. I know where the numbers came from. I've seen Patrick skate. I've shared ice with him. I still don't agree with what happened.

    People complain about sensationalistic headlines and all that nonsense but is a bonafide controversy, not just someone stirring the pot. This is a travesty and I'm devastated that a sport I love so much is going down the drain like this. So many people I've spoken to over the past few days, in person or on facebook, share the same opinion, whether it's non-skaters, kids at the rink, long time coaches, or high-level competitors I've met over the years. I've yet to meet one who thinks this result is good for the sport. So many people are upset and outraged over this.

    I've defended skating for a long time and I hate those people who make a big drama of how over it they are every time their favourite loses. This isn't like that... but I do want to say I'm pretty much over the whole sport at this point. It really pains me because of how much I truly love it. But with this judging I can't. This keeps happening time and time again and it's just getting worse and no one is doing anything about it. I'm sorry people think this is melodramatic or over the top or whatever, but I can't help it. I'm crushed.
  14. nlyoung

    nlyoung Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2002
    Messages:
    524
    It was a gutsy move and in terms of the points it gained was the reason for their silver medal. Despite a slightly shaky performance themselves, without it D/R may have ended up with the silver so yes, it was a less than stellar performance from S/S by their standards...
  15. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2005
    Messages:
    17,494
    Hmmm...come to think of it, Phil Hersh has used the term "Chanflation" on Twitter and in some of his columns :sekret:
  16. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,207
    By their standards, sure. I still think that was pretty sloppy on Cole's part, especially given how well D/R skated in that phase. Anyway, medals aren't handed out on the basis of individuals and teams meeting their respective personal bests, they're given on the basis on point totals awarded on the days of each phase of competition.
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  17. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2003
    Messages:
    11,866
    When did Michelle Kwanwin a World Championship after having fallen twice in the FS? IIRC, she never won Worlds with anything other than two clean performances.
    Bad, bad comparison.
  18. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,207
    I wonder if Cole was referring to 5.9s and 6.0s that Kwan received at other competitions--GP events, US Nats--rather than at Worlds. The only 6.0 for a performance with a fall I can think of was for her otherwise wonderful free skate at 1999 Skate America.
  19. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    In this (almost identical except for 1 section) article he specifically references her world championships:
    http://www.vancouversun.com/sports/Americans Chanflation over Chans/8113594/story.html

    His article slams the apparent American double standard when it comes to score inflation, but the thing is..most of Michelle's 6.0's were from nationals so I don't see how that fits into his narrative. If most of her 6.0's were from international events it would support his theory of an American double standard more, since that would actually affect non-American skaters. After all, most skaters receive inflated scores at their national championships vs international events
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2013
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,349
    Kwanflation only took place at the National level, and even there she deserved the 6.0s she received for some of the performances she got them. At the World level she was hardly showered with 6.0s even sometimes for outstanding performances that I feel deserved them (eg- 2000 Worlds and 2001 Worlds LP where due to her main rivals skating later she did not receive a single 6.0 for a 6.0 worthy performance). Discounting the Worlds in 2004 where all marks are discredited for obvious reasons, she received only about 6 total 6.0s at Worlds in her career (still amazing) and never more than 2 for a single program. More importantly than the 6.0s though she fully deserved every title and medal she won; well I thought Chen should have won the 96 Worlds slightly over Michelle, but that doesnt mean it was a ripoff, it obviously could have gone either way in that case. She skated absolutely beautifully for all her World titles, didnt put a foot wrong, and in 2000 and 2001 had to skate out of her skin and wait for her main rival(s) to make mistakes to win. Only one occasion she won, she made a mistake or two at the weakish 98 post Olympic Worlds where she was clearly the best over the 2 programs of anyone that event regardless. Her only ever controversial medal was the 99 Worlds, but even there she only had a fall in the short, one real mistake (a step out of her 1st triple lutz) while landing 6 triples in the long, and still barely placed 2nd in the long to barely win the silver. Never was Kwan falling 4 or 5 times and being showered with 5.9s and 6.0s and titles. Had she skated the way Chan did at the last 2 Worlds she would have only 1 or 2 World titles today. To compare Kwan to Chan is a pure insult.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  21. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,163
    This is probably the most figure skating has been in the news in ages!
  22. SGrand

    SGrand New Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Messages:
    38
    Maybe this is what it needs??? Lol!!!!
    (I kid, I kid!)
  23. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    321
    Let me tell you what's "pure insult". Your many posts were pure insults to a great talented skater!:shuffle:
  24. bek

    bek Guest

    I'm frankly trying to understand when Michelle Kwan ever won a world title with two falls another big jumping error, and then a double jump? Kwan lost major competitions for far less egregious errors than what Chan pulled. And I'm not a Kwan uber.
  25. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,246
    Word. And I am as far from a Kwan uber as it gets.
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  26. bek

    bek Guest

    And for me it has nothing to do with being an uber. I adored Yu na Kim back in 2010, but I was very upset when she got higher PCS than Asada than 2010 worlds.....I didn't need to see Yu-na win, when she was skating sub par.
  27. kosjenka

    kosjenka Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2003
    Messages:
    2,520
    When did Kwan fall and win world titles?

