Why wasnt Sasha Cohen treated like Chan under IJS

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by rickmercer, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    IJS has meant quality can overcome mistakes more easily. Patrick Chan is the best example of this, winning many events with tons of falls and mistakes over clean(er) performances. Why was this not for Sasha too. Shouldnt the quality of her landed jumps, superior spins, superior spirals, and superior basic skating and artistry overcome her mistakes and won her titles over clean(er) performances by her rivals like it did for him. This never happened though. What is the difference.
  2. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa Port de bras!!!

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    I say this as a Sasha uber: she did not have anything close to Chan's SS. His SS are legend and the gold standard. Can we close the thread now? :D
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Sasha didn't even have the best SS among her competitors. Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, Suguri, and Kostner were ahead of her in that area. Her spirals had the best split position, but I think some of the above skaters had her beat in ice coverage and speed on their sequences. Her jumps were not as high as Slutskaya's and Arakawa's and she did not perform them consistently nor did she manage to do 3/3s. She also flutzed badly. It's also not as if she was performing tons of transitions either. Sasha may have had some of the best spins in that quad, but Irina and Arakawa were able to keep up with her in terms of gaining points.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  4. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Well my point is she had great skating skills. I mean there are other guys with great SS you could argue as even better than Chan too probably, but it doesnt mean that isnt one reason for his overall package being considered so dominant and given him a 4 or 5 fall cushion the judges give him on the rest.

    Shizuka was so overscored in Turin it wasnt even funny. She not only didnt try the 3-3s, but doubled two other jumps too, and still got that huge score. Sasha could have skated cleanly with 7 triples and still lost to a 2 mistake Shizuka without also a 3-3 and only 5. Terrible. Shizuka's short at those Games sucked, and should have had only about 60 points, 4th place behind Suguri, but almost tied the amazing shorts of Irina and Sasha. The Japanese fed. probably bought her gold medal before the games began.
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think the reason why Chan gets the cushion he receives is because he still manages to rack up points on his TES due to him performing enough difficulty over his competitors. That's something Sasha never did. Also, Chan's skating skills is considered some of the best of all time and allows him to skate with excellent speed, perform difficult transitions, and complex choreography. That all helps with his PCS even with mistakes. Cohen doesn't even come close to him or Arakawa and Slutskaya in that regard (I'm not counting Kwan as Kwan only competed under IJS once). Yes her skating skills definitely improved after 2002 where they were really weak, but she skated in an era where the top ladies had excellent skating skills (noticeably better than Sasha's).
  6. bronwynsings

    bronwynsings Active Member

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    Who do you think has better SS than Chan, exactly? Not saying that all his other competitors have horrible SS, but as IceAlisa said, Chan's SS are legendary.
  7. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Sasha though is a more soulful skater who skates with more elegance, beauty, and wonderful positions than Patrick. Much better interpretation of music and performing skills than him too.
  8. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Kozuka and Oda I think do, or atleast as good.
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  9. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Slutskaya doesnt skate with beauty and elegance like Sasha does though. She also doesnt have pretty positions or lines. Her spins had also declined by Turin, and were no longer as great as Sasha. Her jumps in Turin werent good like usual, she got mostly 0s for even her landed jumps in the Turin LP (talking about Irina).
  10. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Seconded.

    All Sasha had to do to win pretty much anything ever was go clean. Just once. The whole community was willing to hand her all the medals, and she just never put it together.
  11. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    I think the only events the judging were willing to give her even clean were 2000 U.S nationals, 2003 U.S nationals, 2004 U.S Nationals, 2005 U.S Nationals, 2006 U.S Nationals, 2006 worlds, 2004 worlds, and the grand prix final she lost to Suguri. So there are some events she would have lost even clean like 2005 worlds and 2006 olympics and 2002 U.S Nationals and maybe 2003 worlds, let alone with the many fall cushion everyone says Patrick deserves fully with no controversy under IJS.
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    You can't compare Sasha to Patrick. You have to compare Sasha with her competition and Patrick with his competition. Interpretation and performance/execution have their own guidelines that not just making faces and looking soulful. A lot of it has to do with the substance of one's skating. Also, those only make up two of the five PCS scores. Add in TES and you have your answer. Sasha did not really have an advantage in her jumps (she was actually disadvantaged when Shizuka and Irina were on). In terms of spins and spirals, it's not like Shizuka and Irina were slobs in gaining maximum levels and positive GOEs on their spins and spirals.

    Anyway, Patrick's wins and cushion have been the basis of some of the most heated debates on here, so I wouldn't say they go without controversy.
  13. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Sasha's hugely flawed FS that got her a silver in Torino says that the judges were ready to give it to her. But she messed up bad enough that she didn't get the gold.

    I'm not saying I have a problem with her silver medal, but she was scored generously for what she put out. That was the case almost always; they were ready to give it to her and then she messed up.

