Would Yamaguchi and Klimova & Ponomarenko have won 2nd Oly Gold if reinstated

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Oct 5, 2012.

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Would Yamaguchi and K/P have won 2nd Oly Gold if reinstated

  1. both would have

    41.3%
  2. Yamaguchi would have, K/P would not have

    31.7%
  3. K/P would have, Yamaguchi would not have

    14.4%
  4. both would not have

    11.5%
  5. Yamaguchi wouldnt have wno but would have flipped ordinals of Biaul vs Kerrigan

    1.0%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The two people I was most surprised did not reinstate in 94 were Kristi Yamaguchi and Klimova & Ponomarenko. Would either have won a 2nd Olympic Gold if they had. I would say both of them would have been successful.
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Just my thought : Kristi would have, not K&P.
    In ice dancing, it's so difficult to say, since it was not really objective at that time. And I'd say judges wanted someone new.
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Who knows but G&P's winning FD in 94 was so far inferior to K&P's from 92 I cant see K&P not winning unless they declined massively. U&Z with their horrible FD and slow and untrained performance, mostly due to their marital issues in 94 still nearly beat G&P.
  4. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    If K&P did reinstate and received 1st place ordinals, do you think that would have effected the ordinals and placement of the other ice dancers? Or would they still have ended up G&P, U&Z, T&D, in that order?
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Yamaguchi would have remained a favorite of the judges and with her good jumps would have been a winner. I think she would have been stronger than she was than she was in 1992.
  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what I was saying. We don't know. Usova&Zhulin almost won it with their FD...with T&D claiming they were robbed !
    But anyway, I don't think the judges would have give T&D no medal. :)
  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    IMO U&Z and T&D's placements would have been flipped, if K&P had the gold, and G&P the silver. I don't think the judges would have allowed a Russian sweep.
  8. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    I think Christi would have won but not sure about K/P.
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Now, one thing I wonder : would T&D be back if K&P were back also ?
    If if if, lol
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I love it if K/P won two OGM (much more worthy than G/P) but I doubt they would have won in 1994 since the judges seriously underrated them from 1986 to 1992. Funny how, a team that won 3 worlds and Olympic bronze, silver, and golds underrated and underscored but they were. I'm happy to see hindsight has been kind to their legacy.
  11. scootie12

    scootie12 New Member

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    I think both would have. Ice dancing is a bit trickier since the rules were a bit different than in 1992.

    Yamaguchi, hands down, would have repeated. Considering the technical content of the top 3 ladies, minus Chen Lu, who did the most aggressive program in terms of jumps, Yamaguchi would have easily won on both marks. Lu had the jumps, but not the same presentation at that time.

    Kristi also looked better in 1994 and had some fabulous programs to boot:
    World Pros 1994
    1994 World Team Challenge
    1994/95 M Butterfly Program (2 lutzes)
  12. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie New Member

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    Can't tell for Yamaguchi.
    K/P, given that they would have been still in the same good condition as they were in '92, would have won hands down. In '92, they won against much stronger programs than G/P had won against in '94.

    But keep in mind, K/P hold olympic medals of all three colours, one can say that they had already achieved everything possible. Why taking the risk again?
  13. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Yamaguchi talked about reinstating to skate pairs but obviously did not. I don't think K/P would have won for the same reason T/D didn't. Ice dance at that time was a very much take a number and wait your turn system in those days. Once they retired they gave up their number.
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    When I watched those programs at that time, my feeling was just : why did she retire ? Why ? She is amazing and could have won easily the 1994 Olympic title. And the SP in 1998 ! (And I'm a Michelle Kwan fan).
  15. Ares

    Ares Guest

    As long as she brought her knee pads to Nationals
  16. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    That's kind of what I thought, also. Didn't Kristi say something about feeling "safer" for not reinstating?
  17. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I hate to think Kristi would've been the victim of Giloogy's thugs. Kristi is smaller than Nancy. That knee whack might have seriously damage Kristi's knee.

