Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Mar 17, 2011.
It's interesting that three Olympic gold medalists ('94, '98, '02) are the zero vote-getters.
Actually, Yamaguchi ('92) has nine votes, while Baiul ('94) has zero.
Sorry--but you knew what I mean, didn't you?
Probably because this poll wasn't a multiple choice poll. And....
judgejudy is right. As a one option poll, most (myself included) ended up choosing Michelle anyway. Even in a multiple choice poll Michelle would probably have ended up with the same number of votes while some who weren't chosen might have picked up a few more.
It is interesting that Sasha isn't regarded by some as being more successful than she is. For someone who wasn't a pressure skater, Sasha still managed to do pretty well for herself. I can only imagine how much better she would have done without all the falls and missed/doubled jumps. I did say I felt that Sasha was a better skater in general than Katarina. IMO Katarina depended not only on the mistakes of others but sometimes she also rested on the sexpot image she had.
The 3toes and 3sals done by Kat were of high quality though. She wasn't going to get a triple lutz, flip or consistent loop after 84, so she did the best with what she was capable of. I also think that during her eligible years it was only in 88 that she tried to use her sexpot image to sale her programs.
I voted Kwan, in terms of number of times on the podium. I wasn't sure what criteria to use. In terms of artistry, it's a more difficult question. I enjoy watching Kwan as much as I enjoy watching skaters like Cohen, Yu na, Arakawa and Yamaguchi in their own different ways. Using that criterium it's more difficult to vote.
Witt had excellent presentation, of course she never was the best technically, but as a competitor she was tough. That's as important as having the best technical and artistical abilities. I don't like all her decisions in life, but it's her own life and she has the right to live it as she wants to, just like we're all entitled to our own life as we think better for ourselves. But wether you like her or not, she was a remarkable personality both on the ice and off the ice.
I honestly think it's about expectations. Someone like Kerrigan is a big star partly because she did so much better than expected. Someone like Cohen, who has just as impressive a career, falls victim to the overhype. Perhaps had she not been built up as "possibly the greatest skater of all time", people could appreciate more what she did accomplish.
I agree with berthesghost. Sasha and her team tried to build her up as the greatest skater of all time, or atleast potentially so. That is the reason her otherwise very fine career is treated as a dissapointment by many. And even looking aside the sometimes absurd overhype she didnt do any of the things she was expected to do.
She was expected to dethrone Kwan at Nationals. She never did.
She was expected to win Worlds. She never did.
She was expected to finally do a great long program at the Olympics, even if she didnt win. She didnt.
She was expected to at some point atleast do a clean long program in a major event. She never did.
All the hype yet in major events in her prime she regularly lost or was outskated by Fumie Suguri.
Don't forget the quad hype. She never landed it in competition. And all the hype at the 2000 Jr Worlds where she did not even land on the podium.
I just think Sasha was just not someone who could deliver under pressure. The fact that she could not win Worlds in 2006 is mind blowing.
It's still impressive to have an Olympic silver medal and world medals. Better than nothing. Many skaters would love to even have one Olympic medal of any material.
If Yuna wins a couple more world titles and another Olympics she will be the greatest female skater in the history of the sport. As of now she is "one of the greatest" along with Witt and Kwan. (This of course is not counting Fleming or Henie who came before.)
If skating were just about spinning, then Lucinda Ruh would take the "greatest ever" title hands down. Watching her spin was mesmerizing, the best I've ever seen bar none! Watch and be amazed while listening to Dick Button flip out with excitement:
Better yet, watch this video and the rotational speed she achieves in her final spin, she is a BLUR, it is absolutely mind bending!!!
To be great you have to be revolutionary. You caused the sport to change, because you participated in it. I don't see that with Yuna. Maybe it will come but for now, not yet. Just collecting medals will not make one great.
I kind of agree, but it depends on what qualifies as a "revolution". Which skaters do you think "revolutionized" the sport and why? The one skater I can think of who clearly "revolutionized" skating was Dick Button, who else? Does just introducing a new jump qualify as a revolution? I don't think so. I don't think a skater needs to change the sport in some fundamental way (which is what the term "revolution" normally means) to be great. It seems to me that to be "great" a skater needs to both move the sport to a new level and be a successful competitor too. Dick Button clearly was both.
Too me, Yuna has moved women's skating to a new level with her technical abilities (speed, huge jumps, precision) and aesthetics (musicality and choreography), she is pushing the rest of the field to catch up with her. Michelle Kwan and Kristi Yamaguchi seem to agree. That said, people are moved by different metrics, and clearly some people may not agree.
