Would Yamaguchi and Klimova & Ponomarenko have won 2nd Oly Gold if reinstated

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Oct 5, 2012.

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Would Yamaguchi and K/P have won 2nd Oly Gold if reinstated

  1. both would have

    41.3%
  2. Yamaguchi would have, K/P would not have

    31.7%
  3. K/P would have, Yamaguchi would not have

    14.4%
  4. both would not have

    11.5%
  5. Yamaguchi wouldnt have wno but would have flipped ordinals of Biaul vs Kerrigan

    1.0%
  1. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think they both would have since K&P were always placed ahead of G&P when they were competing. It was only after K&P retired that G&P/U&Z started to dominate. G&P weren't really in their prime yet at the '94 Olympics, either. Of course, it would have also depended on what programs they came up with, but barring a horrible program, I think K&P would have won.

    As for Kristi, I think she could have won again even if she wasn't perfect because even when not at her best, I think she was better than Nancy or Oksana - and Oksana didn't skate totally clean in that competition, either. Of course, if Kristi had a major meltdown I don't think she would have won, but barring that, yeah.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  2. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to believe that Kristi didn't want to do 94. She claims to have had her reasons, but she skated so well as a pro in 94 and would have likely medaled. I can understand skaters not wanting to stick out four years, but two - the only time this opportunity ever came in history - I just can't believe she didn't want to give it a shot.

    It's unlikely that Gillooly's henchman would have been able to whack two skaters at nationals. So it would have been either Kristi or Nancy. If it was Kristi because she was the best skater, Tonya still would have ended up in 8th place at Olys. The stress of the incident really got to Tonya combined with all her mishaps and lack of conditioning. Nancy could not have skated any better than she did, even without a knee injury.
  3. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I have to agree with this. It wasn't such a pro-Oksana vote as it was a NO WAY vote for Kerrigan.

    Yamaguchi would clearly have been the front-runner, with her two lutzes, maybe one with a 3toe. She didn't need the sal either. Kristi, the way she skated throughout that season, would probably have won easily. No question.
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  4. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I'm sort of amazed that 1993 NHK has not shown up on YT. I would have LOVED to see this comp.

    In a wildly different direction I think that if Yamaguchi reinstated, Tonya would have stepped up her training and tried to earn the national title. Instead she was up against Snow White and her faux-princessy BS that the USFS just seemed to love. I would suppose that if someone just felt that Nationals was just a pre-determined coronation, Tonya might have wanted to take Kerrigan out. If Yamaguchi was in it, and she had great skills, Tonya would trained harder and had better programs.
  5. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    Was this ever reality, or just some storyline made up by the media? Compared to Tonya, I guess Nancy was a princess? But Nancy didn't have the World's Most Graceful Skating.
  6. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Slighty off - topic, but it's good to see how a few of the winners from the current JGP series landed triple lutz / triple toe loop combinations in the ladies field.

    Off the top of my head, I can list:

    Elena Radionova (RUS)
    Angela Wang (USA)
    Satoko Miyahara (JPN)
  7. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    That's a really interesting "what-if" scenario. :) I am assuming by reinstating, she would have meant reinstating to skate pairs with Galindo. I'm not sure if Yamaguchi & Galindo could have toppled G&G or M&D in 1994. But they were a great pair team, and I think if they had continued to skate together and if Kristi focused on pairs skating instead of singles, there could have easily been a three-way contest for the bronze medal between Y&G, B&E and S&N, with any of those pairs winning the bronze.

    If Kristi decided to reinstate to skate pairs after focusing on singles skating and winning the OGM in Albertville, I'm not sure where Y&G would have ended up.
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yamaguchi & Galindo were nowhere near a team like Brasseur & Eisler at the 1990 Worlds, and B&E were alot better by 93/94 than they were in 1990. While it is impossible to know how they would have developed had they stayed together, the 1994 Olympics was way too strong a pairs event for them to have ever medaled in IMO. The 1992 Olympics, and maybe even the 1998 Olympics (if they were still amateur somehow by then) would have been their best chance.

    Meanwhile had they simply reinstated for the 94 Olympics, having been off pairs skating for over 3 years, I would say they would have done well to even get a spot on the U.S Olympic team, probably would have only since Courtland & Reynolds were so poor at Nationals that year.