    As to whether Kristi would've won in 94, I think Baiu would've remained the judges' darlings heading into LiliHammer.
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think the judges in 94 would have been more than fine giving T&D no medal. They were placing them a distant 3rd behind two not very good FDs.

    In the FD it was possible for an ordinal flip between G&P and U&Z for sure. Even an ordinal flip between G&P and T&D was possible. U&Z beat T&D clearly by the judges (much more clearly than G&P did T&D, ironically with G&P still beating U&Z) so that is the only ones that definitely wouldnt have flipped in the FD. The other dances could have been affected too as far as the placings. G&P probably would have been only 4th in the OD which would have made it incredibly hard for them to still end up the winners overall.

    That too. I actually dont think T&D would have returned had K&P done. Coming back to amateur competition after 10 years away is very hard, no matter who you are. I think they only returned since they saw an easy path to the gold. Usova & Zhulin were good but had been dominated by Klimova & Ponomarenko and the Duchensays for years, only winning a World title once everyone was good and there were no threats, and it was already apparent their skating was declining since 92 with the problems in their personal life. Gritschuk & Platov had never come close to winning a major title at that point, even though they came 2nd at the weak 93 Worlds event. Had someone like K&P been there or coming back, I dont think T&D would have even bothered, which in hindsight would have been a smart move anyway.

    Even though their FD this year sucked shouldnt U/Z won if that were the case? After all wasnt it their turn, not G/P's, they were the reigning World Champions and had waited their turn behind K/P for years. Yet the Russian fed. and their allies clearly backed G/P over U/Z which was why G/P won over U/Z in the end.

    Entirely possible this is true, but Nancy Kerrigan very nearly won despite that.
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2012
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kristi could often win the short program over MK IMO, but I dont think she would have in 98. That was Kwan's all time signature program and at its height. That is the only year I couldnt see her losing a SP to anyone if she skated cleanly, atleast not someone else only doing a triple toe. She definitely could have pushed Tara down to 3rd in the SP and if she did that Tara might never have won.
  20. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I picked K&P would have, and Kristi wouldn't, but I really mean that it's too hard to tell in a singles event because of jumping issues.

    In 1994 the focus of ice dance was on ballroom style routine... who could do that better than the in prime shape K&P? No one would come close. U&Z were clearly not favored anymore, and G&P in 94 could not compete against K&P at that level. I don't think there would have been a Russian sweep (if it was ever deserved it was in dance in 88 and pairs in 94 and it didn't happen), and I guess U&Z would have been the casualty.
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting nobody picked my last option.
  22. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Kristi definitely could have won a second gold with only a 2 year interval after Albertville. Considering the jumps she was landing on tour and in pro comps that season, it is very easy to believe she could have regained all her 92 skills, with even better presentation after a year of touring. I think Kristi was still a better skater than Kerrigan in every way and had such a significant jumping advantage over Baiul that all of Baiul's magic could not have overcome the technical deficit.

    As for dance, it remains the perpetual crap shoot. Klimova/P were so universally respected and admired that I think they could have won a few more years, unless and until some shift in the Russian heirarchy decided to move them on. Mentally though, I think they were really ready to be done with ISU competition after 3 Olympics and 9 years in the top echelon. I honestly don't know if they could have maintained a competitive focus for two more years with nothing left to prove. It probably would have come down to the drama and in-fighting of the 3 great Russian lady dance coaches to determine whose couple was placed over whose.