    IJS scoring is also way different than it used to be. It is almost like a different system now compared to 2003-2006
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  14. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    As a Sasha fan I will say that her scores for interpretation were always too low, but the bottom line is that Chan is like the Kwan of men's skating and could not be beaten. There is a quality and security there that nobody else was able to match, and he attempted all the hardest tricks. Sasha's jumps got watered down through the years. While she could do harder tricks she left them out. She did not have the edges of a Kwan, and she sometimes let the performance level drop. Her perfectionism was a nemesis, and it was an unfortunate one because she was simply the most gifted skater.
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  15. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    Also Sasha may have been the most gifted ever in pure lines, style, carriage, beautiful everything. But she was never the most gifted in the skating skills department.

    There were many great things about her jumps, tight feet and an effortless floaty quality when she got them right, but her edges let her down. Her edging was poor and when you look at her flip and lutz for example, you can totally see it. Sound edges going into jumps hold up under pressure, messy ones do not. I have always felt it was her edges that caused her jumps to go awry when the pressure was on. The edges would sway and change and the timing would go. Her flip was the worst offender.
  16. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    There really hasn't been a skater with balletic lines since Sasha (Alissa Czisny came close), but I see great potential in Polina Edmunds.

    But I agree, beautiful line and carriage don't equate to skating skills.

    The 3T would often go wonky, too.
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    She competed in an era with Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, Suguri. So no, she doesn't have great skating skills compared to her direct competitors. Her skating has always been small and no where near as secure as those other skaters I mentioned. Give her the PE and CH and IN scores you want, but I feel her SS were always already on the high side.

    Chan's skating skills are unreal. I don't think there is anyone on par.

    Arakawa doubled 2 jumps but got in 2 beautiful lutzes, Cohen fell on 2 jumps and had no lutz. Still, Arakawa only won by 8 points. Cohen could have won, mathematically, if she landed the opening 3 jump lutz combo. Arakawa code-whored as much as Slutskaya did (4 donuts vs 4 Biellmanns) and earned every single point and thus, the win.

    In all honesty, Arakawa didn't win it so much as Slutskaya and Cohen lost it.
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  18. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Another joke thread and we're 10 days post April Fools. :shuffle:

    Marco: "Chan's skating skills are unreal. I don't think there is anyone on par."

    Word. Cohen was often criticized throughout her career, particularly early on prior to 2004, about her shallow edges. Compared to Chan, Cohen's footwork sequences look pretty basic.
  19. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Shizuka's skating skills were better than Sasha's. Although Sasha was a better spinner, Arakawa jumps had more amplitude, she had way deeper edges (I can't believe how wimpy Sasha's edges were), and I personally thought Shizuka had a far better spiral in that not only did she hold her position for longer but her edge control was far better and she made a much bigger pattern on the ice than Sasha did. I honestly think Sasha was one of the more overhyped and overrated skaters in the history of the sport.
  20. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    why do you keep harping on shiz's lack of 3/3 in Torino. The only lady in the entire top 10 from Torino even attempting a 3/3 was Kimmie Meisner. Do you think Kimmie should have won?
    :rofl:
    Too bad they ran out of cash and couldn't buy OGMs for Mao. :p
  21. Bostonfan

    Bostonfan Well-Known Member

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    For me, Sasha was the ultimate example of style over substance in terms of skating. Style can camouflage weakness in the foundation (to use a construction metaphor) making people feel the skater is not being rewarded appropriately. Conversely, those with strong skating foundation, but weak presentation and style are always viewed as less deserving of being scored generously. Sasha benefited enormously from her exquisite style, but wasn't able to sustain a high level of quality in the substantive parts of her skating.
  22. NinjaTurtles

    NinjaTurtles Teenage Mutant

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    IJS was well suited for Cohen, who was already doing many of the things rewarded under the new system (e.g., changing to an outside edge during spins, complicated spin combinations, MITF as transitions). I think Cohen and Chan share similarities in that they both brought a distinct and appreciated style to the ice.
  23. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

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    Precisely. What she did have was performance quality that was stunning -- like Nicole Bobek, she demanded your attention, though maybe not as much as Nicole did.

    Where you really saw how deficient Sasha was in skating skills was during practices at major events -- before the SP you'd often see Sasha and Michelle on the ice together, and Michelle's edges and speed had it all over Sasha, whether she was stroking, doing a spiral, or doing footwork. During practices before the free skate, you'd see Sasha vs. other top skaters, and again she fell really short while at the same time always striking beautiful positions.

    Nothing like Chan other than their ability to fall.
  24. crisp

    crisp New Member

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    Sasha is the opposite of Chan, maybe would be nearer to the female Brown.
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2014
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    That is amazing to read that kind of threads. The reason is obvious, and it's not flattering for Sasha Cohen. ;)
  26. crisp

    crisp New Member

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    ITA.

