Why are best ever debates only Kim vs Kwan wars

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Gabybackhand, May 7, 2013.

  1. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    It seems best ever debates on this forum come down to just Kim vs Kwan and fans of each picking apart the opposing skater. This seems silly to me. Why arent people like Witt, Henie, Ito, Lynn, and some of the other serious candidates discussed.
     
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  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Because Kim and Kwan were the dominate ladies skaters of the Internet era.
     
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  3. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    I find it funny that there is a debate. I mean Yuna is clearly the better skater.
     
  4. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I find you funny.
     
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  5. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Real good question. I'm usually up for a well thought out poll, but those thinly veiled salutes to Kim Yu Na are just embarrassing. Her die hard fans (and Kwan's) need to get a clue - not everyone thinks your beloved is All That, and no amount of bogus FSU polls is going to prove anything.
     
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  6. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

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    I guess, but I would think true fans of figure skating, who I expect are the ones who participate in a sophisticated internet forum such as this, would appreciate the many number of great skaters before them. Kim and Kwan might be the 2 best ever, but I dont think they are way ahead of everyone else in history the way Woods and Nicklaus are, or the way Phelps and Spitz are to exclude dicussions of the others. They arent even the 2 with the best careers or achievements. All of Witt, Henie, Heiss, Fleming, Szabo, Dijkstra, have had better careers with higher achievements than both Kim and Kwan, unless Kim wins her 2nd OGM, and even then maybe more than her still. Hamill and Yamaguchi too if you add pro careers.
     
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    So it's all about hardware?

    Your problem is that you're equating with not being ranked no. 1 as not appreciating a skater. You're also ignoring many other posters who have listed many other skaters other than Kim and Kwan as number 1. When people do subjective measurements as who is the greatest, you're not going to have a clear winner. You may get a consensus, but that doesn't satisfy everyone's idea on how one can accurately measure these sorts of rankings.

    The truth is that there is no such thing as a greatest ever. However, since people have it in their head that there must be a hierarchy to things, they have to rank a certain skater as being the best because somehow that would legitimize their own feeling as which skater is the best.
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2013
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Because it is just assumed that everybody should know Cecilia Colledge is the most innovative skater ever ...
     
  9. Skater91

    Skater91 New Member

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    Yeah there shouldn't even be a debate, Yes Kwan has won more World titles but Kim is clearly a better skater than Kwan and Kim has won Olympics!
     
  10. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

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    haha ppl "complain" about the same polls being rehashed but then the complaint threads themselves turn into the exact same thing, perpetuating an endless cycle of wank
     
    Last edited: May 7, 2013
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  11. falling_dance

    falling_dance The Scarlet Unlettered

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    Greatest Man: Snoopy (I hate it when even his membership of this category is questioned.)
    Greatest Lady: Bibi Dahl (The sentimental Winston fans are wrong.)
    Greatest Pair: McElroy/Michaels (Iron Lotus > Pamchenko any day of the week.)
    Greatest Dancers: Torvill/Dean

    There. It's settled now. Back to bed, everyone, even if it's midday where you live.
     
  12. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

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    :rofl:

    Snoopy was a fabulous skater.
     
  13. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    I guess here are some fake kimbots...lol
     
  14. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    Once in a great while you get the perfect answer to a thread question in the first post. In a nutshell that is exactly it. I mean it's not going to stop the 20 page pile-up, or the anger management issues, but I just thought that I would point this out..
     
  15. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Mwhahahaa... <insert Hallelujah music>. Oh yes I too was anticipate more of the worthy sophisticated discussion when I paid my subscription to join the FSU all these years ago, where the 'true' fan of the sport can seriously debate the merit of Henie vs Lynn, Witt vs Ito, Chan vs Browning, Lambiel Vs Buttle Vs Cranston, but I too remain disappointed.