    Me too. If the reports are true and Harding did skate a clean short and was only placed 7th (in a field missing a ton of skaters including Baiul and Kerrigan), and that Chen and Bonaly fell in the short and were 3rd and 4th, well I can almost see how that made her and her team temporarily lose their minds and sanity, and go on the crazy spell they went on for the next month.


    Interesting views. Very hard to guess how Harding and her mind works, but if she would be willing to motivate herself to work hard enough to try and beat Kristi, why wouldnt she be willing to motivate herself to work hard enough to try and beat Nancy, who was probably easier to beat. The USFSA did love Nancy, but they probably would have loved Kristi just as much, especialy since Kristi did what Nancy had failed to ever do at that point, bring home gold medals for the USFSA. However if the U.S had only 2 spots and Kristi and Nancy were both there, Tonya would have had no choice but to become an animal in training that season if she had any aspirations to make the Olympic team, well either that or club atleast one of them.

    Maybe you mean she thought the USFSA unfairly built up Nancy as being better than her when she felt she really wasnt even then, and it made her incredibly bitter and jaded, whereas Kristi she respected more and would have had a better attitude about giving her all for an honest and true athletic confrontation.
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
  9. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Yes, that was what I meant. It is possible that with Kristi back in the picture, the Nationals would go back to a more athletic competition, since Kristi always outjumped Nancy. So Nancy is knocked down a peg. Then you have Tonya who could potentially outjump Kristi, so would also be considered a contender. It changes the way the competition is approached. I think if Tonya was motivated to outdo Kristi she would have worked harder that season (or not, she really was a mess).

    I am still shocked that Tonya let herself go after 91 Skate America. She just needed to maintain that level for only a few more months.... Why oh why didn't she do that?
  10. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    If Tonya had medaled in 1994 would it have been stripped?
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    There was an interesting theory on FSU years ago that doubted Tonya would have pulled that stunt with Kristi. It went along the lines of Tonya respected Kristi's skating and didn't mind (though I'm sure didn't like) losing to Kristi if she had to lose. It was Nancy that drove Tonya crazy. Nancy was propped up over Tonya throughout the years, and I think 1993 Nationals and the hype between Nancy's princess packaging vs. Tonya's trailer park trash image with the USFSA playing clear favorites with Nancy who really wasn't that much better than Tonya drove Tonya at least be complicit in the whack.
  12. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Tonya probably woudtnt have if Kristi was in. Tonya may have taken it as an athletic endeavor rather than a Miss America pageant.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2012
  13. scootie12

    scootie12 New Member

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    It was so long ago now, but I also thought the big motive behind the whack was primarily due to the fact that there were 2 spots for the Olympic team, and there was a possibility Tonya could have been pushed off one of those spots based on her track record up until that point.

    I have a feeling if Kristi stayed in and won a medal at '93 Worlds, the US would have 3 spots (also based on Nancy's placement), and in some sense, making the team would be more of a non-issue. I think she was basically a shoe-in for a 3rd spot if it was available at the time.

    Considering Tonya had a good showing at Skate America in the SP (1st place over a slightly flawed Oksana), and a decent showing in the LP (up until the blade problem), I think she proved she was certainly capable of placing in the top 3 at nationals, and also showed she was taking training more seriously. Also, based on her actual performance at Nationals, she would have easily been in the top 3.

    Lastly, if I recall correctly, Tonya did not skate well in the SP at NHK, but did a decent LP, which is why she finished where she did. I thought she pulled up pretty far, but it wasn't quite enough to medal. If that was the case, there was a good reason for the judges placements. It also seems odd to me that a clean Tonya, a month prior at Skate America, can defeat a relatively clean Oksana (in the SP), the world champ, but does not beat the more B-list skaters competing in that event. I'd love to see a video so we could get the real story, but again, it seems odd she'd be held up at one international event, and then the next suddenly be held down if, in fact, she skated cleanly. I always felt the judges wanted to give her consideration as long as she skated well, so I never really understood the logic of the politics from one event to the next if her team claimed the judges didn't like her.
  14. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    But we aren't sure if Tonya knew about it or if this was Jeff's idea. I doubt Jeff put that much thought into "Tonya respecting Kristi but not Nancy". I don't think Nancy was whacked because there were "only 2 spots" either. It would have been Nancy and Tonya on the team anyways, not Nancy and Michelle and Tonya stays home. So I think Jeff had Nancy whacked so that Tonya could medal at Olys since 92 was Nancy 3rd Tonya 4th. I don't think she knew, but that's another conversation...
  15. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    re: 1993 NHK Tonya Harding would been hard pressed to get into the medals after a 7th place finish in the technical program, it appears that she would have had to win the long program.

