Would Evan have won 2010 Olympics even had everyone skated cleanly

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanlysacek, Apr 4, 2013.

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Would Evan have won 2010 Olympics even had everyone skated clean

  1. yes, especialy with a quad

    9.0%
  2. yes, but not without a quad

    5.7%
  3. no

    85.2%
  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Oh, come on VarBar, save your Chan defense for Sochi. :p

    Chan deserved to win 2009 Worlds and 2011 Worlds. His 5th place in Vancouver was generous to say the least. Strange we never hear Chan fans up-in-arms about Chan being denied 2009 Worlds, which he actually deserved to win! :rofl:

    Lambiel could have won it all in Vancouver had he actually been prepared to skate well. Unfortunately, he was not and he did not.

    As far as Weir's placement in Vancouver, your thoughts clearly are sympatico with those of US fed at the time who didn't care where the F Johnny placed*, and with those of ISU judges, and Johnny detractors everywhere!


    *Because their thoughts were solely on ensuring Lysacek would be in contention for gold
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2013
  2. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Patrick came in 5th at the Olympics.
     
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ Thanks for the correction kwanette.
     
  4. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    If you say so, it must be true, aftershocks. Because I've noticed you never judge skaters sentimentally but you always apply the rulebook to the skates.:respec:
     
  5. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I am growing increasingly bugged by the way so many folks on this list don't seem to know what is meant by "cleanly". Several of the folks mentioned did have clean skates in Vancouver. Clean just means they landed all their jumps on one foot and didn't fall or mess up another element. That's not the same thing as optimizing the point potential of the skate by executing all the planned quad and triple jumps. Plushenko and Weir did skate cleanly and did not win, so how can anyone argue either would have won had he skated cleanly?

    At least limit the conversation to talking about fully performing the program as choreographed. To begin the discussion talking about "if Evan had landed a quad..." is especially nonsense, since he did not have any quads planned in his programs. You can invent a jump list for lots of guys and say he could have won if only he had done all these.
     
  6. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    aftershocks, I think I can convince VarBar to cease defending Patrick Chan if you cease defending Johnny Wier. Whaddya say?
     
  7. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure the pressure was necessarily for Johnny Weir to medal per se, but to ensure that the total placements for the top 2 US men stayed 13 or less to ensure 3 spots for Los Angeles Worlds (as it turned out, Johnny needed to finish 3rd overall since Stephen Carriere finished 10th, resulting in the United States getting exactly 13).

    re: Jeff Buttle is an excellent example of someone who rarely got gifts from the international judges even when skating well. At 2008 Worlds, he was only 6th in components for his first place short program, and 2nd in components behind Brian Joubert for his winning freeskate (even though he skated last in the final group). Had Brian Joubert skated a cleaner SP and more COP friendly LP, he may have been very well given then nod over Jeff.
     
  8. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Joubert Barely did 2 combos in his free skate and had mostly level 2 spins. One of them just being a fusp level 2. he may have been going for a quad salchow but tripled it. So he only did one. He had the right jump layout of 3/5 but left out basically 3 jumps. A 2a-1t? He lost the tech mark by 10 points! He really needed to do a lot different! As it was the time after 10 world champions had done quads so maybe it wasn't clear that at that time the proper thing for him to have done is either stop doing quads to focus on spins and stuff or really go for that quad salchow as 2 quads or more was going to be necessary if you weren't doing all level 4 spins or 3 or 4 step sequences and did all triples well. Buttle figured that out before worlds! Like in 2007 worlds he got no points for his quad attempt and wasn't going to make that mistake again.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is arguing Weir could have won. :lol: It is pretty obvious had everyone skated cleanly he would have been placed out of the top 10. The only argument regarding him is if he got the scores he truly deserved (not that he was ever going to get them coming in as #3 American). As for Plushenko, to some a number of shaky jumps he barely held on to isnt really a clean skate.
     
