Will the newbies have the poise as well as the triples to take on the veterans?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Aug 13, 2011.

Will the newbies have the poise as well as the triples to take on the veterans?

Poll closed Sep 13, 2011.
  1. Yes

    34 vote(s)
    61.8%
  2. No

    8 vote(s)
    14.5%
  3. Too early to tell

    13 vote(s)
    23.6%
  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    Interesting article from Alexa Ainsworth in Universal Sports:-

    http://www.universalsports.com/news-blogs/blogs/blog=gofigure/postid=548283.html

    According to Ainsworth, the problem with the forthcoming season in the ladies is that "the newbies with the triple-triple combinations lack the maturity of the veterans - who lack the triple-triple. We are having a difficult time thinking of a skater who has the poise and presence of a senior lady and can throw down an effortless triple Lutz-triple toe." However, I don't think that this is necessarily the case. This view is based on last year's junior performances and Sotnikova's and Tuktamysheva's performances certainly did not lack 'poise'. Moreover, both Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva will be a year older and that extra year will bring additional poise and maturity to their skating. I think therefore that the suggestion that there programs during the coming season will lack poise and maturity is a bit premature.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2011
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  2. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

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    The Russian (girls) Ladies have it all - It will be a fun season to watch!
     
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  3. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

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    I expect Tuk and Sot to be inconsistent during the GPs, meaning that they will be excellent in some performances, and disappointing in others. However, I expect both of them to make the finals and at least one of them to pull it together to win the gold.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The womens field is terrible now. The World title was won by an early 80s caliber gold medal performance, the Olympic Champion skated at 45% of her Olympic and previous years caliber and still very nearly won the World title, and skaters were fighting for the bronze with performances that would barely have them fighting for top 10 most years. Of course the new ones will do very well against this sad crop, especialy with Kim and Ando not even doing the Grand Prix (and who knows when if ever returning), whether they are kitchen soup or not.
     
  5. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I think you're exaggerating. Ando's performance was far from "early 80's caliber". Those spins, two triple lutzes etc. And performances of skaters' who were fighting for the bronze certainly wouldn't "barely" have them fighting for top 10 most years. Kostner's and Czisny's skates would make top 10 in most Worlds in history.
     
  6. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    You're insane. Leonova's performanes would have had her in the top 5 every year I can think of. She would have won in '06. Alissa would have also been comfortably in the Top 10 in previous years, and Murakami.
     
  7. gingercat

    gingercat Active Member

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    I remember Sot at Sheffield JGP, I have not seen skating like that in YEARS!!! Don't count the 2 young ones out at all. It will be a pleaseure to watch them.
     
  8. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    mao's performance was also very good despite her mistakes i found her programs at worlds to be one off the most enjoyable,and if she shows up in good condition soon, which i assume she will, i don't see anything or anyone stopping her from winning. since the only thing that has held Mao back the previous season is all the challenges she had taken at the same time..
     
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  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Leonova from Worlds would have beaten Meissner with a flawless skate with 2 triple-triples, 7 triples, and high PCS at the 2006 Worlds. Thanks for the laughs on that one. :lol:
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Those spins you say. :rofl: You are right, it is disrespectful to the early 80s ladies and Ando in the same sentence if we are talking about spins. Imagine comparing Ando and her slow croakey spins and novice layback to the spins of Biellmann, Zayak, and Kay Thomson. :scream:
     
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    JudgeJudy, Mao is far from finished. One bad season does not 'finish' a skater. Many successful skaters have had a bad season that they bounced back from. Irina Slutskaya bounced back twice. Michelle bounced back from a poor (by her standards) 1997 season. There are other examples.
     
  12. falling_dance

    falling_dance D. Murakami's Newest Fan

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    I can't see Leonova beating Meissner either, though it's worth noting that Leonova's SP + a passable spiral sequence would've been the only clean short with three triples in the competition (3T3T and 3Z; the easiest 3-3, but still something). Gedevanishvili and Korpi were the others to go for three triples in the short, neither cleanly (and the latter fell). Assuming a near tie in qualifiying, good momentum from the short, and the same FS with ca. 2006 COP scoring and one more spin, it might've been close between Meissner and Leonova. Finally, Meissner might have scored a point or two less than that which she gained by giving the only "champion's performance" of the night. She went from having no PCS averages in the mid-sevens in the SP to having all but one of them at that level in the FS.

    Well, that was "fun". :p
     
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  13. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    In 2006 no, but how many Meissner's triples would've been ratified in 2011?..
     
  14. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    Flawless? I love Kimmie dearly, but I know that only 5 of those 7 triples would have counted now-a-days. Alena did 6 clean ones. Don't get me started on spins and steps! Leonova also didn't benefit from having a spiral sequence (more points) in either program. Leonova's SP in 2011 was also superior to Kimmie's in 2006. And as brought up by another poster, Kimmie was the beneficiary of very high PCS because of a stunning skate on a night of pretty mediocre performances. She never received such high PCS again, nor did she deserve it.

    I have to admit I laugh time and time again when I see yet another trash can thread started by you. So, I guess I can say "Thanks for the laughs," too! :lol: :40beers: :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2011
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    A little harsh, but I do get what you are saying. No one really skated like they WANTED to win the World title, that's what I found the most frustrating. All week I saw footage of Miki practicing sick 3lz-3lo, 3s-3lo combos and reeling off 2a-3t like it was nothing, but she didn't go for any of those combos in the actual event and was still able to win. Ditto for Kostner and the Witt-content program that earned her bronze.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Whatever, if you really think Leonova would have beaten Meissner at the 2006 Worlds you are smoking some pretty good crack. I dont even know why you are bother talking about scoring changes since nobody is going to compare scores from 2006 to 2011 anyway. If you want to bring scoring into it though, scoring in general is far elevated as time goes on across all disciplines, so the fact Meissner scored so much higher at the 2006 Worlds vs Leonova at the Moscow Worlds, when comparable performances per discipline are usual about 20 points higher than back then, already says enough.