    (That said, I think that the points difference between Sasha's 06Oly SP and Arakawa's should have been larger.)
  27. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    It probably would have been if Cohen's 2axel wasn't wonky.
  28. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I think all Sasha had going for her was flexibility, which was incredible but not everything. Without consistent jumps, and somewhat wobbly skating skills, her flexibility often wasn't enough to put her at the top.
  29. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    Let's be fair here.

    By no means were Sasha's skating skills deficient, they just weren't up to Chan's (in the context of this post).

    Her edges and speed *did* improve over time, and she never lost her flexibility (though I wonder if strength was sacrificed for that).

    Remember, Sasha competed at a time when programs were jam-packed (there's one less spin and spiral sequence today). She could've taken Slutskaya's route or Arakawa's route and racked up points with the same move (Biellman and reverse layover donut spin, respectively), but instead offered a variety of beautiful and difficult spin positions. And of course her spiral was spectacular, even if it didn't perhaps have Kwan's edges. So I think she deserves some credit for her style, choreography and interpretation.

    Yes, she was known for her SashaSplat, but rarely did she pop a jump. She went for it.

    As for Arakawa, her spirals at the Olympics are one of the most impressive things I've seen on ice ... ever.
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  30. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Glad to see another person acknowledge this. Not only did she show amazing flexibility but her edge control was stunning and the pattern she made was gigantic. IMO it was the greatest spiral ever done in ice skating, at least that I've seen.
  31. UMBS Go Blue

    UMBS Go Blue KWEEN 2016! YES WE KWAN!

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    THIS. :respec:
  32. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    I have never been a fan of Chan's skating, but you cannot deny that what he does with his blades is simply a notch higher than the rest of the pack. Not only are his edges divine, but he uses every spare moment of his program to highlight excellence in turns, MITF, and bits of footwork. The only skaters who have put together programs that are even in the same universe during his competitive era would be Abbott and Kozuka. You have skaters like Oda, who have the goods, but they don't put out programs that reflect their full capabilities. Just look at Amodio...say what you want, but the boy has great edges. Unfortunately, he'd rather dance in place to gather strength for long stretches of jump/crossovers/jump/crossovers instead of showing good skating.

    When it comes to Sasha, she was extremely gifted as a performer, and less so as a skater. The only part of her actual skating that really stood out were her spins, and as others have said, Arakawa and Slutskaya were not far enough behind for it to give her a significant advantage. To her credit, she really DID make great strides in the skating skills department but not enough for it to become a true strength.
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  33. staceyliving

    staceyliving New Member

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    If Sasha had Patricks skating skills, jump quality, footwork, and difficult choreography she would probably have the same 4 or 5 advantage over Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, Hughes as Chan has over everyone else by the judges. Unfortunately she has none of those things. The only areas she is the female equivalent to Patrick are interpretation, spins, and lines and style.
  34. NYScorp6

    NYScorp6 Member

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    Sasha did very well under the new scoring system. I don't really see why the haters need to pounce as if she is some mid level skater. She was a star for almost 2 complete quads and the judges loved her.

    The crazy PCS scores being issued today are the judges way of propping up certain skaters similar to the 6.0 system. Only now the judges have the ability of giving someone a PCS of 9.5 vs. 8.75 when only .01 scoring differential is needed to win. Under the 6.0 system it was 5.9 vs. 5.8 with ordinals being a factor also. It gives them greater leverage to keep certain skaters propped up. (Although it didn't work out that way in Sochi).
  35. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Cohen's base score at was .2 higher than Arakawa's, so even though Arakawa did not have any 3/3's, she still did one more multiple-jump element than Cohen, and if a skater falls or nearly falls on her first two jump elements and biffs the 3/3 sequence (base reduced by 80%) and loses 7 points on nearly half of her jump elements, and has Level 2 steps, she'll have quite a deficit to make up, especially when her opponent got two -1 marks in total, no?

    Then perhaps your thread title should be, "Why haven't Kozuka and Oda been treated like Chan under IJS"
  36. rickmercer

    rickmercer Member

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    Oda has childish artistry and programs, so doesnt take advantage of his combination of skating skills and strong jumps. Such immature skating cant be given high PCS no matter how strong the skating skills are. Kozuka is inconsistent as heck and always crashing and burning. He skated a great LP at the 2011 worlds but bombed the short so couldnt win with Chan skating 2 perfect programs.
  37. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Perhaps the judges weren't immune to all of the overhype. I thought she was overscored in some of the pcs categories. Yes, she had nice extension, toe point, and presentation but that doesn't make up for what's lacking and there's a lot lacking in her skating.
  38. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    So would you prefer Trixie Schuba? Her foundation was wide and strong.
  39. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Those aren't the only two choices. Also, Schuba had the best figures in the world, but I don't think it translated to her free skates from what I saw. Lynn's skating skills were way more impressive in the free skate.
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Schuba did show moments of quite good skating skills in the free skating even though. There were little bits of footwork and edge steps she did which were very nifty and nice. The rest of her skating was hefty and cumbersome though, and her spins were horrible.