Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by olympic, Jul 11, 2012.
Not only do we have the Tanning Mom in NJ we also have the Feeder Mom
There was a show on TLC not too long ago about grossly overweight women. The voiceover talked about some women who make a living online by eating in front of a webcam and documenting how overweight they are getting. People have to pay to access these women's websites (which is how they make a living from it) and some of the subscribers also send the women $$$ to buy lots of food.
ETA: And I see Southpaw has found a story about one of these women.
Given she was a gymnast, I wonder if there's a history of disordered eating and screwed-up metabolism that started there. The way a lot of gymnasts eat and train does permanent damage to their systems...
Must be something in the water in Yank-land. In New York you have the transgender adult baby.
"I was afraid that I wouldn't be able to have a normal life doing this."
You don't say?
I have to admit, that when I see a grossly overweight person, I have a sick feeling. I also can not look at them very long - it is very disturbing to me. But then the same can be said for person who is extremely thin.
I can't imagine anyone thinking that the overweight person or the extremely thin person as attractive. That said, I would guesstimate that the majority of the population would find the extremely thin person more acceptable in society.
This. I have a fear that my children will need to care for me some day and I fear having no money to provide care if I become unable to care for myself. I would never, ever want my children to have to provide physical care like bathing, toileting, etc. for me
But I would think that she would have elevated BP, type 2 diabetes, thyroid problems, kidney problems, and other weight related issues all of which do indirectly affect weight issues.
Maybe she deliberately avoids treatment of those issues in order to keep her weight up?
Do you believe she couldn't stop herself from eating so much? And she couldn't move or exercise at all? And she also couldn't control what she put in her mouth?
I believe that at some point in her life she became hungry all the time, never felt full when she ate, and had a stronger reaction to food than a normal weighted person. Put all that together and it would be very hard to control what she was eating. Our appetite control systems are designed to keep us alive when food is scarce. They are very strong and very hard to fight when they get whacked out.
To put it in scientific terms:
The obese have more ghrelin than normal weighted people -- from 3 to 10x as much. Ghrelin makes you hungry. Try controlling your weight when you are 10x hungrier than you should be. It's basically impossible. We're programmed to eat when we're hungry so we don't die.
Then, the obese have less leptin, a hormone that make you feel satisfied and full. Also the part of the brain that registers satiety tends to have weaker activity than in someone who is a normal weight. Again, this makes it hard to control weight. How can you "stop eating when you feel full" if you never feel full?
Also, the obese have a stronger reaction to the sight of food than a normal weighted person. So it looks tastier and is more tempting.
All of these things are well-documented by science. We know that once you have 50 pound or more to lose, that diet and exercise is almost never effective. The only people who are able to lose that kind of the weight and keep it off for more than 2-5 years are statistical outliers.
We also know that, if you change the appetite control system by having weight loss surgery, all these things go away. Ghrelin levels return to normal. Brain scans when looking at food looks like those of a normal weighted person. Patients report feeling satisfied after eating when they never felt full before.
IMO, if you can fix a problem by surgery, then it can't be only a behavioral or personal responsibility issue. There has to be a large physiological component.
In fact, while we don't know for sure what causes these physiological differences, what evidence we do have does suggest that some people are just genetically programmed to react to weight loss by regaining more than what was lost. So all the pressure on little girls to look a certain way that causes many of them to go on a diet before they are even out of elementary school is going to push some of them into obesity eventually some day.
There are also a few studies that show that the obese are more likely to have been exposed to a certain virus than the non-obese.
So we have all this scientific data that shows that there is a large genetic component to obesity, that there are many physiological causes, and that it's not simply a matter of making bad choices. Which is not to say that obese people don't also make bad choices or that there can't be someone out there who is obese who has normal ghrelin and leptin levels. But, if you look at the success rate of WLS and the failure rate of diet & exercise, you can see that they are a very small minority of the obese population. For most people, it's all physiological. You fix the body and the weight follows.