    Maybe that's because it doesn't address the dance results, which is half the survey. In any event, Kristi's presence would probably not have helped Kerrigan vs Baiul, IMO. If you look at the judges' ordinals, the ones who placed Kerrigan first in the FS would have been the same ones politically most likely to vote for Kristi (GBR, USA, Japan, Canada). She may also have won some of Baiul's judges (Poland, CZK, Ukraine, China, Germany) but I think her presence would have hurt Kerrigan more.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2012
  23. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    I feel pretty confident that both would have won. I actually think both would've grown even more artistically as well, and both of them technically had the goods, even on an off day.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am kind of amazed so many people think K/P wouldnt have won in 94, almost half. That is why I made the poll though, I was curious what people here would think. I could have seen the doubts if T/D had won or if U/Z had won with an outstanding performance befitting a reigning World Champion, but with a nowhere near career peak G/P winning with not great compulsories, a mediocre OD, and a sloppy over the top FD, pretty surprised at the votes.
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    This is just because you have a really bad idea of G&P level !
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Their level in 94 wasnt that high. They were a way better team in the 95-98 quad, even by the 95 Worlds despite being injured alot of the year they were so far improved, more polished, and mature, probably bolstered with the confidence of a big title. I am not getting into a whole discussion again of whether they deserved to win or not but regardless of that in 94 they werent that great. Their rhumba OD was a frenetic mess, way too busy and over the top for that sultry dance. Their FD was entertaining but sloppy, had many spots of poor unision, and way too much open skating far apart, and stoppages.

    The 94 Olympic event just wasnt that great with U&Z in subpar form and with a lame FD, and T&D trying to get their FD right all season and having weak CDs which reflected their time away from amateur competition. With 3 of the best dance teams in history you would expect a spectacular event but it definitely didnt pan out that way, it turned out to be an event alot like the 2010 mens event where you felt they should give out 3 bronze medals and leave it at that.

    That is also why I think K&P could have and probably would have cakewalked to a 2nd straight Olympic title, and much more easily than they won in 92 (without even having to match the level of their 92 performances). Heck I even think it would have been harder for Yamaguchi to win than K&P, Yamaguchi never faced Kerrigan with her 94 level of determination, conditioning, and consistency before, and Baiul was the judges darling at that point and for all the faults in her skating had something special or atleast felt like she did at the time. K&P would have had to overcome....pretty much nothing in hindsight from my perspective.
  27. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I prefer this explanation to the : "G&P were bad".
    G&P had the best Compulsories at the Olympics. And K&P were not that great at Compulsories.
    I agree about the OD, and they probably would have finished in 4th.
    I agree about their FD, but it was by far the most entertaining, and the most refreshing.
    K&P's 1992 FD was fantastic, but the rules had changed. I don't know what would have been their FD in 1994, lol.
  28. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    In my case, judgejudy, my answer is a lot like Susan M's. I do think that the Russian fed had moved on. I feel comfortable saying that K/P would've been better than what we saw demonstrated in the 1994 Olympics with their technical and artistic skills. I'm not sure that they would've been rewarded, though.

    I still think the drama would've been between Kerrigan and Harding. Presumably, if Yamaguchi reinstates (as opposed to competes for two more years) the USA still only has two spots (thanks to Kerrigan's meltdown in 1993) and it's between Kerrigan and Harding for the second spot at the Olympics.
  29. museksk8r

    museksk8r Well-Known Member

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    It seems artistry mattered way more back in 1994 in Olympic ladies than it probably ever has in recent Olympiads. IMO, as eligibles, Baiul was more artistic than Yamaguchi and Kerrigan. Kristi didn't really blossom artistically until after her Olympic eligible career. The judges turned a blind eye to Oksana's numerous 2-foot landings and lack of combination jumps and combination spins. Kerrigan clearly surpassed her technically, but that was ultimately ignored, so I don't quite believe it would have been such a walk in the park for Kristi to win a 2nd consecutive gold medal, particularly given that she doubled a Salchow and fell on a 3loop in Albertville. Plus, Yama would not have had the sympathy story of being an orphan losing her parents at such a young age, coming from a poor upbringing, and competing injured as Oksana did due to her practice collision with Tanja Szewczenko.
  30. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Yeah, if Kristi had turned in a clean performance in Lillehammer she probably would have won, but with a performance like she had in Albertville, I'm not so sure she wouldn't have been 3rd behind Kerrigan. Falls were a big deal back then, especially for an Olympic champion. She was still able to win in 92 because others fell and the whole event was a splatfest. The 94 event was not exactly a jump powerhouse, but Kerrigan and Baiul stood up on all their triples.

    Anyway, under this scenario, does Harding's husband have to whack Yamaguchi also, and does she recover quickly? :shuffle:
  31. Ares

    Ares Guest

    I don't really see Gillooly saying "Well Kristi is going to win anyway, let's leave her alone and go after our challenger for the silver medal."

    Kristi would have been the target, especially since she arguably would have been considered a bigger threat than Nancy in Lillehammer.
  32. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Kristi was not a ballerina, but she had great artistry and very good presentation, better than Kerrigan. Her 1992 Blue Danube was so good !
    Baiul's win was against Kerrigan. I don't have the feeling that judges wanted Baiul to win. They just wanted Kerrigan to not win, IMO. Remember that Baiul didn't even win Europeans (with a better performance than her Olympic LP !)
    Against the current Olympic champion, strong technically and in presentation, I don't think judges would have hesitated !
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  33. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Maybe both would've been threats?
  34. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    :yikes: Nooooooo !

    In fact, maybe no one would have had this stupid idea, because Tonya would have thinked "anyway, I will never win, so, nevermind".

    So, Tonya would have never been banned from figure skating.
    Plus, if Kristi wins the Gold in Lillehammer. Oksana Baiul would not have retired so soon, with alcohol and other problems we know.

    Kristi, why didn't you come back ?????? :p
    jamesy and (deleted member) like this.
  35. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    That's the first time I've heard anyone say something about K/P not being that good at compulsories. They always dominated that portion with the exception of 1991 Worlds where they made a mistake.

    Also, don't forget K/P were masters of the ballroom style until they had to adapt to the ice dance landscape of the early 90s and so they ended up with more interpretive types of dances. Their difficulty is pretty evident in those dances not to mention their superior lines, unison, dance holds, lifts (I always thought lifts were G/P's weak spot in terms of fitting with their choreography and how they were set up and finished) and musicality. Of course the judges seemed to try to find any excuse to hold them back, so maybe some of the judges felt the way you do briancoogaert.
  36. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    My opinion is that they were not as great as Bestemianova&Bukin in Compulsories. But they were the best of their quadrennial (1989-1992). But it's not that clear that they would have won compulsories in Lillehammer.
    That's what I wanted to say. ;)
  37. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well Usova & Zhulin won the first compulsory dance and lost the 2nd by only 1 judge. Klimova & Ponomarenko never had problem beating U&Z in compulsory dances, apart from the 91 Worlds where she stumbled. Also in general Usova & Zhulin were also skatnig far from peak form at the 94 Olympics.

    I hadnt thought about that Yamaguchi might be attacked had she come back. I am not sure exactly how Harding or her team's minds works, but maybe they would have decided to attack Yamaguchi in that case (yikes). Then again maybe Kristi would have recovered and skated her best at the Olympics just like Nancy did in that case, and if she did might well have won. It seems unlikely if Yamaguchi were back that Harding and her team would decide to attack Kerrigan though. It makes no sense to plan an attack on someone who probably wouldnt have even been the U.S one to beat, and with Kerrigan's poor showing at the 93 Worlds I am pretty sure Kristi coming back would have been immediatedly marketed as their #1 skater again. So it would probably either be Yamaguchi or nobody.
  38. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and I don't know how it works either. Just the fact that they imagine this against Kerrigan is a non sense. USA had 2 spots, so Tonya would have been in the Olympic team, and Nancy Kerrigan, as you said, was 5th in the World, and didn't skate that well at the beginning of the season (including 1993 Pre-Olympics Pirruetten Trophy that she won). lol
  39. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It seems the thinking was Harding thought she only had a chance at a medal at the Olympics if she went in as National Champion and U.S #1, and if she had the USFSA support and behind the scenes backing as their #1. She and her team apparently came to the last straw after coming only 4th at NHK behind Bonaly, Chen, and Sato, even though she skated well. It was even reported she did a clean short and came 7th, and Bonaly and Chen fell in their shorts and came 3rd and 4th. I find that hard to believe, but it was backed by more than one source, I would have loved to have seen that event.
  40. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Sorry I brought it up. Neither pleasant to think about nor particularly logical.