Why wasnt Sasha Cohen treated like Chan under IJS

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rickmercer, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Huh, who on earth skated clean? Turin was a splatfest. The best person she beat who sort of went clean was Fumie Sugurizzzzz and her Boremaninoff program which had only 5 triples. Slutskaya was a total mess with a huge splat, a major doubled jump, 2 or 3 shaky landings, lost levels, and still barely lost to Cohen who skated her absolute best ever outside those 2 mistakes. Cohen's 2nd miss wasnt scored as a fall so in the judges eyes she didnt even really fall twice btw.

    I see no evidence the judges saw Cohen with any mistake cushion, over someone who is actually any good. In fact the signs from the judges to me point that if Arakawa, Slutskaya, Kwan (under 6.0, probably not IJS), and young Asada skated their best they would beat Cohen even at her best. So for someone who thinks very highly of Cohen's skill set (which I dont) I could see how they feel she is underrated.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  2. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Sochi?

    Joannie Rochette?

    The fact that Cohen was able to compete with the likes of Slutskaya and Arakawa (who she often beat) who had bigger, better, and harder jumps and better skating skills is a definite proof of her being favored.
     
  3. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Rochette didnt skate cleanly in either program in Turin, and her short program was bad and scored mid 50 points, leaving her no chance of a medal. Her long was actually not even that great with a doubled jump and lots of shaky landings, one she hopped around out of, and she would have taken 2nd in the long with 1 more triple. This is also when Joannie was a relative nobody who had finished 11th at the previous years worlds, and not considered a top skater who had proven anything at the international level, and wasnt skating in the final flight due to her bad short program.
     
  4. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Well she had more spark, flair, and on ice personality than Shizuka, and far more line, grace, polish, and style than Slutskaya. She had the best spins and spirals in the world. Should that count for nothing. Anyway the times she beat them they always had mistakes. Can you think of a single time they were ever robbed against her. Do you really think Slutskaya deserved silver for that rubbish skate she did in Turin which had more mistakes than Cohen, an awful choreographed program, looked tired and ready to pass out through the last half of it, and where even the jumps and spins she did were poor quality that night. Shizuka was a hit or bomb skater, when she hit like 2004 worlds and 2006 Olympics she beat Cohen, when she bombed she came 9th or 10th. Cohen always limited her mistakes to 1 or 2 thus didnt ever finish 9th or 10th.

    Slutskaya in fact lost only twice to Cohen her whole career- 2002 grand prix final and 2006 Olympics, and she skated just AWFUL at both, so she has absolutely nothing to complain about in how she is scored vs Cohen over the years.
     
  5. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I don't think she had the best spiral at all. Her change of edge wasn't very impressive (especially relative to someone like Shizuka) and the pattern she made on the ice was a little on the wimpy side (especially relative to Shizuka again). I think there's more to a spiral than how high you can lift up your free leg in the air.
     
  6. Nadya

    Nadya New Member

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    This has nothing to do with skating skills. You misunderstand what that concept means. Compared to leading skaters of her time, Cohen had very weak blade control, no speed, no power, and poor control. This was especially obvious watching her live, where she was notably slower than others. From the ankle up, she was beautiful, from the ankle down she was on flats half the time.
     
  7. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I thought at the height of her career, a clean Cohen would probably be the favorite to win. So in that sense, the judges did think very highly of her, she just never skated clean. She was frequently first in the SP, so that proves that given roughly equal elements, judges were willing to put her 1st. I would not say she had even a 1 jump advantage over Kwan/Slute/Arawkawa, just a good chance to win if all things were equal. Since she always made more mistakes than the eventual winner at the biggest events, we can't say for sure that she would have won overall.

    But no, she's not Patrick Chan, he is a master at skating skills compared to his peers, and that is precisely where Sasha was weak. Some of Patrick's wins indicate that despite making several more mistakes, the judges thought his skating was so superior they still gave him the win. They did not think that way about Sasha (nor really anyone else that I can remember).
     
  8. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    I would say the judges would have put a clean Cohen over a clean Kwan at U.S Nationals in 2003, 2004, 2005, so yes in the U.S she became the favorite to win.

    At worlds and Olympics I am not as sure. She would have beaten Kwan for the gold at the 2003 worlds if she did the triple lutz-triple toe and 7 triples to Kwan's 6 but if she did the same jumps as Kwan she would lose to Kwan, and possibly even Sokolova since she did in qualifying. At the 2004 worlds she probably would have been gifted the gold over Shizuka had she gone clean, especialy when Kwan was nearly gifted the LP over Shizuka with only 5 triples anyway. At the 2005 worlds she was never beating Slutskaya if both were clean, nobody was. That event was Irina's party and nobody else was invited. At the 2006 Olympics I dont think she would have won if Irina or Shizuka skated cleanly with 6 or 7 triples, especialy if either did a triple-triple. So the only world and Olympic events that were obviously hers to lose were 2004 and 2006 worlds. Others like the 2003 worlds and 2006 Olympics she could have won but only through doing harder jumps than the favorite (2003 worlds) or others mistakes (2006 Olympics).
     