Having high blood pressure doesn't cause weight gain. And you can treat Type II diabetes with drugs and never lose a pound.
Not to mention, we don't know what kind of health problems she has. While weight is correlated with a lot of health problems, not everyone who is obese has health problems and there are people who aren't obese who have these health problems as well.
i feel sorry for her son and also the taxpayers who are forced to foot the bill for this foolishness
Isn't this a bit like Prater Will syndrome. As I understand it, people with Prater Willie have no mechanism for appetite control all, it's completely broken.
Wasn't she deliberately getting fat, though? Eating online?
Prader Willi Syndrome presents in childhood (infancy)
I've taken care of children with Prader-Willi syndrome. From this woman's description, I would guess she does not have this genetic disorder.
It partly is. She would have to be blind (and completely unaware of the physical difficulties) to not realize she was getting huge. She didn't have to go as far as to eat only salad after that point, but maybe just realized that eating 10,000 calories a day was maybe a bit much.
That's why it's so important to have some kind of support system. Someone there to say to you, "Um, you've gotten kind of crazy-nusto-heavy, and I'm worried about your health." Instead it seems like she mostly had enablers, if anyone.
When I was recovering from the stomach flu, it was very very obvious to me that I had gotten unheathily-thin, and I knew I had to make some changes to put some weight on. I guess eating more even when you're not hungry is "easier" than eating less, but it still takes effort to get to the gym to lift weights.
I'm not saying that just because I could do it, everyone can do it. (In fact I'm still pretty skinny, but have gotten to a more normal weight.) But people have to take some responsibility for their health, especially when it's so extremely unhealthy.
Just curious, would you tell that to an HIV infected person? Because the same argument was used in the 80s against treating HIV infected people -- that they did it to themselves with their immoral lifestyles.
I don't see much difference in the judgement in this thread and the kind of judgement that condemns an HIV infected person.
What is the option? Yes, it is her responsibility to seek care, but are you saying care shouldn't be offered?
Not the same as what I was arguing. Contracting HIV is something that isn't progressive. You don't suddenly find yourself 50+ lbs under/over what you weighed yesterday unless you have a life-threatening condition.
I'm saying that if you SEE yourself going downhill in a progressive manner, it should be your responsibility to get help. Cause as everyone here knows, you can't be helped unless you're willing to receive it. Even getting to the doctor is a first step, and better than nothing.
When I see people who are obese at the gym, I want to go good on you! Cause so many others don't even get that far, and getting to be so extremely obese without any intervention (ie, reaching out for help) is partly a responsibility thing. I don't anyone here would disagree.
I think one of the reasons severely overweight people don't seek out help more is because of the intense social stigmas levied at them. When people openly stare and mock a person when walking down the street, that person will start avoiding going out at all. That, of course, feeds into a more sedentary lifestyle which exacerbates the problem. Depression can set in which further isolates a person. That results in even less activity. After awhile, the only positive stimulation comes from eating. It's a vicious cycle.
One disturbing thing I read awhile back was a study that examined people's attitudes towards formerly overweight people. It's long been known that weight significantly factors into how a person is viewed morally, and that overweight people are much less likely to be hired. But what this study showed was when people learned a normal weight person was formerly fat, that person was now viewed as less attractive and having moral shortcomings because of their former weight. So the stigma becomes lifelong.
Really? People make no f*cking sense sometimes.
It makes sense if you think being very overweight is a sign of laziness, thoughtlessness, stupidity, and gross inconsideration. If such people are viewed as "ewwww" and "disgusting" and "grotesque", then you have to think anyone who would allow themselves to get to such a state has some inherent shortcomings. If only they had just taken responsibility for themselves when they were visibly getting overweight, it wouldn't be an issue. If you view it as a matter of personal responsibility, then it follows someone was highly irresponsible for becoming overweight, and that's a character flaw. The more overweight a person was, the more irresponsible they obviously were.
I think it's a logical conclusion if that is how you view overweight people in the first place
Big bottom, big bottom
Talk about mud flaps, my girl's got 'em
Big bottom drive me out of my mind
How could I leave this behind?
