Who wins of young ladies guns if all clean

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by dorianhotel, May 1, 2013.

Who wins out of young ladies stars if all go clean in both programs

  1. Gold

    33.9%
  2. Li

    7.9%
  3. Sotnikova

    31.5%
  4. Tuks

    7.1%
  5. Lipnitskaia

    2.4%
  6. Osmond

    17.3%
  1. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Li would never beat Osmond if both skate cleanly. That is crazy IMO. Maybe one could argue she should have a chance, but the way the judges score both it is obvious who would win.

    BTW Li'Kitsu the reason Li has almost no votes even if you feel she would beat a clean Osmond or Tuktamysheva (totally wrong IMO but to each their own) is it is already obvious by Worlds she would have no chance to beat a clean Gold. In the LP of Worlds a flawed Gold with several stumbles beat a totally clean Li. She even beat her in PCS, Gold's weakness. So that already eliminates her in everyones minds (to get the vote it is saying clean so and so would beat clean everyone else on this poll), hence no votes. Atleast Osmond and Tuk. it is more subjective since we have almost never seen their very best against the others at theirs, and we havent seen them skate their best LP and lose to someone on this list.
     
  2. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Limiting my opinion to be relevant as to 2013-14 season:

    1. Gold – I think she has way better flow, speed and jumps among the young ones, and huge room for improvement in performance/presentation.

    2. Sotnikova – IMO she has some tasks at hand in negotiating flow and jump technique. She has good height but poor flow on her jumps, and it would be a huge challenge to improve her skating and at the same time her jumping technique and consistency.

    3. Osmond – I think she has good potential to be a performer. But to be a consistent performer AND a winner, she needs to fix/stabilize her jumps first, and second, to control (mental and goal-oriented) pace and broaden the width of her presentation. She’s exciting, and I hope she is ambitious and hard-working.

    4. Tuktamysheva – She’s a lovely skater, but everything she does looks tiny. IMO the only way for her to be a winner is to be a consistent and convincing performer with pound-per-pound punch in her skating and jumps. Sorry to mention that she has some disadvantage in terms of size/scale, but I think it’s a fact. I do think she can overcome this, but it would take huge commitment and determination. I would love to see her strong next season.

    5. Li – I think she will be a champion at some point in the next quadrennial leading up to PyeongChang. She needs to control her puberty, build up strength and speed, and stay injury-free. She has every quality to be a great performer as she would mature in the years to come.
     
  3. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    This strikes me as funny! How does one control their puberty?!
     
  4. demetriosj

    demetriosj Well-Known Member

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    Don't they all need to stay injury-free to succeed?!
     
  5. Li'Kitsu

    Li'Kitsu Active Member

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    No she didn't, Li was 4th, Gold was 5th in the LP.
     
  6. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    My bad, but it was still close enough that it is evident a clean Li would have no chance at all to beat a clean Gold, so you shouldnt be surprised nobody is voting for her. Worlds LP and how obvious it was a made a clean Gold is certain to beat a clean Li already eliminates her from being considered. The others atleast you havent seen their best against the others much or ever.
     
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Another one : And if she is the best of the group, she will win. :p
     
  8. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    :confused:
    Why??

    I think Osmond has been the most overrated among youngsters. And I think Li zijun has been the most underrated by judges.

    Li zijun has a better presentation than Osmond, regardless of the PCS.
    She was one of the skaters who was praised most in 2013 WC. Even some said they felt she shows performance better than some veteran skaters, and I agree with them.
     
  9. Li'Kitsu

    Li'Kitsu Active Member

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    And I said myself clean Gold would beat clean Li. But clean Gold would beat clean Tuktamysheva and clean Osmond too, so I'm not seeing how the comparison between Gold-Li helps anything with Li-Osmond-Tuktamysheva.

    Agreed. I think Li was always under the radar and a little forgotten between Gold, the russians and then Osmond. And this influences the PCS, that's nothing new. But she got herself some respect at worlds :)
     
  10. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    That clean Gold would beat clean Osmond and clean Tuktamysheva is your opinion, and could well be right, but my point is that wasnt proven the way Li vs Gold is. No event happened that made it obvious if this is the case or not. There are probably some who think that is not the case. Worlds LP proved clean Gold beats clean Li and it isnt even disputable. So Li is already eliminated by that in virtually everyones mind, hence almost no votes, while atleast Osmond and Tuktamysheva havent been proven to not possibly win in an all clean competition amongst these girls, as there isnt an example they did a clean LP and lost (or nearly lost to someone from this list with several mistakes with their own clean LP). Li is the only one on this list who actually went clean and was proven in that instance to have no shot vs someone else on the poll, so it makes sense she has very low votes. That is if your opinion she would beat a clean Osmon and clean Tuktamysheva was even correct, which IMO it definitely isnt, but even if you feel a clean Li is above those, because of what happened between Gold and Li in the LP at Worlds you should still not be surprised her votes are so low.