  10. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    VarBar, I looked back at 2010 Olympics men's performances ... very interesting. Patrick did skate better than I recall. Yes, he's definitely a CoP savvy skater, even back then too. Patrick certainly was working the transitions, likely inspired by watching Matt Savoie's programs. :) I've got a lot of impressions, different and more expanded now since the event occurred 3 years ago and a lot has happened since then. In any case, Patrick had well-constructed programs, and he was slated 7th behind Johnny in the sp with a double-footed landing and minor bobbles (few people likely remember Patrick was in 7th in the sp). It was Oda who was placed 4th ahead of Lamby in 5th and Johnny in 6th in the sp. Lamby was generously scored with his mistakes. And, I'd kinda forgotten that Lamby was skating not fully recovered from a groin injury -- Ouch!

    I'm pretty sure Johnny was not happy with Oda being in front of him, since although Nobu is a good jumper, he has no musical interpretation or artistry to speak of. Nor was Johnny likely happy with Lamby in front with mistakes. Patrick was dinned a bit in the sp because so many top contenders (aside from Lamby) had clean sp performances (speaking of skating cleanly, :lol: -- based on the judges perceptions then and now, skating cleanly is relative to other factors, including politics and subjectivity). Patrick then pulled up in the lp despite the fall on the 3-axel and a couple of other slight stumbles. In any case, the standings shifted around after the lp, aside from Johnny remaining solidly in 6th and Kozuka solidly in 8th. Dai clearly wuzrobbed big time and that impression doesn't change with time. Dai should have been in first in sp. No way Dai should have been behind both Plush and Evan! Also, Kozuka wuzrobbed as the odd Japanese man out in the sp.

    Funnily enough, in my perception, judges' perceptions today would have had Patrick at least in second behind Plush. Seems to me as if Patrick with quads in the judges' minds has become the new unbeatable Plush post-Vancouver, only without Plush's notable consistency in his prime. Evan had a lot of things going for him with the judges, as did Oda in the sp. Figure skating is indeed a very strange sport.

    I don't think Johnny was necessarily stalking his jumps, just picking his leg up in an odd timing way on the 3flip and the 3loop as I recall, something he never used to do at least not that noticeably. I suspect, as I said that those odd quirks had something to do with Galina's meddling with Johnny's already wonderful technique. If you want to see stalking, watch Evan going into his 3-axel. ;) More impressions to come, meanwhile here’s the complete Vancouver men's sp video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqbQpiriYCU Skate order listed at the beginning

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjQBh3MAaFU Grp 4, men's lp Vancouver

    http://i.nbcolympics.com/figure-skating/resultsandschedules/event=FSM010000/phase=FSM010101/ Men's results breakdown ... fascinating ;)


    :lol: I only asked VarBar to save that defense, Proustable ... Patrick, or rather VarBar's view of Patrick might be in need of it more down the road. ;) In any case, I don't defend Johnny, contrary to what people think. He needs no defending by me. Mr. Weir can take care of himself. This is just a skating forum where we get our addictions on. Yeah, I admit it, and it’s hard to quit. It can be joyful and fun to share and to learn something new and interesting, and/ or it can be just a waste of energy to constantly b*tch with each other ... but for most of us it's a hard habit to break, because we are attached to our perceptions and to the emotional identifications we have with our views of skating and our preferences for certain skaters. It's human nature. We're all pretty much reacting most of the time to buttons being pushed.

    None of us really know skaters inside out, not even if we’ve met them, or even if it were possible that we actually happened to know them as intimately as we know our siblings. What it boils down to is we're voicing our individual perceptions of what we superficially see in performances and in skaters based on our own personal preferences, experiences and associations. It amounts in effect to identifying very strongly with figure skating and with certain skaters more than other skaters (which is generally not a good thing to do emotionally, yet it's fairly normal for skating fans). :)
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  11. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    This is a joke!!!