That has a different cause, but shares some characteristics. But Prater Will is much worse and has many more symptoms than just poor appetite control.
And what help do you suggest they get?
It's been well documented that diet & exercise makes people genetically programmed to be obese even FATTER in the long run. It's also well documented that exercise alone rarely leads to sustained weight loss. (Exercise is really about health and not weight when it comes down to it.)
Here's the thing: I know many, many obese people. Every single one of them has tried multiple things to deal with their weight, often under a doctor's supervision, and for 99% of them, it didn't help. In most cases, it made things worse.
I'd be extremely surprised if this woman hadn't tried all kinds of things to lose weight in the past. But after a while, when none of them worked and she was still getting heavier, she gave up.
Just as Angeleskates is arguing. But unfortunately it's not that simple.
Sometimes, it really is. I know many, many obese people, or I should say fomerly obese people, who have managed to loose their excess weight using the age old "eat less and better, exercise more". It wasn't overnight, it most cases it took years - and a complete life change, but they did it. I believe the majority of people want a magic wand, but the fact is, it is harder to loose weight than gain weight for most people, and it takes a lot of effort - forever - to maintain a healthy weight for some people. You make it sound like no one who is obese can help it, and that's just not true - not even close.
I have an eating disorder (recovering) and don't feel hunger, I time when I eat and watch what I eat for that reason. I don't feel full - if I feel "full" I actually feel (and usually am) physcially sick. I have just been travelling and it really threw me off. I would be very easy for me to gain weight by eating too much, and very easy for me to loose weight because I forget to eat. For some, it takes more effort; I still enjoy eating. I am within a healthy BMI and relatively fit; I am not "healthy" and am under constant doctor supervision, but I am mostly happy and that's more important. I do what I can for my health.
I also know many overweight people, who have become more healthy and remain overweight on the scales, but medically are fine and healthy. I know several underweight people who have tried unsuccessfully to put weight on and are medically fine and healthy - the social stigma for them is also a problem.
I don't believe this woman acknowledged she had a problem early enough, but I also think it's obvious that she was in control of what - and how much - she was eating - and still is. Otherwise, she wouldn't be trying to change and loose weight now. That said, I also think she has psychological issues that also need to be dealt with - no one gets that big without having an underlying issue that hasn't been dealt with, and IMO no one seeks attention like she now has, without also having other issues.
I'm not sure. I've never been overweight and I've never had to lose weight, but I imagine it must be very hard for someone to change their lifestyle. It's hard enough for me to put on 10 lbs, I imagine it must be similarly difficult for someone with the opposite issue.
So if someone WAS overweight or obese and is at a healthy weight now, my first impression is that they must have worked 10000x harder than I ever have to achieve that.
I don't think every obese person is genetically programmed to be that way. I mean the way that you're describing - that no diet or exercise in existence can help. Are obese people having more children than normal weight or thin people? Evolution doesn't work that quickly, at any rate. Even though I joke that I inherited some bona fide skinny genes. It's only partly true, since I admittedly don't eat that much and neither does my family. I'd have to eat a lot more to truly test my genetic propensity for thinness....
I believe that for most, it's a combination of genetics and external influences. What you eat as well as how much you move. And admittedly, many doctors are not well-versed in nutrition, nor is human metabolism that well understood.
And I don't judge any obese or overweight people when I see them. Heaven knows what they've tried or haven't tried. I mostly go at those who choose to publicize how heavy they are and how many calories they take in. If you're taking in 10,000 calories a day, you really aren't trying very hard to be healthy.
Japanfan, I'm asking this genuinely, so I hope that comes across - how long does Mr. Japanfan "cut back on food" before deciding that the weight loss isn't following?
IME, this is where most people have problems, after a week or a month of "starving", they still have lost much - or any, or as much as they wanted - so they figure it isn't worth it, but really, it takes a particular lifestyle, IMO and E with regular check-ups, to maintain a healthy weight, fitness level and general wellbeing.
