Who rates higher all time- Seles or Serena

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by judgejudy27, Jun 28, 2010.

Who rates higher all time- Serena or Seles

  1. Serena

    64.9%
  2. Seles

    35.1%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    This is thread I started on another forum. It is a simple question. Who do you believe rates higher all time tennis history right now- Monica Seles or Serena Williams. I believe Serena Williams personally.
     
  2. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Seles, Seles , Seles...

    I believe Serena will have more grand slams at the end of her career (i guess she already has more slams, 12 to 10), but my heart will never agree that serena is higher in all time list than seles. With Seles's grand slams list we always need to add a what if to it.

    The day she was stabbed was one of the saddest day in sporting history.
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Serena has 12 slams to Seles's 9. I believe without the stabbing Seles would have ended up with 11 or 12, but no Wimbledons. So I believe Serena would already rank higher, plus she has more to achieve still.
     
  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Who knows what Seles could have done, and I have a hard time believing that it would have been so easy for Venus and Serena if they had to deal with a Prime Stefi Graf.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The field in 1999-2005 which Serena won most of her slams against was actually one of the deepest ever. I know the field now is terrible but the field when Serena first dominated was amazing. Serena, Venus, Hingis, Davenport, Henin, Clijsters, Sharapova, Mauresmo, Seles still around too. The field Graf and Seles faced was not exceptional at all. They only had each other and nobody else other than maybe the overachieving Sanchez Vicario and a mid 30s way past her prime Navratilova, and in Graf's case not even Seles for a period of time.
     
  6. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    Seles had 8 grand slams by the age of 19, her form hadn't dipped and she was winning majority of the slams. Between 1991 and 1993 she entered 8 grand slams and winning 7 0f them, she only lost the wimbledon in the heavily rain effected match.

    As for wimbledon, in her prime (before) she only entered wimbledon only twice, once reaching the final and other time reaching the QF. There is nothing to suggest that she wouldn't have won wimbledon. She had the game to win wimbledon, especially she was the hardest hitting lady of that period.
     
  7. Beefcake

    Beefcake Guest

    :wall: Whether that's a joke statement or you're just trying to rile up some folks (raises hand), that's ridiculous. To quote Johnny Mac, "you cannot be serious!"

    Monica had not yet peaked, and had a decade at least ahead of her ... and you believe that she'd win no more than three more Slams ... and no Wimbledon with that serve and shot-making?

    I'd :rofl: but I am, after all these years, still saddened about the stabbing robbing Seles of her GOAT potential, and for that lunatic robbing "us" of the feats she'd have brought us.
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    You are certainly entitled your opinion and I am not going to argue with you. My personal feeling is Seles was never destined for the kind of long term dominance of Navratilova, Graf, Evert, or Court types. Dominating 2 years as a teenager does not equate to long term dominance automatically. One just needs to look at Martina Hingis, Serena Williams, and Tracy Austin for signs of that.

    I personally believe the only period after the stabbing where Seles's career might have been any different was the first 6 months as she would not have just been returning from a long layoff, and even then those first 6 months ended up being her best of her second career with a U.S Open final and Australian Open title. Her failure to win any slam after the 96 Australian Open are quite easy to break down IMO:

    1996- she dealt with shoulder problems all year which hindered her serving and forced her to miss time as well which left her shorter on match play and match toughness.

    1997- first she missed the Australian Open through a fluke accident when she caught a ball wrong and broke a finger. She had trouble with the new tennis sensation Martina Hingis who was a bad matchup for her. This was also the period her dads terminal illness was at its peak, and she was understandably distressed by this and more overweight this year than any other point in her post stabbing career.

    1998 onwards- missed the Australian Open as her fathers condition worsened. Played the French Open soon after her fathers death and found inspiration to make the final, but ran out of it in the final itself where Sanchez Vicario who Seles owned even in her post stabbing career took advantage of an emotionally and physically spent Monica to prevail. After that things began to get better but unfortunately for Seles by this point the competition had gotten alot tougher and more unfavorable for her. The big hitters and agressive women like Davenport, Venus, Serena, Pierce, a late blooming Novotna, and soon a resurgent Graf were all starting to flood the top of the womens ranks and Seles was a bit past her prime already by this point anyway.

    That leaves the period from the 1993 Australian Open-1996 Australian Open. She did win 2 slams already in this period, the 93 and 96 Australian Opens. I dont believe she was going to win 6 straight Australian Opens, and Graf in 94 and Pierce in 95 were absolutely on fire and crushed everyone at those events in a way none of Seles's opponents had before meeting Seles in any of the 4 years she won there. While Seles is normally the top rebound ace player before Hingis emerged, I would think she doesnt win those 2 years and she still wins 4 out of 6 during this stretch as she did anyway. At the French she had a good shot, probably wins 1 or 2 of the 3 from 93-95. Wimbledon her only ever shot was 94 with Graf's early upset and how the draw without Seles panned out, so I would say 0 or 1. U.S Open? Maybe she wins another one here but she has never beaten Graf on a faster court, and there are others like Novotna and Pierce who gave Seles a tough time once they came into their own who were threats these years too. So I would say in total 4 or 5 slams during this time, including the 2 she already won as it is, which brings her to a total of 11 or 12 in my estimation.