    Rank Name Nation TFP SP FS
    1 Surya Bonaly France 2.5 3 1
    2 Yuka Sato Japan 3.5 1 3
    3 Lu Chen China 4.0 4 2
    4 Tonya Harding United States 7.5 7 4
    5 Kumiko Koiwai Japan 8.0 5 5
    6 Liudmila Ivanova Ukraine 8.0 2 7
    7 Karen Preston Canada 8.5 5 6
    8 Rena Inoue Japan 14.0 12 8
    9 Bo Zhang China 14.5 11 9
    10 Tatiana Malinina Uzbekistan 15.0 10 10
    11 Laetitia Hubert France 15.5 9 11
    12 Kateřina Beránková Czech Republic 16.0 8 12

    Two tidbits:

    Kumiko Koiwai actually placed ahead of Rena Inoue in this competition, but only finished 3rd at Japanese Nationals and Inoue ended up getting the Olympic Spot after winning silver.

    Liudmilla Ivanova was a interesting story - made the Olympic team in 1994 as the 3rd place Ukrainian lady, however still competed back and forth as a Junior up until 1996.
  16. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

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    Klimova & Ponomarenko and Yamaguchi were at the top of there game in 1994 so I have no doubt that they would won in 1994. The interesting thing is what that would do to the podium. I think Yamaguchi winning gold, would have kept Baiul in skating longer and I don't know if Grishuk & Platov would have medal led at all. Torvill & Dean may have even placed above Usova & Zhulin which may have kept them in longer too.

    The chain reaction of this would have been cool to see as almost all my fave ice dancers would have stayed in longer. Lol
  17. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Baiul only had about one more good year after the Olympics before her body began to mature (fairly fast) and her jumping consistency would have really been affected. She was really lucky they changed the winter Olympics from 96 to 94, because she may well not even have medaled by 96 (even with Kristi & Kerrigan retired).

    With 3 of the 4 top dance teams all Russians, it would have been interesting to see how the politiking went. You may be right that G/P would have been left to wait their turn. I think you are wrong though in thinking either T/D or U/Z would have continued competing after 94 had Klimova/P stayed in and won 94 gold. Torvill & Dean clearly said they were reinstating for another Olympics, so win, place or off the podium, they were not continuing. I doubt Usova/Zhulin could have continued either. By that point their marriage was so fractured they were barely speaking to each other.
  18. Clay

    Clay Active Member

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    IIRC from the reports, she skated first in the short program, fell, and was given low marks. That put her in the first group for the free, where she had little chance of receiving high marks. She may have skated first in the free skate as well? There are a few youtube clips of her performing a spin at this event, so it was filmed, just not shown on NHK.

    She was practicing 3loop-3loop that year. Her coach wanted another lutz or flip, but Tonya said no way. You can see this somewhere on those Nancy/Tonya scandal videos on youtube, but I forget which one.

    Koiwai and Ivanova both had the potential to shake up the standings at any given event. Both disappeared around 1996.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    In the Tonya Harding book "Fire on Ice" it was said she skated a clean short at NHK that season, and Lu and Suyra both fell and came 3rd and 4th, and Tonya was quoted as saying "Erika and I both felt like we were gyped, the rest fell on their butts." Maybe the writer still made a mistake, and Tonya still said that since she was upset the others who were perceived as higher up in the World than her at that point placed well above her in the short despite that they also fell. Given that Sato and Chouinard both made bigger mistakes than her in the short in Lillehammer and beat her that is easy to believe happening. Since Ivanova placed 2nd in the short I have to imagine that nearly everyone missed something, so Tonya would have been upset to place 7th even if she made a mistake, let alone if she skated clean as some reported.

    As for Skate America short Baiul did a double lutz-double to combination which is an easier combination than Katarina Witt did at the Olympics so I dont think beating her in the short there was any big deal or groundswelling of support for Tonya, but what was amazing is that Bonaly the reigning World silver medalist was 3rd in the short behind Baiul's double lutz while doing a triple lutz-double toe.

    The ladies judging throughout the whole season was wierd and hard to follow, I was surprised Baiul lost to Bonaly at Europeans when Bonaly never a judges favorite missed her final triple lutz, and Baiul skated a cleaner performance than her Olympic one would be, then surprised with the Olympic decision after Baiul's skate, then a bit surprised with the Worlds decision (although I agreed with it) too.
  20. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I was also surprised when Bonaly won Europeans in 94, especially as Baiul was already World Champion by then. Maybe we were already seeing the power of French politiking.

