Why Tonya Harding Is The Greatest Skater Of All Time

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Ziggy, May 19, 2010.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Her jumps have nowhere near as much height and she has neither a 3axel nor any (consistent) 3/3 combinations.

    Yes her jumps are usually of a very nice quality when landed, but she's light years away from Tonya.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2010
  2. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Tonya didn't have a 3/3 either, al least consistent. I have only seen her landing it at the 91 Nationals and it was a toe/toe. Rochette had that combination too back in 2005 or 06, I think. Her sequences of toe/sal are impressive too
    Of course, I agree Harding was way ahead in jumping ability
     
  3. robinhood

    robinhood Active Member

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    Well she's the most complete and well rounded jumper at the moment. Bar the triple axel she's got all the other ones consistent and with great quality, too
     
  4. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    Rochette was falling on triple axel attempts in practice at 2003 Worlds. So at least she was close enough at that time to show the attempts in public.
     
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  5. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    did i step into the twilight zone or sth? I do respect that she was an amazing jumper
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Of the current women the one who would come closest to Harding in jumping quality would be Yu Na Kim but she not only doesnt have a triple axel she doesnt even really have all 5 other triples since she isnt doing the triple loop anymore. Asada is right up there in difficulty but not in jump quality.
     
  7. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    And even Mao doesn't attempt the 3Lutz nor the 3Salchow. Midori and Tonya in their primes attempted the 3Axel AND all the other 5 basic triples that the other ladies attempted. I think of today's ladies skaters, if you combined the technique and quality of Kim's and Rochette's jumps with the 3Axel attempts of Asada, then we'd have an Ito/Harding caliber skater in terms of ladies' jumping.
     
  8. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I added up the base value for Tonya's jumps in her famous '91 Skate America performance, and even though she does one of each triple (6 total), it's not that impressive of a number. Makes you go hmmm....
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah that is true, but I give Mao credit for doing 3 triple axels over the 2 programs, making her first women who is actually doing more triple axels per competition than Ito and Harding ever were (that is not a knock on Ito or Harding of course, it has taken 18 years for this to finally happen) but yeah she isnt doing a full compliment of triples most times either and getting a 3/3 in which isnt downgraded is a challenge as well for her.
     
  10. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    Well, if Ito and Harding could have gotten away with only showing 3-4 kinds of triples, they probably could have done 3 triple axels over the course of an SP & LP.
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder how much a skater would have been hurt under 6.0 in the post Trenary era not doing all the other triples, even if they did something like the triple axel.
     
  12. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

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    Well, I think that very thing cost Tonya the '91 World title... ;)
     
  13. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    We do not know that. Between 1989 :puppet: Nationals to 1991 Nationals, about half the footage of Tonya's skating is unavailable. In that time, Tonya at least won the 1990 Nations Cups (a former GP event in Germany later known as Sparkassen Cup and Bofrost Cup) and she was the first American to ever win the Moscow News Cup (later known as the Cup of Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union) in 1989.
     
  14. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Well, A LOT, considering under the technical score there was no metered level of value, so the:

    first 3A (1 first rate jump)= first 3Lz (1 first rate jump)= first 3F (1 first rate jump)= first 3Lp (1 first rate jump)= top quality layback spin (1 first rate spin)
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  15. IceKween

    IceKween New Member

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    She made two major errors. The 1toe-2toe, and then the doubled salchow at the end. I think she might have gotten a few ordinals at least had she nailed her 3salchow at the end, but it just seemed her program fizzled. And ending a program to Wild Thing is kinda iffy to begin with, especially without a final punch.
     
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If she had done the triple toe-triple toe I am sure she would have won even with the doubled salchow. Kristi missed the salchow too so that wouldnt have hurt her on its own.
     
  17. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    Caryn Kadavy won the Moscow News in the fall of 1985. Skated beautifully there where I think she landed 4 triples. Kadavy won all 4 of her internationals
    between the fall of 85 and the fall of 87: Skate Canada, Moscow News, Golden Spin (didn't skate well at all there but neither did her competition Anna Kondrashova), and St Ivel.

    Harding skated well at Bofrost Cup in the fall of 89. She fell on the 3A attempt but landed 5 other triples. Shockingly Marina Keilmann gave her a real run for her money by skating really well there. She might have landed 6 triples, at least 5. I'm pretty sure PBS showed some of Bofrost Cup in 89. They had hilites of the event and an interview with Harding but didn't show her complete performance......I think. German tv showed the event and I have a bad quality copy of Harding's performance from there.

    Oh, one other thing about Harding....at 88 US Nationals in the LP she landed a 3lp/3toe combo. Eeked out the 3t but I'm pretty sure it was clean.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2010
  18. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :eek:
     
  19. neptune

    neptune Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why she didn't attempt the triple-triple more often? Did she have one planned in Albertville and then just opted out?