  9. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't think Cohen was a favorite at USN in 2003 or 2004. Maybe she had a shot going into 2005 USN, after beating Kwan at 2004 Worlds.

    Internationally, at 2003,Worlds, after coming in 3rd in her quality, with Suguri coasting to.the top of her much weaker quality group because of Slutskaya's absence, she was effectively buried. It's a lot of ifs for.Cohen to have two seven-triple clean programs and to be higher than 4th in the SP.

    Kwan was over marked in the SP in 2004, but still beat Cohen in the FS. The judges were ready for both Kwan and Cohen to beat Awakawa in Dortmund: with relatively weak skates, Cohen got three first place ordinals, and then Kwan took those and one more. Kwan was buried in the qualis, finishing behind Arakawa and Ando, and then she was in 4th in the SP, and she would have needed a lot of help and a very poor skate from Arakawa to win that title. she still beat Cohen in the FS.
     
  10. nguyhm

    nguyhm Member

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    I totally agree. It was so frustrating because she could have won just about any competition if only she had skated cleanly. Her presence on ice was amazing, her jumps were not high but her rotations were very fast = powerful (when landed cleanly) and her spirals were striking. IMO, Sasha lost because of her own demise, not because the others were better.
     
  11. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    I feel the opposite - she got a lot of air on her jumps and her feet were neat in the air, but very powerful is never how I'd describe Sasha. She didn't have enough edge strength to secure what power she managed in the air during the landing to have a powerful run out. Her spirals were striking as far as amplitude, as near vertical splits tend to be striking, but her ice coverage and edge depth were not.
     
  12. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    And Kwan had the best balance of both :p

    And VIETgrlTerifa beats me to it :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  13. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    nor was it very pronounced - it would almost look like she was on a flat and travelling close to a straight line both before and after, and with very little lean either way.
     
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think the US judges were ready to give Cohen the US title in 2004, hence the lead in the short and the 6.0 in the long despite falling. Who knew Kwan had that Tosca performance left in her?!

    Seeing Kwan's lesser participation since 2002 and losing her standing internationally at 2004 Worlds, the US judges were probably even more ready to give Cohen a lift. You just know it's gone for Kwan when she can't even win a cheesefest.

    If anything, I think she was way under-marked being placed behind Arakawa and Ando in the short when Arakawa cheated the 3/3 and Ando was meh.
     
  15. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that Kwan wasn't pushing the required elements in 2004. Her spiral sequence outside the COE spiral seemed weaker, she didn't do the combo spin she was capable of, didn't do an extra feature on her flying camel (unless you count the semi-layover position she had in 2004), and her footwork that was impressive in 2003 wasn't so impressive in 2004 when other skaters upped their game. However, Kwan's SP elements in 2005 were much better. She did better spirals (her outside edge spiral during her COE spiral had an even more stretched out position than she had in all the previous years she performed that move), did more difficult spins during her combo (and pushed the stretch of her Y), and her footwork was probably one of the best of the competition. I do wonder where she would have placed in 2004 if the ref didn't tag that .1 mandatory deduction on her SP, however.
     
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I love that camel position! She had all the COP capabilities (the camel variations, the COE on spins, the upright variations, the spiral positions, the footwork turns, all the PCS potential etc) - it's just a matter of putting it together, and overcoming her injuries. I think by 2004-5 her body was so beat that she could barely land those jumps cleanly, let alone doing more complex spins and choreography, but she was still 1 or 2 silly COP errors away from bronze at 2005 Worlds.

    Now if she only had me as her COP advisor back then :D
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think she would have loved to see into the future and realize that she could still do 7 triples and a double axel if she did a double axel/triple toe combination in the LP. I did like that she repeated the Lutz and Flip in 2005 and her jumps seemed to get bigger despite her being in a physical decline during the latter part of her career.
     
  18. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    But that layout is allowed even from day 1 of COP.

    The Liashenko layout. :D
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It was allowed, but for some reason a lot of the top skaters who transitioned from 6.0 to COP opted to instead do 3/3s. It seems like it wasn't until later on when the younger skaters realized they could still do 7 triples with the axel requirement if they did a triple in combination with the axel.
     
  20. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    People always say that but what evidence is there a clean Cohen would usually beat a clean Kwan or clean Slutskaya for instance. I think it is mostly her fans delusions other than reality.

    As for the thread question, simple. Sasha isnt as good as Chan. When Chan skates clean he is unbeatable, and was pretty much his whole career. Sasha going clean can still be beaten by others since she doesnt have his jumping, edges, artistry, footwork, or anything he does other than maybe spins.
     
  21. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    2006 Olympic SP is one piece of evidence.
     