    BTW Tuktamysheva scored over 130 in her LP at Europeans, so if you think Euro scores are legit (and you must as you keep pumping up Sotnikova based on that), that would also prove a clean Tuktamysheva would beat a clean Li right now.
     
  11. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Diet control and maintaining low body fat – common practices among gymnasts and skaters to delay or mitigate the effects of puberty. Does it sound absurd to you? Same for the associated risk of injury handling puberty and making the adjustments in jumping technique. I mentioned it because Li’s physique looks the most pre-puberty among the listed girls in the poll.

    Well, I had qualified my opinion to be on the 2013-14 season only. :)
     
  12. Amy03

    Amy03 Member

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    I voted for Adelina, only because the judges seem to like her alot, Gold has also shown that she is capable of getting big scores when clean, but my personal favorite out of these six skaters is Li, she just makes me feel like watching performance where the technical and artistic aspect has been given much thought, like Asada she just has a way of blending the technical and artistic side of the performance.
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  13. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    my favorite part from two skaters is different
    Li zijun's performance reminds me young kim, I already her supporter. But her jumps are small..
    Gracie Gold is a very powerful jumper. The quality of her jump is very impressive. However, the performance is not impressive...

    I know both skating idol is kim, I think two skaters have ability of Kim on the other side.
    I think they still have quit a lot possibility of development until Pyeongchang.. Their competition does not seem even started yet..
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2013
  14. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Toss up between Li or Gold. Osmond needs more polish and control, Tuk doesn't have great ice coverage or spins and needs to project out more, Lip has smallish jumps, ugly 2a, and is a bit robotic in-between the jumps, Sot has bad jump technique and despite being high the jumps often seem sloppy and a bit out of control, and despite being very flexible her spin positions are often ugly. So that leaves Li and Gold, both have nice jump technique and good spins/flexibility, Gold has the speed and power and big jumps, but Li has impressive presentation and a lovely balletic style, so they are different, but pretty even I would say, and are the frontrunners of this group when clean.
     
  15. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Li is already 16, her body type is not that different from Mao or Yuna who are several years older. She might be through with most of her growth and just have good genes in terms of maintaining a very slender frame. I know her legs are very long, but some people just simply have long legs. Mao and Yuna did not change much physically from when they were 15 or 16 compared to now, they maybe grew an inch or so and gained a few kg and proportions adjusted slightly to become more woman like, but the overall appearance and build stayed very similar. Plus Li has been growing a lot the past few seasons so I don't think the situation is comparable to someone like Mirai or Caroline who were mostly so tiny as young teenagers because they had not grown yet rather than having particularly slight builds. Li can work on building up her speed and power by focusing on attention on those aspects, muscle weight gain might not even be necessary, I mean, Yuna is as fast and powerful a skater as they come and she's really thin.
     
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    This really is tough!

    Gold - best in terms of jumps, jump combos, speed, and spins, but lags Sotnikova, Li, Lipnitskaya and Osmond in terms of presentation
    Sotnikova - probably the best packaged but suffers from UR's and instability
    Tuk - 2nd best in terms of jumps and jump combos but lags behind all of Gold, Sotnikova, Osmond, and Li in presentation
    Osmond - 3rd best in terms of jumps and jump combos but next to Sotnikova ahead of Tuk, Gold and Li in terms of presentation
    Li - well packaged, great poise, but lags behind all of the above in terms of sheer power and speed
    Lipnitskaya - I think she is behind all of the above right now
     
  17. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    It means Li's artistry is weaker than Osmond, Sot? I disagree..
     
  18. b-man

    b-man Active Member

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    Doesn't look like like Julia is getting much respect in this poll. Adelina and Gracie the first two in the poll, and Julia last. But in Junior worlds in 2012, head to head, Julia 1st, Gracie 2nd, and Adelina 3rd. In grand prix this year, Julia qualifies for final, while Adelina and Gracie do not qualify. Too many people are writing Julia off.
     