    ISU judges never quite knew what to do with Bonaly. She was often landing more triple jumps than her competitors, but there were glaring weaknesses in other aspects of her skating (and even with her jumping technique). She had started skating at a fairly late age, and it showed in her underdeveloped basics. Her basic stroking was scratchy and seen as substandard even for a junior skater. Her edges were not strong and spirals were pretty weak. ( Those skating skills improved a lot by the time she turned pro.) Also, her choreo often had long stretches of nothing setting up some of her jumps so folks tended to devalue those. (I suspect the transition component in COP was created in part with her in mind.)

    While the European judges were willing to give her titles based on her jumps and overlook the weaknesses, the non-Euro judges rarely placed her first. They looked at her skating basics and just could not hold her up as the image of what skating should look like. At 94 Worlds, Bonaly outjumped queen of edges Sato by a good margin and still lost. She won 4 of the 7 European judges, but Canada & China went for Sato.

    For the curious -
    Bonaly won France, Belgium, Poland, Bulgaria
    Sato won Finland, Canada, Hungary, Germany, China
    (I took the ordinals off the TV broadcast of Sato's free skate found on Youtube.)
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I thought Bonaly definitely should have won the 93 Worlds or atleast beaten Baiul (I think Chen also has a case for winning those Worlds). That is why I was surprised when Bonaly made a mistake and didnt skate as well as the 1993 Worlds and beat Baiul who had improved artistically since 93 and jumped similarily to the 93 Worlds. I think you are right on why the European Championships judging seemed more favorable towards Bonaly than the World judging though, although many of those judges were still the same.

    I didnt think Bonaly was that great at the 94 Worlds though. I think even her jumping display there is overrated, she had to put her hand down and step out of the triple loop to keep from falling, and the triple toe of her triple flip-triple toe was so cheated it was barely more than a bad double with a three turn. Sato didnt have a triple-triple attempt or 2nd triple lutz but actually landed 1 more clean triple than Bonaly, and all her attempted jumps were clean. I never understood the belief of anyone Bonaly should have won those particular Worlds, nor her four 1st place votes.
  22. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    She had started skating really, really young. At 2.5 yo or something like that. But she never really had any coach.
    That's why her basics were not good. She always favored quantity over quality. She is a real athlete who loves sport, but I don't think she ever had a real skating coach when she was really young !
  23. query5

    query5 New Member

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    yamaguchi i don't think would have because she wouldn't been able to handle the pressure at that time.

    being reigning ogm champ they would have followed her.
    remember in 1992 -she wasn't suppose to win midori was, even though she was reigning world champ midori was suppose to win due to triple axel, kristi didn't do triple/triple-just a triple double,
    remember she didn't reinstate due to the pressures behind the scene. being reigning ogm would have been followed and expected to win (something she wasn't familar with)
    she might/might not have been able to handle it. we don't know since she didn't come back. as far world pro's she did lose to denise beilman and yuka sato- that i know of.
    kristi would have been ready for the competition skating wise, mentally probably but with the hoopla of the media one never knows.
    she is good skaters but the expectation of fans, public, media might have been a bit overwhelming. she couldn't handle low scores on dancing with stars, and complain. so i dont think she would have won-medal yes, not won.
  24. shsocu

    shsocu Active Member

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    I guess a triple lutz/triple toe doesn't count as a triple/triple combination? :confused:
  25. Skater91

    Skater91 New Member

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    Really Midori Ito should have stayed and won.
  26. Jessica

    Jessica Active Member

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    I'm not sure what Kristi you've been watching all these years. IMO she was always able to handle pressure. I guess you missed all the 3-3's she used to do. She won more pro competitions than Denise Beilman and Yuka sato put together and the one week on Dancing with the Stars that she scored lower than her normal high score, she took what the judges said and came back the next week and blew the competition away. There certainly wasn't any "she couldn't handle low scores." Please provide proof where she complained.
  27. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    If Midori couldn't handle the pressure from her home country to win in 92 then what make you think she wouldn't also have wilted under pressure in 94?
  28. duane

