Why second jump in combination?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by tkaug, Nov 14, 2011.

  1. tkaug

    tkaug Member

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    For repeated triples and quads, we've seen some skaters make the second one in combination and I don't understand why they choose to do that.

    For example, some skaters do 3A then 3A+2T.
    That way, if you miss on the second 3A(step out or fall, etc...) and fail to put 2T, you will lose a base valut of 2T and 20% of the base value of 3A for not making it in combination(3A, 3A+SEQ).

    This may cause you to make another individual jump in combination in order to make up the mistake, then that jump combination will be counted as a 4th combination jump element.

    If you plan to make the first 3A in combination(3A+2T, 3A), you will have a chance to make the second 3A in combination in case you miss it, but if you plan to make the second one FROM THE BEGINNING(3A, 3A+2T), you can not make it up and lose a lot of points.

    If you do the secont one in the last half of the program, you will get some extra point, but the difference is not big(only 0.13 if you only put +2T). Unless you're really confident in landing both, I don't think it's worth risking to do.
     
  2. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I agree, and that's why I think Nagasu is smart to get all the combinations out of the way in her opening 3 jumping passes. That way you don't need to think COP throughout the whole skate.

    I think it is extremely risky to get the 3 jump combo too late / last, like Ando. But it did work to her advantage at Worlds last season because she ultimately won by the narrowest of margins only and every little bit of point counts.
     
  3. tkaug

    tkaug Member

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    Yes, I know it probably makes no difference in something like PCS to do all 3 combinations for the first 3 jumping passes, but I wish she would do just 1 of them in the later of the program. Seeing all of them in the first 3 jumping passes is not so exciting to watch.

    On the other hand, why does she do 3Lo, 3Lz+2T in the short, instead of 3Lz+2T, 3Lo? She did miss on 3Lz and failed to make it in combination at Skate Canada, didn't she?
     
  4. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Mirai attempts all 3 combos first because the 2axel3toe is the big combo and she needs to do it with fresh legs, and the lutz and loop combos allow her to repeat the jumps later. If she attempts either the lutz or loop combo later, it would be exactly like what you said in your first post (taking a risk of turning the 2nd triple into a SEQ for little bonus points). :lol: Ashley Wagner has that layout - flip combo and 2axel3toe combo first, and then loop combo in the 2nd half and on the 2nd loop.

    I think Mirai's current sp layout is the way it is because of choreographic purpose. I.e. if she is to do the lutz combo first, she will need to generate a lot more speed and reach the end of the rink instead of just the middle and will miss the timing of the jump to the music. Either that, or perhaps she just wants to do her better jump first and get some confidence (the way Sarah Hughes always did the 2axel first).
     
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    This is usually the skaters hardest jump I think and they want to get it out there and if they succeed they will have the confidence to do it again and add a combo to it. Chan in 2011 did a solo quad and then a quad triple.
     
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It's a gamble but every tenth of a point counts.
     
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    It's a lot easier to concentrate on the jump alone vs. in combo. I guess that's why some skaters choose to do that. Concentrate on the first to be clean and get +GOE, then, the 2nd one in combo, when the pressure is less important. JMO.
     
  8. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

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    This isn't new to CoP. Even in the 6.0 days a lot of skaters would do their combos first and then the rest of the program while only a few skaters preferred to do an easy jump first as a confidence booster and/or to spread the combos out.
     
  9. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    5Ali3 had a long post on this topic in the US ladies thread.

    There are a couple of different considerations, as have been mentioned here as well as in that post. Likelihood of success vs. potential bonus points, what fits the music or the sense of balance in the program construction, what the skater is comfortable with in terms of stamina and mental focus, etc.

    I guess each skater needs to figure out what works best for her or him. If they're consistently not getting the success they hope for with the repeated jumps and are losing points to unintended sequence penalties, they might want to rethink their strategy. But the same strategy might not be best for every skater.
     
  10. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Do you think judges are possibly (subconsciously) rewarding skaters who place all their combinations late in the program with higher component scores (justified or not)?

    There's been a trend of singles skaters who are placing all three of their sequences/combinations in the 2nd half of the program, not mention placing as many as 5 jump elements in the 2nd half.

    One would like to think that after enough experience under CoP, the singles skaters do know (in most possible scenarios) when they can or cannot change up the elements in their program to re-insert a combination where allowable.
     
  11. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

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    And hope you nvr forget the choreograph.

    Jumps alone are important but jumps with music, notes and choreograph planned before and after are more important than mere jumps. ;)
     
    numbers123 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. ChibiChibi

    ChibiChibi Active Member

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    I thought Mirai does 2A-2T, not 2A-3T. She repeats 3Lz and 3L, so she can't do 2A-3T since she does a solo 3T later in the program. You can only repeat two triple jumps, right?

    I just realized Mirai only does three kinds of triple jumps...and she got edge calls on her 3Lz. Hmmmm it's kind of underwhelming...IMHO
     
  13. tkaug

    tkaug Member

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    The worst case for this thread was Daisuke Takahashi's free skating for 2008 Worlds.

    He had 2 4Ts and 3As in the program, making the 2nd one in combination for both(*1) and he missed on the 2nd ones(*2).
    He put +2T on 3Lz and that was recognized as a 4th combination jumps, which dropped him out of the podium.
    If he had made the first 4T and 3A in combination(*3), he could possibly have got a silver medal.