    I am geting too old, I simply cannot remember.
  28. hirshey girl

    hirshey girl New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2003
    Messages:
    1,377
    I can't remember either. I'd have to go back and watch, but the only one that I can recall where she had a fairly subpar skate and won was 1998 Worlds (thought the whole competition that year was pretty blah). I don't think she fell though. Don't think that was the best example that the writer could've used but she was probably the one American skater he thought people would remember. :lol:

    Went back and watched Kwan's 1998 Worlds LP. She stumbled out of a double axel and doubled a Salchow. It was not her best gold medal performance. No falls though.
    She had also won her QR, was 1st in the SP and the others (Slutskaya and Butyrskaya) were 4th and 5th in the SP. Don't think it would've been possible for them to catch up but can't really recall their LP's.
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2013
  29. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2012
    Messages:
    1,967
    I already read it in last season on internet...
  30. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2005
    Messages:
    2,696
    Wow Fsuniverse user rips two lines out of an article and decides to cause controversy. It isn't outrageous at all. It simply implies that many skaters receive favourable marks which is o.o true. Nationalism polays a huge part. In the 6.0 system you had geo-political/regional bloc voting which probably still exists only we don't know about it. Add to that skaters receive favourable marks when skating at home. Not an unknown quality in the slightest.

    I don't particularly think Kwan was favouritised but I find it plainly ridicolous that so many people can in essence be so outraged by a two line comment.
    aka_gerbil and (deleted member) like this.
  31. jamesy

    jamesy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2005
    Messages:
    9,988
    We are ready to bust out store windows and flip cars over. :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire
  32. bek

    bek Guest

    In context it is outrageous. People are screaming about Chan's scores when Chan skates poorly and still wins titles. When did Michelle Kwan ever get handed title after title when she was making multiple major errors... Of course nationalism and favortism plays a role. But it use to be that the favorites at least had to skate somewhat decently... Now they don't even have to do that.

    She fell once and won the world title....But she didn't fall twice and have another bad stumble. Chan had two falls and another similar bad stumble that cost Kwan the Olympics...
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,349
    Kwan's only World title with any mistake was the weak watered down 98 Worlds after the Olympics. She won the title and the LP with a doubled triple salchow and a fall on a double axel, and 6 clean triples. She still would have lost the LP to either/both Slutskaya and Butyrskaya had Slutskaya not fallen on a triple flip and turned out of 2 other jumps (and had horrible artistry then) and had Butyrskaya not taken a huge jarring fall near end that ruined the last 40 seconds of her program. Slutskaya and Butyrskaya still both beat her on technical scores.
  34. dots

    dots Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2002
    Messages:
    1,249
    Who is this F-er who speaks ill of the Kween???? :soapbox:

    Please Kwan skated more clean programs in one season than Yu-Na has skated in her entire career. :blah:
    kosjenka and (deleted member) like this.
  35. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,207
    The Fall of HomeSense. The Siege of Indigo. :drama:
  36. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,729
    Oh boy has this guy opened up a can of worms. LOL
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  37. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2010
    Messages:
    830
    What's Yuna got to do with this article? :rolleyes:
  38. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    O? :glamor:

    You make it sound like I misrepresented the contents of the entire article. But in fact that paragraph I quoted basically sums up the entire article quite nicely. If anything your interpretation of the article comes out of left field.
    I don't think anyone here denies that nationalism plays a role in judging. But the article isn't talking about nationalistic judging in general. It explicitly references Americans' double standard in regards to a specific skater, Michelle, and how the author thinks that justifies Patrick Chan's current inflated scores and competition results. And that claim has no basis.
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2013
  39. IceJunkie

    IceJunkie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2006
    Messages:
    2,138
    This. I can only think of one world title - 1998 - where she fell in the free.
  40. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Why? The author if the article is making up lies. There is probably only one competition everyone can agree on that Michelle probably should not have won, and that is Skate America in 1999 where she received a 6.0 for a program with a fall, and nationalism was not even a factor in that competition because the skater who "suffered" from her being held up was Sarah Hughes, another American.

    All of her world titles were deserved as well as her other non gold world medals. (Silver in 1997, 1999 and bronze in 2004). As others have pointed out there were even titles won where the judges were saving room for skaters who were skating later and scored her below what she really probably deserved. (2000 and 2001 LP's). 3 of her 5 titles were won with 7 clean triples in her long program and the other two she had 6 clean triples. 1998 was the only LP with mistakes.