    On the other hand I do find the debate of TRex vs Velociraptor @ the Olympics truly compelling and far worthy of the FSU Trash can. Personally this Yunabot still think Yuna Kim will have won if Dinosaur had lived, since the judges are still likely to be human. (Only humanbeings can come up with something as convoluted as this tragic system known as the COP.) Or if they are not, I strongly think the more sophisticated Dinosaur would have picked something that looks most delicious and more of a hunt challenge being the fastest, powerful, deadly accurate and unpredictable as Yuna Kim.

    On a more serious note. If the Dinosaur decide to eat them all, I bet Yuna would be the last one standing/surviving with her sharp blades. Carolina is fast, but she trips far too easily - and the nosebleeds would be a dead give away. Mao may have the best positions but her fab footworks is a bit useless against a Dinasaur's swiping action. Michelle may make them cry, and even sob with emotions with her beautiful skating, but Dinasaur are ultimately cold blooded so they just don't care when they are hungry and they want All American. Witt's Carmen will certainly bring out the red blood boil in their night vision more and get them even more excited... the list goes on. (Although Ito might scare them with her spectacular height jumps, and being a pint size, they may very well leave her alone just for the novelty, she is just a marvelous sight really and far too cute.)

    My advice. Time to check out Golden Skate .com :p Life is all about balance after all.
     
  16. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

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    Not too late to start one!:saint:
    Where are their (Witt, Henie, Ito, Lynn +++ ) fans?
     
  17. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    Figure skating only became popular when Harding hired her friends to try and kill Kerrigan. Since that time the best skaters have been Kim and Kwan, thus they have the most support as possible best ever. Ito, Lynn, Yamaguchi, Fleming, Hamill, and whoever else was before Tonya Harding began the sport as someone more than a little sideshow a few people payed attention to.
     
  18. RickInSanJose

    RickInSanJose New Member

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    Wouldn't Shane Stant have gone for a head blow had the objective been to terminate Nancy with extreme prejudice?
     
  19. DimaToe

    DimaToe Well-Known Member

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    I'm really glad that every time someone on here used the word "best" a puppy isn't killed because it seems like some version of this thread it around in the trash can Every.Single.DAY. :wall:

    There will always be skaters who have superior skating skills to others, some that are better spinners, ones that delivered when it mattered, etc. Why can't we accept that there have been so many incredible skaters this sport has had, instead of having to find which one we find to be superior to every other skater that has ever existed and then trying to shove our opinion down everybody else's throat? We each have skaters that we consider the "best" and there is nothing wrong with that. What gets me are the endless threads about it and the repetitive arguments...I'm aware that this is the trash can but it really has been getting bad lately. Those were my two cents. You may know continue the Kim V. Kwan argument #14259604 :p
     
  20. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    The various Tonya Harding books mention the men had discussed killing Kerrigan but decided against it eventually. As Harding oversaw the whole plan (yeah lets be real here, she did) she must have been in on the idea of killing her too.
     
  21. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    :lol: so true!! :)
     
  22. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    THIS. ALL OF THIS.

    I swear, it's getting beyond ridiculous :wall:. It kills me that there have been this many Skater A vs. Kim, Kim vs. Kwan or Who's the best polls and we're only a few weeks removed from the end of the season. I realize it's the off-season and topics of discussion are limited at best but someone can surely come up with something better than another best ever poll...right?

    Whatever. Back to Off the Beaten Track I go...
     
  23. ehdtkqorl123

    ehdtkqorl123 New Member

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    Look at the user id of those who always post a poll about the "best" female skater.
     
  24. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    :blah:

    The OP obviously joined FSU after our fiercest Henie and Colledge ubers died out. :(
     
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  25. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    The title "best skater" threads, and kimvsando and kim vs 00 threads were made by andofanatic many times.

    And most recently, Maofan7 made "kim would be best skater when she hit 2 OGM in sochi?"

    And Osmond vs kim thread was made by canadian figureskating fan.

    And Sotnikova vs kim thread was made by sotnikova's bot.

    Let Yuna alone...
     