ETA: Oops, I'm sorry, I can see you deleted your post right after I posted, I hope not because of my post. Please let me know if you want me to edit out my question.
What about that skinny guy Alex?
Shouldn't he lose weight too?
I am always struggling with losing weight. I do well, but then I don't. I don't think it has anything to do with eating though. It's mental. I start to look really good and get a positive comment from the wrong person and the next thing I know, I want food, I want to stay in my desk and not leave the office. It's like having a cough and pneumonia. The cough isn't the illness.
Yes it is.
Most of the people who are successful at it do one of the following:
-become totally obsessed with staying thin to the point where they are actually neurotic and spend many hours a day working on it including logging all their food forever and weighing themselves every day and exercising excessively, at least an hour a day, 5-7 days a week
-become a fitness professional so that they are exercising for hours every day leading classes and the like or become interested in endurance sports so they are working out at least 10 hours a week but often as much as 20-25
-they lose the weight incredibly slowly --- over a matter of years, sometimes as much as 5 years -- so that they don't trigger the famine response, which is when ghrelin levels rise in order to force you to gain back your weight.
The rest may lose the weight but by 2-5 years later, it's back. With friends.
As an aside, the famine response tends to kick in when you lose more than 10% of your body weight, which means you have to lose only 20-30 pounds at a time and wait a long time in between before the next weight loss period begins so your body starts to think of your new weight as your set point. Most people can't lose weight that slowly or stop when they get to 25 pounds lost.
Just because someone has a genetic tendency doesn't mean they are guaranteed to get a certain disease. Something in our environment has to trigger it.
And our environment has changed quite a bit in a short period of time. This triggers kids to get chubbier faster and younger which triggers them to be put on a diet which then starts them on the yo-yo cycle of dieting. If you have this genetic tendency to react to a diet by your body trying to force you to gain back all your weight plus 10 pounds, but you never go on a diet, at least not a serious one, then you'll never know you have this tendency.
And when you say you probably aren't genetically programmed to be skinny because you don't eat much, you are misunderstanding how appetite control works. WHY don't you eat much? Just because? No. It's because your body has a set point it wants to be at and that set point is much lower than what society considers normal. Because your set point is that low, your body conspires to get you not to eat. It doesn't make you hungry enough to be a higher weight and so you have to fight it to gain that weight. Just like an obese person has to fight their body to be a lower weight.
Though I have to say, just as I don't think this woman is burning 500 calories an hour having sex, I would be surprised if she's taking 10,000 calories a day. Usually, for sedentary people, you times the weight by 10 and that's how many calories a day they are eating. So she's probably eating about 7,000, if she's not gaining or even losing.
I think 10,000 just sounds more impressive and she's clearly become invested in portraying herself as this massive eater -- it probably gives her more donations and attention from the feeders to exaggerate what she's eating.
So...are you saying that the only solution is to never get overweight in the first place? That just says to me that we have to make sure school lunches are healthy and that we keep sodas out of our schools, etc etc. Concentrate on the younger generation, especially if they will be screwed for the rest of their lives if they are fat as kids.
I find it's also what you're immediately used to. When I'm busy, I forget to eat, or I don't eat that much. Then for the next few days I eat like a bird if I don't think about it. I literally have to remind myself to eat a full meal before my appetite kicks in again and I get hungry faster.
Though my appetite control definitely has a different general threshold than someone who's struggling to lose weight. If it only took a couple of days of light eating to always eat light, I really don't think losing weight would be such a challenge.
Also, keep in mind that I'm ridiculously thin. My energy is good and what I eat doesn't concern me at all, and I'm still underweight. (Barely, thanks to a lot of weight training.) I don't think I'm normal at all, and I don't expect other people to take up my habits or even be able to get to my weight.
But there's still a huge difference between someone like me and someone who eats 7,000+ calories a day and wonders why they aren't healthy.
7,000 still sounds like a ton to me....but you're right, it's better than 10,000.