    Your point on PCS is also completely false. Meissner received very high PCS internationally the next 2 seasons until after her meltdown at the 08 Nationals which forever dropped her rep. Only Kim and Asada regularly received higher PCS, and actually just barely most of the time, and in fact on occasion Asada was lower. Even Ando received lower PCS than Meissner in the majority of head to head programs those almost 2 seasons, the season of Ando's first World title and as her being reigning World Champion. Even with flawed performances Meissner was receiving high PCS in the coming seasons, most times on par with the low to mid 7s she received at the 2006 Worlds (which back then was very high). Also far more likely Leonova will never again reach the PCS she did at the Moscow Worlds anywhere else, as it was generally felt she got a home court boost, and her PCS are always much lower than they were there.

    Meissner in her relatively short prime received much higher PCS amongst the top women than Leonova ever did.
     
  17. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    But isn't that what you were doing by stating that "performances fighting for the bronze this year would bearly have made the top 10 in previous years?" I was responding to you, my dear.

    That's so false, it's hilarious. Over time, elements have been removed from both the SP and FS, which means that scores, on average, are much lower than they would have been before 2011. Perfect example: Carolina Kostner skated a clean SP in the 2010-2011 GPF, and scored 62.13. Carolina Kostner skated a clean SP in the 2010 Euro. Champs, but with a lower base value on jumps. She scored 65.80 points there. In case you were wondering, her PCS was higher at this year's final. Why? In 2010, the spiral sequence added points to her SP score. This argument makes zero sense.

    You didn't pay attention to my wording. I didn't say she didn't get relatively high PCS in the future, I said she never got PCS as high ever again. Kindly direct me to the next time her PCS in an ISU sanctioned event was 60+, and I will shut up.

    By the way that comment about me smoking crack, totally classy. You truly are the definition of a classless and illogical person, judgejudy27. Your user name is an insult to the outrageous, yet highly intelligent real life figure. You might want to consider changing it to something like "tonyaharding94." It might more accurately represent your demeanor.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2011
  18. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    :watch:
     
  19. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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  20. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Jenna, I do think that the scoring, in general, does increase as well, mainly because judges are getting more comfortable using the higher scores in PCS. It's no surprise that the first ten given by a judge came in the Olympic season, and that skaters are seeing multiple tens by Worlds.

    Not sure who would've won in a head to head match, though. I know I don't care all that much, since the initial point that judgejudy was making - that the quality of skating in 2011 was quite low - stands regardless (as it was at the 2006 worlds for the ladies) of the presume victor of this hypothetical.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I was judging that by the quality of skating, not by scores which would have been obvious to anyone else but you. Of course even basic reading comprehension is not one of your fortes (well then again what is really, lol!). Since YOU chose to bring up scores that is far from in the favor of your argument as well though.

    I wont even bother with the rest of your drivel.
     
  22. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    How was I supposed to know that? You should have been more clear. Stop assuming that others can actually accurately comprehend the babble that you consistently write. If you have the gall to attack a college graduate with a B.A. in biology on her basic reading comprehension skills, perhaps you should pay attention to your own oversights in the English language. Even the brief passage above is littered with errors in grammar and punctuation. In the words of Judge Judy herself, "I on my worst day, am far more intelligent than you, on your best day!"

    I see you haven't renamed yourself yet. You should get on that. :rofl:
     
  23. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller President of Dick Button Appreciation Club

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    The scary thing is that the two 'Russian Babies' already have the poise & maturity to challenge the Czisnys. Let's not forget that the two "babies" handily beat many older ladies at Russian Nationals...and Russia is the land of artistry/ballet, in which judges understand artistry. The babies were not "gifted" high artistic marks. So they must have the poise and maturity right now.

    Speaking of judging artistry at a Russian Nationals...I will be very surprised to see how the judges score the choreography of a Marilyn Monroe-themed FS, as Makarova is planning. If it's done in a "campy" manner, forget it.
     
  24. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

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    Very true, but somehow the Russian ladies in singles have not been all that artistic/balletic (Irina Slutskaya, Alena Leonova) yet quite successful in competitions. Makarova is not artistic either. The baby ballerinas though seem to have the jumps and the balletic postures. Only time will tell how many will survive puberty, and how many have the nerves needed to win championships.
     
  25. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

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    I think Ainsworth was referring more to the American ladies than the international ones. IMO Sotnikova and Tuktamysheva have a lot of room to grow, but there is no doubt in my mind that they can and will be competitive with the veterans next season.

    As for the Americans, if I was Wagner and Nagasu, I would definitely be looking over my shoulder. How long have we been hearing about 3/3's from both camps and I've yet to see anything materialize. There are a lot of interesting skaters coming up the ranks and they may not be ready to challenge them now, but come 2014 the field looks to be a challenge. Especially if the US continues to retain only 2 spots. JMO
     
  26. Jenna

    Jenna Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Makarova is artistic in the classical, balletic sense. I do think she has great power, competitive fire, expression, and drama as shown in in last year's SP.