    (*1)planned: 4T, 4T+2T, 3A, 3A+2T+2Lox, 3F+3Tx, 3Sx, 3Lox, 3Lzx = 65.63

    (*2)actual: 4T, 4T<+SEQ, 3A, 3A+SEQx, 3F+3Tx, 3Sx, 3Lox, 3Lz*+2T* = 47.20

    (*3)suggestion: 4T+2T, 4T<, 3A+2T+2Lo, 3Ax, 3F+3Tx, 3Sx, 3Lox, 3Lzx = 60.35
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2011
  14. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Actually going by her planned content in the last 2 seasons, I think the axel combination is meant to be a 2/3, and she only replaced the flip with the toe in her last 2 GPs BECAUSE she missed the 2/3 and her flip was less consistent.
     
  15. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

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    Yup, like Marco said. the 2A-2T is supposed to be where the 3T is. That makes the solo 3T her 3F (which is being worked on).
     
  16. ChibiChibi

    ChibiChibi Active Member

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    Oh I see.. Thank you for the explanation!
     
  17. OKAERINKO

    OKAERINKO New Member

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    This is the quetion I want to ask for a long time.
    Many skater plan 3A+2T after 3A,even if both of them in the first half of the program(which means no scoring benefit by bothering to do that).

    I don't get explanations someone gives above.I don't think doing +2Tcombo affects fitness to music structure much.(I also feel many skaters don't pay attention to express music to such a extent)
    And pressure may rise when you have to succeed in doing combo otherwise you lose many point(3A+SEQ and can't recover).
     
  18. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    One possible explanation might be that the skater is aiming for highest possible GOE (+2 or better) on the solo 3A by planning to do it at top speed with a difficult entry and/or exit, etc., which is most likely to succeed early in the program on fresh legs.

    If the skater can't expect that kind of GOE on the combination, as long as he can land it cleanly and not get negative GOE, putting it later won't lose him much.
     
  19. Skatingfan4ever

    Skatingfan4ever New Member

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    I think it's a huge gamble, if you mess up on triple jump, you get deduction bceause the jump combo wasn't completed. Plus, doing the jump in the begining of the program is a better idea because the skater is on fresher legs, if the skater does it in the middle or at the end of the program, it usually doesn't work out.
     
  20. tkaug

    tkaug Member

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    At Nationals, Ross Miner had 2 3As in the beginning of his free and planned the second one with a 2T, then fell on the second one. He lost 3.0 points in the base value there(3A+2T turnning into 3A+SEQ).
    What's the point of choosing to do this especially when the second one is not even in the second half of the program? I'm so frustrated to see skaters do this and miss on the second one.
     
  21. julianaqtpi

    julianaqtpi New Member

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    As a skater, I can say that its better to have your combinations in the beginning, so you can have a chance to make them up. I fell on the 2S of a 2S-2Lo, and it was my 1st jump, so I added the 2Lo onto the end of my 2F (I was going to do it after a 2Lz, but I two footed that and didnt have speed for the 2Lo.). It annoys me when skaters plan combinations without a chance to make it up. The exception is short programs, where you only have 3 jumps (axel, 2 jump combo, jump out of footwork), but even that, my coaches set me up so both jumps are out of footwork so if I fall on the first jump of the combo it can just be my solo jump, and then add the combo onto the intended solo jump. Again, it annoys me when these international competitors don't do that, there are quite a few times when that could have changed the placements.
     
  22. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

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    If a skater can jump both clockwise and counter-clockwise, he/she can make the 2nd jump of a combo something other than a loop or toe loop. As far as I know, this has not actually been done.
     
  23. tkaug

    tkaug Member

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    It's only the case when it is triples or quads that the repeated jump turns into a +SEQ by not making either of them in combination. In double jumps, it doesn't matter which jumps you make in combination.
     
  24. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    That's true for juniors and seniors, but in the US there are limits on repeats of double jumps at the lower IJS levels, and on repeats of single jumps at the nonqualifying levels.
     
  25. julianaqtpi

    julianaqtpi New Member

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    That instance where I added the double loop to the end of another jump was in Pre-Juvenile, so 6.0 scoring system. I don't know if they would have penalized that in IJS or not, but I don't plan on doing that because the Planned Program Content Sheet gives it away, and my coaches told me not to do that with IJS.

    Also, in regards to the overall topic, sometimes the skater wants to start off stronger with a really good jump, and then later have the jump in combination. My freeskate program starts off with just a plain double salchow now, and then a bit later I have a double salchow-double toeloop-double loop sequence, because I don't want to fall on my first jump.
     
  26. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    If the skater is still landing on an outside edge, the choice is still limited. Here is the only scenario I can think of,

    A skater does the first jump clock-wise, landing on the outside edge of her left foot. Then she does a lutz as the second jump, rotating counter-clockwise.

    It's possible, but given the difficulty of lutz, they would not like this path. Besides you can try a salchow or flip as the last jump when you insert a half-loop in between as a 3-jump combination.
     
  27. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

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    Armin would do it :D

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6I9ILJacVkw
     
  28. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    I've seen a former elite skater do 1Z-1Z combo, based on how difficult it looked to get the second jump off (this person can normally do a great 2Z and a decent 3Z), even someone who can do both triples would probably not bother with it in an elite competition. It isn't worth the risk. (You'd think Rohene Ward could have pulled it off, at least a 3Z-2Z. He put all kinds of unique stuff in his programs.)

    Also: LOVE Armin's video!

    ETA: Here is a video on youtube of a 1Z-1Z. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5A6f-956Ug
     
  29. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

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    I think one reason for skaters to do the combo as a 2nd jump might just be that they feel the first one is not good enough to go for a combo, e.g. if the landing is slightly wobbly. So the skater will hope that the 2nd jump is better and that he can add the combo-jump more secure then.