    duane New Member

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    I think Yamaguchi easily would have won 2nd Oly gold. I have no clue whatsoever about K&P, so I guess I can't really vote in the poll.
  29. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    I loved Yamaguchi's Madame Butterfly and Fantasie Impromptu programs and would have loved to see her skate them in eligible competition as well as the pro events she won using them.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Love Midori but IMO she was always done from amateur competition after 92. Too many years of pounding on the body and mind. There was never any talk of her going past 92. She was still a great skater in pro competitions (limited # of them), but an amateur comeback from her probably would have looked alot like the 96 Worlds.
  31. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. It's amazing how one can change in two years. Midori in 1994 may not have necessarily looked like Midori in 1996, especially if she were to take a lighter schedule and enjoy herself in 1993.
  32. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    From what I recall reading, and correct me if I'm wrong, unlike in 1988, Ito was a strong favorite for the OGM in Albertville. Going into the 1994 games, were there any strong favorites for the OGM?
    If Ito entered the competition in 1994 as simply one of the potential medalists, and not as a favorite, that might have taken pressure off her.
  33. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. Ito was a strong favorite to win in 1992, but it wasn't just the pressure of being the favorite, but the way the Japanese press chased her around really got to her.

    In 1994 it was different. Oksana and Nancy were co-favorites to win the OGM. Neither had Midori's ability to land jumps. IMO Midori would have been a favorite once again, but may be she would not have been chased by her press, as much as she was in 92 (after what happened). May be she would have learned to ignore it. It's all speculation, but I would have loved to see either Midori or Kristi come back in 94.
  34. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I guess that if Kristi or Midori had come back in 1994, they would have been stronger favorite for the Gold than Nancy and Oksana.
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    We will never know but personally I doubt a successful comeback for Midori in 1994. Maybe not as bad as 1996 but if a crystal ball were to be invented I would be shocked if it showed her winning in 94 had she returned, even in a field that is well below her peak levels of skating. Maybe a bronze at best. I think she always knew she wanted to be done by 92, she was even declining a bit already by that point, and it was a struggle for her to hang on for that one last shot at gold in 92 which unfortunately didnt go her way. Years of physical pounding on the body, injuries, and of course the emotional strain of years of press from the Japanese press had accumulated to the point I dont think she could have gone any further, hence why she didnt even go to a final Worlds after the Olympics (in fairness maybe it being in Kristi's home area and Kristi having all the momentum after the Olymipcs was another reason, as understandably she probably didnt want to face a likely defeat after her already dissapointing Olympic loss). Kristi is the truly baffling case, not really Midori, who returning in the first place would have been a shock, and was something that was never speculated or discussed at the time, and nor was her ever continuing past 92 ever remotedly considered by anyone in the years leading up to Albertville with everyone pretty much knowing that was Midori's amateur finale; and meanwhile pretty much everyone having expected Kristi to continue on until atleast 94, win or lose in Albertville, and even her initial retirement coming as a big surprise.

    Midori was great in some of the pro events, and skated at a higher level than the best amateurs in some of them, just as Kristi did in nearly all of hers, but as Barb Underhill said when commentating on Midori in 96, "it is a whole different feel than professional competition." The rivalry between Ito and Yamaguchi as pros, albeit brief for only a few years, was even better than their amateur won with both women skating their best more frequently than their amateur confronations. Their amateur rivalry was overrated in fact with Midori dominating an up and coming and immateur Yamaguchi, then Midori beset with horrible luck and mishaps in the big events once Kristi had come into her own.

    I think it was reported Midori never wanted to come back in 96 at all. The Japanese basically pressured her into returning. Such a shame as it ended her pro career as well which had been going well to that point.
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2012
  36. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Really ? OMG. I didn't know that.
    Anyway, I also doubt she would have won in 1994. Midori Ito seemed to have big troubles to bear that pressure after 1990. Too bad because she was so brilliant sometimes.

    Well, now she has a new career at masters competitions (Oberstdorf) lol.
  37. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I think Ito was sort of like Janet Lynn when it came to competition. As in, total headcases. They would always bomb the figures, and then just do their thing in the freestyle. Ito was a wreck as a competitor. You can't really blame it on the Japanese media. The minute she was the 'favorite' she started imploding.

    Had Ito stayed in for Lillehamer it would have been an entirely different competition. Nancy and Oksana rarely landed all their jumps, and if Ito was there with 3axel and 3toe/3toe it would have been a different competition. But I'm sure Ito would have messed it up anyway.
  38. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Aboslutely.
    About Ito, it's always disturbing to say : she would have killed the competition with her 3Axel and 3T/3T. Because she had it in 1992, and she didn't win.