  22. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    You mean a win by 0.03 over Slutskaya when lucking out to skate last, with Kwan and Asada not even skating. Yeah that is foolproof evidence a clean Cohen is unbeatable, LOL! That would only prove if both Irina and Sasha skate their best in the LP that Irina would win for sure since she would have atleast one 3-3 in the LP at her best and Sasha wouldnt, and even in the short doing the same jumps they were tied. Shizuka coming within a point proves in the LP at her hypothetical best she would win over Sasha too considering she would have the tougher jumps in the LP if she were skating her best.

    What about 2002 Worlds SP, 2003 Worlds qualifying round. Clean Sasha was placed only 3rd in both. Kwan had a mistake in both programs and even still took 1st. Elena freaking Sokolova has even beaten a clean Sasha Cohen more than once, Cup of Russia 2000 and Worlds qualifying round 2003. 2003, 2004, 2005 U.S nationals Kwan was given 6.0s which means even clean Sasha had no chance. 2005 worlds she had no chance to beat Irina, 2003 worlds she had no chance to beat Kwan. Doesnt sound unbeatable to me.
     
  23. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Worlds SP that she lost with the Robin Lake LP? Sasha Cohen won so many SPs in her career it's not even funny. Yet you insist she wasn't a thread for gold if clean. She just never put out a clean LP.

    And to consider what she did win in her career even despite ever-so-flawed free skates, you can't be serious.
     
  24. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    Kwan and Slutskaya have won many more short programs than Sasha in her career. Kwan has won 5 world or olympic short programs. Irina won the short program of 8 total world, olympic, or grand prix finals from 2000-2006, and was ahead of the eventual winner after the short of 3 others (2002 Olympics, 2000 worlds, 2006 olympics). Sasha only won the short program at her own Nationals three times, only twice when Kwan competed (once when she fell on a simple triple toe). So good for Sasha winning a few short programs, but even that doesnt put her ahead.

    I didnt say she wasnt a gold contender if she went clean and others made mistakes, but she wasnt unbeatable if she went clean, like her ardent fans potray. Now Patrick Chan is and always was unbeatable if he went clean. And therein lies the difference to Cohen and why a thread comparing them is stupid to begin with.

    Even had Sasha skated cleanly all the time the only events she would have won are the 2004 worlds (maybe), 2006 Olympics, and 2006 worlds, and the 2006 Olympics only due to others mistakes and the absences, and 2006 worlds in a joke of a field. She might still have only 1 U.S title.

    Now had king Patrick skated cleanly all the time he would have won the 2009 worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2010 worlds, 2011 worlds, all 7 world and Olympic titles from 2009-2014 Olympics in fact. No comparision to Cohen who does not have his skill set.
     
  25. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    And how is this relevant?

    I would say there was a sweet spot in her career when the judges would have given it to her had she gone clean, it would have been that stunning. However, I do agree that this thread is stupid and Cohen cannot be compared with Chan. Chan could be unbeatable with just a few minor mistakes and Cohen never had that kind of cushion.
     
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    In 2004 a substandard Cohen got three ordinals in her FS from a clean Arakawa, clean for that time, since under-rotation calls were judge-dependent and rolled into the tech mark, as were flutzes and lips. The writing was already on the wall when they gave the SP to Cohen.

    Cohen wasn't going to win in 2005: that was destined for Slutakaya in Moscow after her heroic comeback, as long as Slutskaya skated decently.

    US Nationals judges might have been willing to go with Cohen one year, if she could have pulled off a clean FS, but, on the whole, international judges rewarded Cohen as much as Kwan in the last few years of Kwan's career.
     
  27. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    It is relevant since I was responding to someone who said Sasha was unbeatable if she went clean. And there is nothing that shows this. Not her so called short program dominance which doesnt exist as Kwan and Slutskaya have won many more short programs in their career than she has. Winning an Olympic SP by 0.03 over someone who is capable of much harder jumper in the LP than you, and with Michelle Kwan not even competing, isnt proof of this, only that she is a threat if she goes clean which nobody was denying. Unbeatable, or cant be touched, umm no. That would be Chan.
     
  28. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Yup. Exactly.

    That's strange. It looks to me as if you were responding to my post. And yes, there was a point of Sasha's career and quite a few competitions where all she had to do was to be clean to win.
     
  29. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    I agree with this, but basically that just shows Sasha was only capable of winning a few more events had she been more consistent. She was never going to dominate or be a world beater. She just wasnt good enough. She wasnt a female Chan.

    People say oh it is so amazing Sasha could be 2nd to 4th with 1 or 2 mistakes. Well Patrick can win events and even big events with 4 or 5 big mistakes and has many times, so what does that say about him and how the judges view him then. Just look at the 2013 worlds. Patrick outright missed over half the jumps in his long program, either falling, practically falling, popping and still stepping out of, etc...and still won gold over Denis Ten who skated two clean and beautiful programs, and also has great artistry, great skating skills, big jumps, and strong spins. Patrick is a god.
     
  30. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Épaulement!!!

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    Wait, are you a Chan uber offended by the Cohen comparison? Is this what's happening? :lol: