Why wasnt Sasha Cohen treated like Chan under IJS

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rickmercer, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. Bostonfan

    Bostonfan Well-Known Member

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    No. But you kind of proved my point. Most everyone points to Schuba as undeserving of beating Janet Lynn under the rules of that era because she was bland and mechanical. When you are an appealing skater, it's harder for people to look beyond pointed toes and exquisite extension to examine the lack of depth in their fundamental skating.
  2. Bostonfan

    Bostonfan Well-Known Member

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    Regarding my last post, Sasha wasn't deficient by any means. She just lacked the consistency that comes from developing solid technique in her edges and some of her jumps. But her other qualities were wonderful and should not be disregarded.
  3. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I dont think most believe Schuba is undeserving of her titles. All those who understand the rules know why she won and her wins arent controversial. They just frusterate the heck out of people, that is all. Schuba should be respected greatly though, and I think is in her own way. The sport is called figure skating, and she is probably the best ever at the foundation of what the sport is. She was born in the right time of course, and would be insignificant today.
  4. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Sasha cant be compared to Chan. She doesnt have the godly skating skills, the huge and beautiful jumps, the amazing footwork, or the complex choreography and transitions he does. He even surpasses her in her strengths- spins, elegance, lines, performance skills. So it makes sense he has a 5 falls cushion on his competitors, while she doesnt have any fall cushion on Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, or Suguri.
  5. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    What's so special about Patrick's lines?
  6. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    His back line is unbelievable, he never slouches for a moment (Hanyu bad-posture please take note). His back is imo the best in the world.

    The rest of his lines are nice but not incredible.
  7. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Basic skating skills, transitions. Chan was/is in a different league compared to Sasha.
  8. tarotx

    tarotx Well-Known Member

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    Chan probably shouldn't have the advantage that he has had but his blade work is to die for. I love to watch him move on the ice. He has powerful jumps because he has killer on ice and air technique so even when he falls or falters it's usually just one portion of the jump that has deduction.

    Sasha is not the same type of skater as Chan. She is a wonderful skater with flexibility, line and skating that is very distinct though. I also think she had nice looking jumps in the air. She used what she could do with grace and originality but her blade work wasn't great. It's hard to ever see that though since she moved well and beautifully. She found ways to make foot work and moves in the field look good and have difficulty. And she improved a lot over the years so you can see she worked hard no matter that people liked to accuse differently.
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    To see her improvement, compare her 2002 LP to her 2006 one and one can see a marked difference. To me, the level of actual skating skills improved greatly. She still wasn't in the same league as Kwan, Arakawa, Suguri, and Slutskaya in that respect, but she closed the gap a bit and brought those other things that people loved. I think you can even see the difference between 2003 through 2004 and 2006.
  10. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Patrick also doesnt deserve the 5 fall or so margin he is given by judges, and some of his wins are a huge controversy and semi farce. I agree Sasha's basic skating improved alot after 2002, but never to the point it was as good as her main rivals, let alone much better than anyone else like Chan is. Had Sasha Chan's skating skills she would atleast have a 2 fall margin over Kwan, Slutskaya, and the rest, and it would be deserved, and that is all he deserves as well but is so loved for whatever reason he is given more. Maybe some big paycheques behind the scenes from Skate Canada, who knows.

    Sasha also improved her choreography, transitions, and musical interpretation alot after 2002. Before 2002 she just had great spins, spirals, and nice positions, but not much else. Bare empty choreography and not much musicality. Her Carmen in 2002 shows this.
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Patrick Chan never really had a "5 fall cushion" over other skaters though, did he? If he actually won a competition with a total 5 falls between the SP and LP, that was probably due to the closest competitor having like 3 falls or a fall and a few pops or something that was also pretty costly.
  12. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Well I remember him having 4 falls and winning Skate Canada easily over a 1 fall Oda once, and that is when Oda was one of the very top in the world, maybe 2nd to Chan.

    At Russia later that year he had the equivalent of 7 falls of mistakes counting the falls, a downgrade call on his quad, zayaking, and still nearly beat a totally clean Verner.

    I basically stopped counting after that as I was too disgusted to study the protocals of any event Chan was in, erred, and still won in, but his cushion at one point anyway was probably atleast 5 falls. He won the 2011-2012 grand prix final and 2012 worlds with a ton of mistakes too, although it probably wasnt 5 falls worth. Worlds last year was a disaester, 4 huge mistakes in the long and still winning over Ten who had 2 clean and beautiful skates.

    Even the Games he had 5 mistakes over the 2 programs, even if none was an outright fall. Hanyu had only 2 and a higher planned base value in the LP by 8 points, and Hanyu still barely won.

    He deserves a fall cushion over his competitors more than anyone else, certainly more than Sasha ever would. Sasha is a beautiful and great skater when she is on, but I can still understand given the shortcoming of her skating how she could even possibly skate clean and lose to Slutskaya, Arakawa, or Kwan if they are spectacular. However I still find it too much.
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  13. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Sasha had the position levels. Chan had the skating skills. What Chan had was more easily rewarded, although that might seem counterintuitive.
  14. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

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    Chan (for most of his career) had the quad and quad/triple combo (excellent ones). Sure, a couple of skaters did the quad sal but it was very rarely landed. Cohen did not have anything close to a consistent 3/3 while a direct competitors did have it.
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    ITA. She was a great figures skater, from what I have heard. Those days the rules were different and there is no reason to devalue the titles she won fair and square.

    BTW it's 'frustrate' (not 'frusterate')
  16. Xela M

    Xela M New Member

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    I don't know why, but this post made me laugh :D I agree about Chan's cushion, which was ridiculous at times and even beat Yagudin's "2 falls" cushion.
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Her spiral was so undeniable, so perfect and magical in all respects except the strength as reflected in the ice coverage. Slutskaya got amazing speed holding a spiral from start to finish, and Sasha did not. It's one of the trade offs with strength vs flexibility.
  18. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Until last year Chan actually had a 4 falls cushion. Earlier he had beaten a no-fall Ten, no-fall (but a few flaws) Takahashi. It was only after a real challenger with potential appeared (Hanyu), the judges started being tougher on Chan. His basic skills are outstanding, and he easily deserves a one fall cushion, but no longer a fall and multiple bobbles type cushion.

    Sasha had beautiful lines and positions, but to me, the most important thing is how the blade moves across the ice. Her skating skills, though vastly improved, were never top notch like Chan's. She had to skate clean, to beat a clean Kwan or a clean Slutskaya who had better skating skills.
  19. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Winning Olympic silver with 2 falls, over skaters who skated clean? It was in the earlier days of IJS, but Cohen did have her fair share of favoritism and a pretty comfortable PCS cushion. And that's when she didn't even come close to Chan's skating skills or technical content. I also found her overrated.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Or you can find a great balance in both. Look at Michelle Kwan and Shizuka Arakawa.
  21. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Huh, who on earth skated clean? Turin was a splatfest. The best person she beat who sort of went clean was Fumie Sugurizzzzz and her Boremaninoff program which had only 5 triples. Slutskaya was a total mess with a huge splat, a major doubled jump, 2 or 3 shaky landings, lost levels, and still barely lost to Cohen who skated her absolute best ever outside those 2 mistakes. Cohen's 2nd miss wasnt scored as a fall so in the judges eyes she didnt even really fall twice btw.

    I see no evidence the judges saw Cohen with any mistake cushion, over someone who is actually any good. In fact the signs from the judges to me point that if Arakawa, Slutskaya, Kwan (under 6.0, probably not IJS), and young Asada skated their best they would beat Cohen even at her best. So for someone who thinks very highly of Cohen's skill set (which I dont) I could see how they feel she is underrated.
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2014
  22. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    Huh? Sochi?

    Joannie Rochette?

    The fact that Cohen was able to compete with the likes of Slutskaya and Arakawa (who she often beat) who had bigger, better, and harder jumps and better skating skills is a definite proof of her being favored.
  23. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Rochette didnt skate cleanly in either program in Turin, and her short program was bad and scored mid 50 points, leaving her no chance of a medal. Her long was actually not even that great with a doubled jump and lots of shaky landings, one she hopped around out of, and she would have taken 2nd in the long with 1 more triple. This is also when Joannie was a relative nobody who had finished 11th at the previous years worlds, and not considered a top skater who had proven anything at the international level, and wasnt skating in the final flight due to her bad short program.
  24. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Well she had more spark, flair, and on ice personality than Shizuka, and far more line, grace, polish, and style than Slutskaya. She had the best spins and spirals in the world. Should that count for nothing. Anyway the times she beat them they always had mistakes. Can you think of a single time they were ever robbed against her. Do you really think Slutskaya deserved silver for that rubbish skate she did in Turin which had more mistakes than Cohen, an awful choreographed program, looked tired and ready to pass out through the last half of it, and where even the jumps and spins she did were poor quality that night. Shizuka was a hit or bomb skater, when she hit like 2004 worlds and 2006 Olympics she beat Cohen, when she bombed she came 9th or 10th. Cohen always limited her mistakes to 1 or 2 thus didnt ever finish 9th or 10th.

    Slutskaya in fact lost only twice to Cohen her whole career- 2002 grand prix final and 2006 Olympics, and she skated just AWFUL at both, so she has absolutely nothing to complain about in how she is scored vs Cohen over the years.
  25. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    I don't think she had the best spiral at all. Her change of edge wasn't very impressive (especially relative to someone like Shizuka) and the pattern she made on the ice was a little on the wimpy side (especially relative to Shizuka again). I think there's more to a spiral than how high you can lift up your free leg in the air.
  26. Nadya

    Nadya New Member

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    This has nothing to do with skating skills. You misunderstand what that concept means. Compared to leading skaters of her time, Cohen had very weak blade control, no speed, no power, and poor control. This was especially obvious watching her live, where she was notably slower than others. From the ankle up, she was beautiful, from the ankle down she was on flats half the time.
  27. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I thought at the height of her career, a clean Cohen would probably be the favorite to win. So in that sense, the judges did think very highly of her, she just never skated clean. She was frequently first in the SP, so that proves that given roughly equal elements, judges were willing to put her 1st. I would not say she had even a 1 jump advantage over Kwan/Slute/Arawkawa, just a good chance to win if all things were equal. Since she always made more mistakes than the eventual winner at the biggest events, we can't say for sure that she would have won overall.

    But no, she's not Patrick Chan, he is a master at skating skills compared to his peers, and that is precisely where Sasha was weak. Some of Patrick's wins indicate that despite making several more mistakes, the judges thought his skating was so superior they still gave him the win. They did not think that way about Sasha (nor really anyone else that I can remember).
  28. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    I would say the judges would have put a clean Cohen over a clean Kwan at U.S Nationals in 2003, 2004, 2005, so yes in the U.S she became the favorite to win.

    At worlds and Olympics I am not as sure. She would have beaten Kwan for the gold at the 2003 worlds if she did the triple lutz-triple toe and 7 triples to Kwan's 6 but if she did the same jumps as Kwan she would lose to Kwan, and possibly even Sokolova since she did in qualifying. At the 2004 worlds she probably would have been gifted the gold over Shizuka had she gone clean, especialy when Kwan was nearly gifted the LP over Shizuka with only 5 triples anyway. At the 2005 worlds she was never beating Slutskaya if both were clean, nobody was. That event was Irina's party and nobody else was invited. At the 2006 Olympics I dont think she would have won if Irina or Shizuka skated cleanly with 6 or 7 triples, especialy if either did a triple-triple. So the only world and Olympic events that were obviously hers to lose were 2004 and 2006 worlds. Others like the 2003 worlds and 2006 Olympics she could have won but only through doing harder jumps than the favorite (2003 worlds) or others mistakes (2006 Olympics).
  29. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I don't think Cohen was a favorite at USN in 2003 or 2004. Maybe she had a shot going into 2005 USN, after beating Kwan at 2004 Worlds.

    Internationally, at 2003,Worlds, after coming in 3rd in her quality, with Suguri coasting to.the top of her much weaker quality group because of Slutskaya's absence, she was effectively buried. It's a lot of ifs for.Cohen to have two seven-triple clean programs and to be higher than 4th in the SP.