I don't think she has moved ladies skating to new level in terms of aesthetics. In fact, I don't think anyone has managed to do that since Michelle Kwan.
for me, Midori definitely revolutionized Ladies skating. Also the only skater to really got me emotional watching her skate was Michelle Kwan. She really is the only skater who brought tears to my eyes. I never was a huge fan of her. Yuna is great at 3lutz/3toe and 3 flip but she never touched me with her programs. I thik she can be the greatest of all time but I don't think she is there yet. I think Michelle was a more complete jumper than Yuna because she landed so many programs without mistakes. She had many clean 7 triple programs. Artistically I think Yuna can improve so much. She can work on extentions and turning out her foot. I just think her positions on her foot is awkward even when just skating around or doing a step sequence or doing a spin. If you watch someone like Kwan or Yuka Sato, the way Yuna(sometimes Asada too) moves her feet are sometimes awkward to me. Is it just me?
YuNa amalgamated aestics and athleticism into one, which is a new level that didn't exist in ladies skating before her.
Artistry in skating is not about the feet.
She could also work on her musicality too.
I confess that I don't quite understand this comment. If what is meant by musicality is clarity of attack and articulation, fluidity, and consonance of movement with the music's beat, emphasis, and mood (which have their analogies with playing a musical instrument, like the piano or violin), then Yuna's musicality is now among the best, and has been since the 2009 season beginning with Danse Macabre.
These clips of her recent practice, with Giselle music cuts added by the viewers (which may have been posted elsewhere, but which I include as illustration) demonstrate what I'm talking about:
Given the somewhat gnomic brevity of your comment , it's possible that you have some specific things in mind, and I'm just not getting what it is that your getting at. If you'd care to expand on it, I'd be interested in knowing what you're trying to say.
I voted Yu-Na! She is AMAZING SKATER.
Again, even the tiniest bit of explanation along with the declarative statement would really help people like me in both comprehension and discussion. Otherwise, I feel like a yeshiva student struggling with his exegesis.
In my view, what causes a Michelle Kwan to say that Yuna has "changed the face of figure skating" is that she is perhaps the first (but not, I think the last) ladies skater to have successfully juggled the arcane COP equation such that the outcome approaches maximization of the current physical/technical potential (as codified in the technical score) without sacrificing a truly high artistic level.
IMO, attempting to strain out and isolate overall artistic quality (as opposed to comparison of individual elements or skills, which haven't changed) specifically to make valuative comparisons with skaters who performed under different conceptual regimes (eg 6.0) is difficult at best, and wildly misleading at worst.
It would be akin to taking two athletes, putting 20 pound weights on the legs of one while hanging them to the wrists of the other. Relatively speaking, the former won't run as fast, and the latter wouldn't make a good boxer. In my view, it is equally erroneous to say, on the one hand, that Michelle didn't have it in her to jump great 3-3s as it is to say that Yuna's artistic achievements cannot at least be compared to Michelle's if, in some figure skating heaven, we could see both at their peaks and training and performing under the same parameters.
Excellently said! That was what I was trying to say but you said it much better, thank you.
Wow at how much Yuna's votes shot up overnight!
It's a declarative statement out of personal opinion, which I don't think I need to elaborate on. And eloquence doesn't necessarily erase subjectivity, since all posts here are essentially opinions.
One of the most repeated compliments on Yuna is her musicality.
I would never dispute your right to post whatever pleases you, madame .
But if all is subjective, and simple declaration the norm, wouldn't posts merely be an exercise in talking to (and about) ourselves?
Yes. Yun could definitely work more on her interpretation and feeling of the music. Yuna's Olympic LP was a snooze. Her Schez was pleasant but nothing memorable, inspite of the praise that Sandra Bezic heaped on it; Not sure what Sandra was smoking.
Yuna has some nice programs in the past. I liked her Bond SP. But I think her nice programs are just that: very nice, very pleasant to watch, but nothing that made me stand up and go "WoW!".
Kim hasn't dominated skating like Kwan did in her heydey or for nearly as long. Plus Kwan could be counted to skate clean in almost every event she was in. Kim has skated clean once i believe at the Olympics but otherwise she's not nearly as consistent as Michelle was.
To me, a great skater is simply a skater I enjoy watching over and over without getting bored. No completely new type of jump for instance Elvis Stojko would have been able to come up with would have made me fall in love with his skating and call it great skating.
Love Michelle !!
Everybody has his/her taste. Fortunately, there are many skating fans who were extremely enthusiastic with YuNa's performances.
Kwan skated in the era when skating clean was most important to winning and YuNa skates in the era when obtaining points is most important to winning. Both did what they should do to win. YuNa hasn't skated clean as many times as Kwan did, but Kwan never jumped as high as YuNa does.