Womens Olympic Gold Class vs Non Gold Class

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Mar 21, 2011.

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Womens Olympic Gold class vs Non Olympic Gold class- which is stronger

  1. Olympic Gold group

    31.7%
  2. non Olympic Gold group

    68.3%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is interesting to wonder but if you put the Womens Olympic Gold class vs the best of the Non Gold class which is the stronger overall group.


    Olympic Gold Team:

    Madge Syder
    Madga Julin
    Herma Szabo
    Sonja Henjie
    Barbara Ann Scott
    Jeanette Altwegg
    Tenley Albright
    Carol Heiss
    Sjouke Dijkstra
    Peggy Fleming
    Trixi Schuba
    Dorothy Hamil
    Annett Poetzsch
    Katarina Witt
    Kristi Yamaguchi
    Oksana Baiul
    Tara Lipinski
    Sarah Hughes
    Shizuka Arakawa
    Yu Na Kim

    So that is 20 women. So lets say put them up against the best 20 skaters to never win the Olympic Gold medal. Mine would be something like this group:

    Midori Ito
    Mao Asada
    Michelle Kwan
    Irina Slutskaya
    Cecilia Colledge
    Karen Magnussen
    Janet Lynn
    Linda Fratianne
    Denise Biellmann
    Rosalynn Sumners
    Debi Thomas
    Elaine Zayak
    Gaby Seyfert
    Lu Chen
    Yuka Sato
    Maribel Vinson Owen
    Christine Errrath
    Sasha Cohen
    Nancy Kerrigan
    Aja Zanova

    Which is the stronger overall group.
  2. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    As determined by what rules? Are triples required? School figures?

    Certainly, I think Michelle Kwan can jump rings around Henie ... but I don't know how good MK is at figures.
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How about just overall which group in totality has made more impact on skating. There are alot of people from the figures era and non figures era on both lists so one could compare:

    Henjie vs Colledge
    Fleming and Hamill vs Lynn and Fratianne
    Poetzsch vs Errath
    Kwan and Asada and Ito vs Yamaguchi and Kim and Lipinski

    I find it intriguing since I am pretty sure this is the only one of the 4 disciplines you could seriously ask such a question.
  4. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I haven't really watched a lot of the older skaters skate, but I will go by olympics:

    2010: Kim Yu-Na definitely outclassed everyone else in the Olympics.
    2006: I'd have to go with the non-gold class here. I loved Sasha Cohen and Irina Slutskaya so much.
    2002: Same with 2006 but tack on Michelle Kwan
    1998: Difficult to decide. Still the non gold. (Kwan, Chen, and Bonaly's back flip to one foot beat Lipinski)
    1994: I loved Oksana's short program. A little iffy about the LP, but I'd go with her over the rest
    1992: Hard to say whether I preferred Yamaguchi or Ito (If she had done the triple axel triple toe along with the solo triple axel, it would have probably went to her)
    Before that, I didn't really watch anything.
  5. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Who is Aja Zanova?
  6. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Ito was fourth after the short, so she still would have needed another skater to beat Kristi in the freeskate to get the gold (and she sure didn't get any help from the likes of Nancy, Tonya or Leticia Hubert!)
  7. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    Alena Vrzáňová, who won the 1949 and 1950 World titles.
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I cant vote as I am pretty split.
  9. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    Well, I'd definitely include Tonya Harding in there before I would Nancy Kerrigan. ;)
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I forgot Harding. I also think Harding is a better skater than Kerrigan (although her contemporary Kerrigan obviously had the better career so is maybe the greater skater, but not really the better one). Still I definitely would take Vrzanova, Owen, or Errath off my top 20 list to make room for Harding in that case.

    I also sort of wanted to include Kadavy even though I know her career doesnt justify it. She was a wonderful skater except for her lack of competitive nerve.
  11. neptune

    neptune New Member

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    No problem. Nancy really only had the better career from '92 onward (overall), but even then, it's not like she was head and shoulders above Tonya most of the time (such as at '93 Nationals).

    True.
  12. PUNKPRINCESS

    PUNKPRINCESS New Member

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    As a group, non-gold class wins by a mile for me.

    Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Janet Lynn, Yuka Sato, Midori Ito, Mao Asada, Lu Chen...
  13. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    I mean my vote for favorite, not the gold
  14. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    Oh! :eek: :duh:
  15. JamieSix

    JamieSix New Member

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    Some of those kids just got lucky. *cough* Sarah *cough*

    I'll take the non-gold class any day!
  16. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    I think winning the OGM is as much luck as anything. It is only once every 4 years so if you are injured, have family problems or are not at your peak you may never get one. Also the rules change. Some people would have won if figures hadn't counted so much at one time (Biellmann). Other people might not have won if jumping hadn't counted so much when they were competing.

    Michelle and Irina certainly deserve kudos for longevity as competitors. I would also give Kristi credit for maintaining her technical abilities throughout her professional career. As far as artistry, that's totally subjective so each person will have their own opinion.
  17. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Well, the Olympics haven't been kind to my favorite skaters. So non-OGM class for me! :)
  18. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

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    How I wish Sasha had hit that Triple Lutz Triple Toe
    (Or any of the others in the top four hitting)
  19. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

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    IMO OG is just another extra overhyped decorated medal. I mean the skaters still compete with the same rules, same competitors. It just the spotlight and the once in every 4 years window make it a little stressful and added a bit more pressure maybe.
  20. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, they're all good. I don't view the OGM as a lifetime achievement award either. It's just one competition and it takes more than one competition to become a legend.
  21. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Impossible to say. I love some olympic gold skaters and some non olympic gold skaters. Can't say which group is my favorite.
  22. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Among both groups of skaters, the only one I would still want to watch skating today is Dorothy Hamill :)
  23. ambern024

    ambern024 New Member

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    Non OG winning for sure! It's really hands down imo.
  24. SwingDancer

    SwingDancer New Member

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    ITA Gold Medals do not make a champion, heart and passion for the sport does!!
  25. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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    That must be the value of OGM. ;)

    And hard to vote..... My favorites are here and there.
  26. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

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    And you ought to include Laurence Owen, Maribel's daughter, in the non-gold-winning group. US title, North American title, unfortunately hard to gauge otherwise but before the crash the buzz was certainly there.
  27. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    It's hard to vote since the non-Olympic gold class could be a bit different for every person..
  28. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Then I guess the question is "Can you come up with a list of 20 female skaters over the past century who have not won Olympic gold and who, as a group, you consider superior to the 20 who have won it"?

    It doesn't matter who your 20 non-OG-winning skaters are or whether they're the same as someone else's. The vote would be primarily "Can this group of 20 be surpassed by a non-overlapping group of 20" or "No it cannot."

    But ultimately, whether FSU poll voters think that group can or cannot be surpassed, what does that prove anyway?

    If the exercise makes for interesting discussion, go for it.
  29. chmea

    chmea New Member

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    The poll should be Olympic gold class vs Non gold class vs Michelle Kwan ;)

    I vote for the Kween !!! :encore::saint:
  30. SkatingAnalyst

    SkatingAnalyst New Member

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    This is TOO EASY.

    Yuna won against Mao.
    Tara won against Michelle.
    Kristi won against Midori.

    So...GOLD MEDALISTS were PROVED better than OTHERS by JUDGES.
    What do we want?
    REMATCHES???

    Strange enough...
    All MY FAVORITES WON GOLD except SASHA and MAO.
  31. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ITA!

    I think that anyone declaring this a "hands down" obvious win for the non-gold are only speaking of recent years where we had a lot of unpopular winners and were all familiar with everyone who skated due to tv and our ages.

    Based on my own "in time" viewing:
    1968: definitely gold!
    1972: definitely non-gold!
    1976: gold
    1980: non-gold
    1984: non-gold
    1988: non-gold, but close
    1992: gold, but close
    1994: non-gold, but close
    1998: non-gold
    2002: non gold
    2006: gold
    2010: gold

    so that's 5 golds to 7 non-golds

    Based on youtube, etc...
    1932: gold
    1936: gold
    1948: gold
    1952: non-gold
    1956: gold
    1960: gold
    1964: non-gold

    so that's an additional 5 gold and 2 non-gold

    for a grand total of 10 golds and 9 non-golds.

    who could possibly pick!?!?!?

    ETA: this whole poll could be edited down to one basic question IMHO: how could one possibly chose between Fleming and Lynn. Everyone knows that the best sunday has both chocolate and vanilla in it! lol
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2011
  32. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    Without going into a big analaysis I'd say you can't lump everything together.

    At most I'd lump the figures era skaters with the post figures skaters.

    My guess is that the figures era the oly-gold club has the edge on the non-oly gold skaters but that in the post figures era the non-oly gold has the edge over the oly-gold club.

    The only bridge skater is Midori Ito (only lady to medal in worlds/olys with and withuot figures) so I'd count her in both camps.
  33. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    who cares :) Love the gold medalist but also wanted to say that this:

    Midori Ito
    Mao Asada
    Michelle Kwan
    Irina Slutskaya
    Cecilia Colledge
    Karen Magnussen
    Janet Lynn
    Linda Fratianne
    Denise Biellmann
    Rosalynn Sumners
    Debi Thomas
    Elaine Zayak
    Gaby Seyfert
    Lu Chen
    Yuka Sato
    Maribel Vinson Owen
    Christine Errrath
    Sasha Cohen
    Nancy Kerrigan
    Aja Zanova


    Is an amazing group of women!
  34. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Active Member

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  35. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    For a skating analyst, your analysis is pretty narrow and doesn't take into consideration other data that shows that Mao has won against Yuna, Michelle has won against Tara, and Midori has won against Kristi as well. :p
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2011
  36. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    That's so true. It's more complicated than winning the biggest price.
    Michelle could have been 2-times Olympic champion considering her performances before and after each Olympics.
    Same with Mao Asada, Irina Slutskaya, Midori Ito ...
  37. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    Except, Olympics is just one competition, where a luck and form of a day decides everything. Take 2002. In no way there's a chance that Sarah Hughes was a better skater than Michelle and Irina, two living legends. And just because Yu-Na was better than Mao last season doesn't mean she has always been and always will be. After all, Mao is a two time World champion and both times she won her titles over Yu-Na.
  38. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    Of course it doesn't. When Mao beat Yu-Na, Mao was better than Yu-Na and if Mao or someone else defeats Yu-Na in future, it will mean Yu-Na has been less good than the winner. It simply stands to reason.
  39. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    To date Yu Na has undoubtably been a better senior skater to Mao. She has higher PB scores in both programs, in fact multiples times over, she won the vast majority of their head to heads over the last 4 years, she has never missed a major podium which Mao has (09 Worlds), has been much more dominant on the overall grand prix and at the Grand Prix final, and of course has the Olympic Gold which Mao lacks on top of all that. Of course in the future it has potential to change.
  40. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    I don't argue that Yuna has been better competitively as a senior but I wouldn't call 6:4 ratio "a vast majority." It's certainly better than the one between Michelle and Sasha.