    It's interesting to speculate how much Tonya would have achieved had she been really dedicated. Midori was certainly dedicated, but results-wise in major int'l events, she really didn't achieve a ton more than Tonya. The biggest difference was Midori's one world title. They each had one silver medal at Worlds, and then Midori skated slightly better than Tonya at the Olympics. (Of course, most fans agree that Midori deserved a medal at the '88 Olympics too.) I wonder if Tonya would ever have won Worlds or the Olympics? No matter how good you are, nerves can always come into play. I do think she would easily have won '93 Nationals at least. ;) And as the top U.S. lady, no reason she couldn't have won '93 Worlds or the '94 Olympics.

    I also wonder how many other Tonya Hardings there are out there, in terms of talent. Statistically speaking, if you chose a random sample of 10,000 girls, how many of them would possess the raw athletic talent to become the next Tonya Harding? I have no idea, but it's intriguing to speculate.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2010
  20. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    I wonder how much Tonya would have achieved if she didn't have asthma and had a different mother.

    She would be on her inhaler for 5 or 10 minutes or so following any competitive programs I ever saw live, including her 1991 US Nats LP.

    What an idiot she was to take up smoking, considering her asthma, too, for that matter.
     
  21. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    From what I remember, 3-3 combinations weren't seen as the be all, end all until '92. When skaters did them in the late 80s, it wasn't seen as a knockout punch. I think it was more important to show 5 or 6 triples.

    It wasn't until Yama had to go up against Harding and Ito with their triple axels that the 3-3 was viewed as a big weapon.
     
  22. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    Not so sure about that. In 88 Debi Thomas' 3t/3t combo was viewed as the possible difference between her and Katarina if both skated clean. At that point the technical mark was the tie-breaker in the LP (BTW, one of the worse things the ISU could have ever done was to change that rule which they did at the 88 Congress).
     
  23. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    You mean 5 or 6 total triples, usually with 2 of them being toe loops and 2 being salchows? Because that was pretty much the norm for the good jumpers in the 1980s.

    Skaters who could do 5 or 6 different triples were exceptional jumpers in the 1980s. I'd guess there were only 5 or 6 ladies total who were capable of doing them all by the end of figures.
     
  24. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I just remember Peggy Fleming describing the 3t3t as "easier" than other 3-3 combos. That was all that was said about it in the Nationals broadcast during Debi's skate.

    It certainly wasn't treated by commentators as anything approaching the technical difficulty of a 3a.
     
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Debi if she had skated cleanly would have had 5 triples, a triple-triple, and a triple loop vs Witt 4 triples, no triple-triple, and no triple loop. I think that is a significant difference and if Thomas had skated cleanly along with her improved artistry would have allowed her to win whereas in the past she could never win vs a clean Witt.
     
  26. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Christopher Bowman's spiffy 3f3t was considered of less value by far than a 3a2t. Not so with the version of COP we have had till this year.

    One reason the 3t on the end of a combo was devalued was the best jumpers routinely met the need to do a combo in the SP when either , "one of which will be a 2f" or "one of which will be a 2lz" in the 1980's, was to do a 2lz3t or a 2f3t. The best jumpers, including Witt, Zayak, Biellmann, Ito and Thomas were all able to tack a 3t onto a double jump. Others probably could too. Those are just the ones I remember. Then when the requirement was to do a 2t in combination, they got extra points for 2t3t rather than 3t2t (unlike COP). The most interesting thing was how to handle a 2lp. Ito did a 2lp3lp at least once, I think.
     
  27. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    2 flip was the required jump in the combination in 1979 and 1982, but the only ladies attempting 2 flip - 3 toe were Elaine Zayak, Katarina Witt and Sanda Dubravcic.

    They then alternated between 2 loop and 2 toe after that, but I think only Midori Ito, Debi Thomas, and perhaps Simone Koch and Claudia Leistner were attempting double-triple combinations consistently.

    The men attempted 2-3 combinations more often until someone like Orser came along and were doing 3 lutz/3 axel combinations consistently
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Actually, Peggy said that when Michelle Kwan was doing 3T-3T. When Debi was attempting 3T-3T, it was the only type of 3-3 ever landed by a female, that female being Midori Ito at age 11 and only 18 months after a man first landed it :p
     
  29. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Oddly enough, didn't Nancy Kerrigan land the first 3t3t by a lady in competition when she was a junior? I seem to remember that, but I could be misremembering?
     
  30. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Really? She wasn't even landing 3toe3toes in the early stage of her SENIOR career.

    So this means Midori Ito wasn't the first lady ever to land a 3toe3toe in 1984?