  19. Li'Kitsu

    Li'Kitsu Active Member

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    That's because the poll aks who would win if all were clean. Julias better results are because she skated cleaner than the other girls did, not because she outscored them when they were similarily clean.

    Additionally, Julia is the only one of this list left who's still going to face puberty (or who will continue to do so) and she had the least number of senior comps this year. It's even harder to rate her against the rest since she didn't get to go to Euros/4CC and worlds.

    And, IMO, Julia's main strength is her consistency and how driven she is. But her jumps don't have very good quality, her SS are good but nothing more and she really lacks in the musical/artistic department.
     
  20. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    How did everyone skate at that years Junior Worlds though. I dont remember that well, although I thought Gold was clean and still lost to Julia, but Gold has improved alot since then.
     
  21. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Julia was skating better in 2011-2012 compared to this past season though, when she started to deal with puberty and it caused a bunch of injuries. Julia was nearly clean at JW in the FS this season and her score was over 10 points lower to the FS score she received for her program the year before. Her SB this season was only around 115 and last season it was more like 124. Her presentation hasn't gotten worse, but I think because the season before she'd pretty much always hit everything perfectly, her PCS got quite high, then this season when it became more common for her to have mistakes and awkward landings on some jumps, the PCS were not quite at the same level. The whole puberty/growth spurt thing can change the rankings up quite a bit. Li and Osmond also competed at JWin 2012 and were 5th and 10th, but both became a lot more consistent with their jumps this season which is why they had much better results. Sotnikova I really don't think is near the top of this list though, all the other girls on the list have beaten her at least once in the past 2 seasons.
     
  22. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Julia is totally under rated, but then she is going through a weird growing spurt. I wonder how Zijun would have ranked if she skate for USA, Canada or Russia.
     
  23. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I should've been clearer. I meant PCS as a whole, not just artistry. I think Sotnikova and Osmond are superior to Li in the majority of the PCS categories. But, I do think Li is charming and skates with a lot of poise, just needs to grow a little bit.
     
  24. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    Li's lack of power and bigness in things is the only thing that holds her back and it affects both her TES (limits potential GOE) and PCS (skating skills definitely drop and the rest tend to follow suit).
     
  25. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    Alot of the people who are complaining about how low Julia is in this poll are forgetting something. This is an everyone goes clean poll. So just because Julia is last in this doesnt mean people see her likely to come last of this group. Julia, atleast before the growth spurt, was probably by far the most consistent on this whole list, and churned out clean programs like a machine. Skating clean is darn hard, and happens far less times than it doesnt. Julia would be vurnerable to many people in an all clean competition since other than consistency and bendy spins she doesnt really stand out, and she has alot of weakish areas to her skating, but her consistency makes her likely to finish above some on this list, even if all tottally clean she might be last.
     
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I think Julia is totally over-rated. She has some impressive moves, but her skating skills are lacking, and she should work on them before working on flexibility and jumps...IMO, her PCS should be around 5. ;)
     
  27. Autumn_girl

    Autumn_girl Active Member

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    Lipnitskaya is 14. She is younger than any of these girls. Gold or Osmond were nowhere near her level in the same age. Give her some time
     
  28. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course, and I don't blame her. I blame those her scores. Because they give everybody high expectations on her, although she just needs time to develop, to work on her basics. ;)
     
  29. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    I see great potential for Julia (been saying that last year too) if given the right mentoring (some one please save her from excessive Morozov choreography, he is abusing and being reckless with her flexibility while give her little room for interpretation or self realisation) . I think she and Liza are actually quite musical but do not get the right program or the choreography to showcase that aspect of their talent, at an age where the right mentoring are absolutely necessary to refine these talents into skills. Yeah I agree about polishing the Basics, it is all about foundation.

    IMO, they are 2 young skaters were let down by their choreography program these past years. Zijun was blessed with a great FS program this year that were able to showcase her special spark and charm, and if she continues to build up more power, strength and consistency, I see her as the great hope China desperately seeks since Chen Lu and actually ends up a big threat to these girls. Same with Gracie Gold who have the federation power Li sorely lacks.
     
  30. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    3 Questions - can we consider Kanako a 'young gun'? Will she be in the mix in the next Quadrennial? If so, where in the mix?

    She is a couple of graduating classes ahead of all the aforementioned but I still think of her as a NKOTB. Yet, there was a hint in another thread that she was contemplating retiring after next season which I find hard to believe. The JSF would be completely devoid of ladies if she were to retire. They would find some way to motivate her to keep her competing.