    Kwan was over marked in the SP in 2004, but still beat Cohen in the FS. The judges were ready for both Kwan and Cohen to beat Awakawa in Dortmund: with relatively weak skates, Cohen got three first place ordinals, and then Kwan took those and one more. Kwan was buried in the qualis, finishing behind Arakawa and Ando, and then she was in 4th in the SP, and she would have needed a lot of help and a very poor skate from Arakawa to win that title. she still beat Cohen in the FS.
  30. nguyhm

    nguyhm New Member

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    I totally agree. It was so frustrating because she could have won just about any competition if only she had skated cleanly. Her presence on ice was amazing, her jumps were not high but her rotations were very fast = powerful (when landed cleanly) and her spirals were striking. IMO, Sasha lost because of her own demise, not because the others were better.
  31. Subway

    Subway New Member

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    I feel the opposite - she got a lot of air on her jumps and her feet were neat in the air, but very powerful is never how I'd describe Sasha. She didn't have enough edge strength to secure what power she managed in the air during the landing to have a powerful run out. Her spirals were striking as far as amplitude, as near vertical splits tend to be striking, but her ice coverage and edge depth were not.
  32. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    And Kwan had the best balance of both :p

    And VIETgrlTerifa beats me to it :D
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  33. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    nor was it very pronounced - it would almost look like she was on a flat and travelling close to a straight line both before and after, and with very little lean either way.
  34. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think the US judges were ready to give Cohen the US title in 2004, hence the lead in the short and the 6.0 in the long despite falling. Who knew Kwan had that Tosca performance left in her?!

    Seeing Kwan's lesser participation since 2002 and losing her standing internationally at 2004 Worlds, the US judges were probably even more ready to give Cohen a lift. You just know it's gone for Kwan when she can't even win a cheesefest.

    If anything, I think she was way under-marked being placed behind Arakawa and Ando in the short when Arakawa cheated the 3/3 and Ando was meh.
  35. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that Kwan wasn't pushing the required elements in 2004. Her spiral sequence outside the COE spiral seemed weaker, she didn't do the combo spin she was capable of, didn't do an extra feature on her flying camel (unless you count the semi-layover position she had in 2004), and her footwork that was impressive in 2003 wasn't so impressive in 2004 when other skaters upped their game. However, Kwan's SP elements in 2005 were much better. She did better spirals (her outside edge spiral during her COE spiral had an even more stretched out position than she had in all the previous years she performed that move), did more difficult spins during her combo (and pushed the stretch of her Y), and her footwork was probably one of the best of the competition. I do wonder where she would have placed in 2004 if the ref didn't tag that .1 mandatory deduction on her SP, however.
  36. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I love that camel position! She had all the COP capabilities (the camel variations, the COE on spins, the upright variations, the spiral positions, the footwork turns, all the PCS potential etc) - it's just a matter of putting it together, and overcoming her injuries. I think by 2004-5 her body was so beat that she could barely land those jumps cleanly, let alone doing more complex spins and choreography, but she was still 1 or 2 silly COP errors away from bronze at 2005 Worlds.

    Now if she only had me as her COP advisor back then :D
  37. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think she would have loved to see into the future and realize that she could still do 7 triples and a double axel if she did a double axel/triple toe combination in the LP. I did like that she repeated the Lutz and Flip in 2005 and her jumps seemed to get bigger despite her being in a physical decline during the latter part of her career.
  38. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    But that layout is allowed even from day 1 of COP.

    The Liashenko layout. :D
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    It was allowed, but for some reason a lot of the top skaters who transitioned from 6.0 to COP opted to instead do 3/3s. It seems like it wasn't until later on when the younger skaters realized they could still do 7 triples with the axel requirement if they did a triple in combination with the axel.
  40. annabrown

    annabrown Member

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    People always say that but what evidence is there a clean Cohen would usually beat a clean Kwan or clean Slutskaya for instance. I think it is mostly her fans delusions other than reality.

    As for the thread question, simple. Sasha isnt as good as Chan. When Chan skates clean he is unbeatable, and was pretty much his whole career. Sasha going clean can still be beaten by others since she doesnt have his jumping, edges, artistry, footwork, or anything he does other than maybe spins.