    Takahashi and Lysacek both have been scored too high in SP. Or one could say that Plushenko was scored too low in SP. With the fall and UR on his quad in LP, the maximum Takahashi could get was where he was given - the bronze.

    Either Plushenko or Lysacek should have won.

    There was no way for Weir to be on the podium with those 6.0 programs, especially the boring LP. They fitted exactly what Galina's purpose though - to hit pretty positions.:p Even though Weir's performances at 2010 Olympics have been hyped by his fans as well as himself, they were actually not the best performance from him. He could probably have been placed one spot up in front of Chan in the fifth place. That was about the highest placement he could get in a dreamworld, sorry.;)

    Lambiel was extraordinary in his PCS. He deserved every point he's gotten at the Olympics.

    Kozuka was over rated by his fans, as always. I'm glad that the judges didn't think so.:D
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2013
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but your opinion is the LAST thing I will ever give a flying fig about. :lol: If anything that you disagree so strongly will only reaffirm my assesment must be right.
     
  13. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

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    Watch that one there, kiddo. That 'loss' was tempered by 2 judges who placed Plushenko at #22 and @23 for his SP, in which he BEAT Lysacek!! And in the IJS, this is not even questioned, when he had amassed enough points in the eyes of the other judges to actually lead that segment! Anonymity may have beaten Plushenko that day. Add to that the fact that the COMPUTER drops a third (after the highest and lowest scores) RANDOM score in both segments, and that score in the LP was one of Plushenko's highest remianing. Don't know which 'random' score of Evans was dropped by the computer. So, perhaps it was the computer that beat Plushenko that day. I adore Evan. he is one of the sweetest men on the planet. But I wouldn't be quite so quick to bring up the sunbect of his win over Plushenko like it was a walk in the park, or just another day at the office. Thank God Evan skated clean (although with this new system, it is apparent that that is not at all necessary) going for a clean quad-less skate, rather than attempting the quad and failing. Hats off to Evan for keeping with the spirit of the sport, and taking a chance on skating HIS program.

    Lambiel stayed where he was because of his spins and footwork, transitions..all that stuff. The triple Axel has NEVER been his friend, and he fell out of his quad toe. If everyone would have skated clean, I'm not sure what the outcome would have been. I would then hope for a 2008-style Johnny Weir for the Gold...
     
  14. Eyre

    Eyre New Member

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    The problem was in 2010, there was no 2008-style Johnny Weir anymore. There were only the series of meaningless, recycled, re-recycled, and re-re-recycled "pretty positions".;)
     
  15. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    If I understood you correctly, it seems to me that the computer hackers did only half of their job since you know for sure which mark the software randomly dropped for Plushenko but you have no clue as to which one it dropped for Lysacek.:(
     
  16. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    I didn't want to write to this thread. But after you I'm writing: "European FS analysts said the decision to award Evan the gold medal over Evgeni was debatable." Because Evan wasn't flawless. Evan did mistakes-which are not visible to non-specialists. He had a prerotated 3A and he received only a judges warning for a wrong-edged takeoff on his triple flip, not a 2- or 3-point deduction.
    (Before anyone would want to kill me, these are official positions, I'm no expert. )
     
  17. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    The problem is even Doing a quad and landing could be stupid. If you landed an ur quad the base value would be 4 and if the ur was visible possible all -3 so your quad toe would then be worth 1 point. There was nothing dumber in skating from 2008 to 2010 then doing quads. It was absurd and dumb and why so many quad capable skaters never did it. Smart coaches abolished it from programs and training.

    People have absolutely disputed the idea that judges put plushenko 22 and 23 in the sp but when you get fives in pcs from judges and no goe on anything that's where you would be! There were two judges in the sp that absolutely did not think plushenko should be in the top 10 or 20!!! And thy were doing anything they could like 5 in pcs and minus goe on all elements.

    Weir at 2008 worlds tried and landed a quad attempt and for that barely got 2 points. So it was an act of actual cop savvy that he was quadless!