    Last edited: May 8, 2013
  26. Jenny

    Jenny From the Bloc

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    Because you only joined FSU last year, and therefore missed similar epic debates re Kwan vs Lipinski, Kwan vs Slutskaya, Kwan vs Hughes, Kwan vs Cohen etc etc

    I think that's inaccurate. Figure skating has always been popular, in the US and Canada for sure, and I think in Britain and Russia as well as other regions with champion skaters. Lynn, Fleming and Hamill were household names long before the internet, and in Canada you can trace it right back to Barbara Ann Scott - before most people even had televisions. Outside of ladies, there were many epic rivalries, notably Boitano and Orser in the 1980s.

    Figure skating may never have been or will be as big as major league sports or Nascar, but it's always enjoyed a following, along with extensive coverage of competitions and prime time tv specials going back to the days when most only had access to about a dozen tv channels, so in other words, it had its fair share of voice in the media. And it's always been one of the marquee events of the Winter Olympics.

    Tonya vs Nancy didn't make skating popular - it simply boosted interest beyond the traditional fanbase at a time when the media universe - ie opportunities for coverage - were expanding rapidly. In addition, it happened during the unusual period when the Winter Olympics were held just two years apart, so even the "4-year fans" were more active that usual. Capitalizing on that heightened interest, a lot of players jumped on the bandwagon - promoters, agents, tour companies, tv producers, etc. Then post SLC scandal, many worried about skating losing popularity - but IMO, it was simply returning to normal, back to pre-1994. In the interim, the media universe as exploded, so while figure skating is still popular, it now competes for share of voice in a much bigger arena.

    And, with the internet, fans can now participate directly in the debates and thus the rise of more rivalries and debate, instead of just whatever ABC, CBC and the like wanted to sell us.
     
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  27. leesaleesa

    leesaleesa Active Member

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    I am personally shocked when the best ever polls don't include Ludmila Neledina. She had a triple axel, and the most gorgeous spins ever.
     
  28. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Exactly.

    Many of us didn't follow Witt, Henie, Heiss, Fleming, Szabo, Dijkstra, Hamill, and Yamaguchi during their heydays. For some people it's hard to be arsed to get that interested in skaters you've only seen on youtube, no matter how awesome. I admit, I do - I rank Witt ahead of Kwan or Kim, and I have passionate opinions on dance and pairs events that happened well before I started watching. Not everyone is like this, though, and following in detail online gives you a sense of context you don't have when watching things from the past, because you're seeing it unfold, you're seeing the programs develop, you're seeing the skater go from unknown to world junior champion to world podium to world champion to two time world champion, etc. I remember the first postings of home videos of Yu Na from Korean national and local competitions, ironically by the poster named michelle k, as a skater to watch once she entered the junior ranks! This is totally different than reading a wikipedia entry that says Herma Szabo won an Olympics and 7 World titles including two in pairs (which is really cool).

    I consider Witt very innovative. She brought a more modern, musically engaging, and theatrical aesthetic as far as I can see, but that could easily go unnoticed by fans who started watching after this style became a mainstay. She was also technically strong in some areas, like landing the first triple flip, but if you weren't actually following that when it happened you're more likely to say "whatever, she only did four triples in 88." If Kwan or Kim had landed a jumping "first" (especially Kim) it would have been all over the internet, first the articles about her attempting it, the debates on here of will she land it and will others now need it, youtubes of the attempts, tweets from the competition practices, live streaming of the event, analysis of the protocol, debate about how many points it should be worth, discussion of whether it's too much of a risk... and that would remain in peoples' minds even if they rarely or never did that jump again.

    It's natural that these discussions tend towards the recent, and not only in figure skating. The internet really pushes it to the top. It's the difference between seeing the skater 2-3 times a year at Nats/Euros/Olys/Worlds to seeing all these events plus Grand Prix, B events, and cheesefests live or nearly live with all of the anticipation and quarterbacking that entails. It just makes every little thing that happens now seem so important.


    I agree with you, that these past skaters deserve their due, I'm just not surprised that they aren't discussed as much. I think FSU does a fairly good job, really... floskate and Maofan7, in particular, post a lot of informative stuff.
     
  29. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    I believe FSU originated with the type-writer. :drama:
     
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  30. lulu

    lulu New Member

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    Pony Express ;)