    As for Wimbledon there is nothing that evidenced to me Seles had the game to definitely win Wimbledon. IMO she was always an inferior grass court player to even Henin or Mandlikova who have never won Wimbledon, or in Henin's case is yet to but still might. She is an inferior grass court player to Hingis, Novotna, or Davenport, who each won one each. Yeah she made one final at Wimbledon in her prime, but in that she was absolutely humiliated and destroyed by Graf in one of the worst ever beatdowns of a #1 in a major final, so even that isnt exactly a ringing endorsement of her potential to win on grass. And her withdrawal from Wimbledon in 91 where she didnt come up with her injury until a month later and was fined by the WTA was suspicious. Like I said above I think her only real shot was 94 though. I dont see her beating any of Graf, Novotna, Hingis, Davenport, Venus, Serena, on grass, and anyone could take her out on grass on any given day too. In a matchup with Graf on grass she did not have more overall power or game on that surface. Graf had a far stronger serve, and an even stronger forehand. On other surfaces Seles has the stronger backhand and return of serve, but on grass she had great trouble coping with Graf's slice backhand which was very effective on the low skidding grass (just watch a tape of the 92 final), and Seles's return was not as strong on grass as she didnt have the reach with 2 hands to handle the wide slice serves on grass that well. She did not have the athleticsm needed for grass, was not comfortable with her footing, on the bounce. So regardless what was true of her on other surfaces at the time, it certainly was never true of her on grass.

    Of course I feel sympathy for Monica not only going through the stabbing, but losing her father to cancer, and all the injuries she began dealing with. However Serena also had to deal with the tragic and shocking murder of her beloved half sister, and a knee surgery right at the time she was dominating the game.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It is funny how you say "that serve". Do you actually consider Seles to have an outstanding serve? It was certainly a good serve, but never the best. Graf, Serena, Davenport, Venus, Novotna, basically every player that won Wimbledon in recent memory outside of Hingis, has a superior serve to any she ever had. And Seles was not a great shotmaker on grass even in her pre stabbing years at #1, in fact a rather clumsy one when opposed with great opposition.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVFVuhNB240

    Grass was just never her surface. She never attained a level on grass even close to the level she displayed on other surfaces, and this was evidenced in all points of her career. She certainly couldnt compete with Graf on grass, evidenced even before the stabbing while otherwise dominating the game, and in the years immediately after the stabbing she was losing 2nd and 3rd rounds of Wimbledon often. Then by the time she began to reach quarters again there the much bigger hitters like Davenport and Venus were ruling Wimbledon. I dont see any year she could even possibly have won other than maybe 1994 which would have been her best shot by far (the year Martinez won).

    As for having peaked or not that is a matter of opinion. She did return to tennis and had 8 years to improve again and never did, in fact gradually regressed. If this were all related to the stabbing it would make no sense why her best tennis of her second career would have come in the first few events of her comeback, and a bit in middle 1998. I believe with all the injury problems, personal problems (outside of the stabbing), her playing style, and her career tragectory in the years she did return to play, that she probably was someone who did peak as a teenager. There are actually many past champions that also peaked as a teenager who were not stabbed, so it isnt hard to believe Seles herself also did.

    Either way it really doesnt matter. It is unproveable obviously so I compare Seles to Serena by overall achievements, longevity in the game, overall dominance vs their peers, and who I believe reached a higher level of tennis. Seles is a great player, but IMO Serena has surpassed her which just shows the great Serena moving her way up the list of all time greats. I also have watched both women play at their best and I think Serena would win. She has a far superior 1st and 2nd serve- in fact the best in history probably, hits even harder off the ground, moves far better than Seles ever did, is better at the net. Return of serve and mental toughness are a virtual tie. Seles is more consistent off the ground and had slightly better angles, but I think those are her only edges, and the overall package of Serena would just be too powerful, athletic, and all court for Seles if both were at their best, except on clay where I see prime Seles winning more meetings than prime Serena. I think Serena has King, Connolly (another what if case, but an even greater player at the same ages than Seles), Lenglen in her sites now. Once she has eclipsed that group she can set her sites on closing the gap on the big 5 of Graf, Court, Navratilova, Evert, and Wills Moody, though I dont think she will ever quite reach those 5. I do also think the level of tennis Serena played in 2002-2003 before her knee injury was probably the best of any women player in history, including Navratilova or Graf. Not the best as far as her record, that would be Graf in 88-89 or Navratilova in 83-84, but as far as sheer level of play it was the best by a women ever IMO.
     
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2010
  10. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan Searching for Cizeron's Instagram

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    I think part of the problem here is that you seem to forget that she was stabbed by crazy lunatic and it wasn't some injury that forced her out of the game. Further more this wasn't done by some random guy stabbing her (Alexander Popov incident), this was very planned act... and further more he did it on the tennis court. Trauma and psychological effect associated with it is very hard to handle for any grown up individual, let alone a teenager (she was 19 at the time of incident).

    What is more that maniac, Gunther Parche was let of within weeks of the incident, and you had Seles still healing from injury. All these incidents happening in a very short span of time would have made mentally recovering recover from the incident difficult.

    What makes Seles a remarkable person is the dignity with which she handled the stabbing. Expect for refusing to play in Germany, she doesn't go around saying 'what if I wasn't stabbed.. ' (that is for Us fans to say).
     
  11. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

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    The tennis Monica Seles was playing between 1991 - 1993 could be considered the greatest tennis in the history of the sport. She was dominating everyone including Steffi Graf.
     
  12. Buzz

    Buzz Well-Known Member

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    Serena :cheer2:
     
  13. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

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    I couldn't even walk when Monica won her first slam, but my parents have alot of matches from that era on tape; I've watched some of them over and over again. I truly believe that Seles of 91/92 was the best female tennis player EVER. Serena is amazing - an amazing athlete, competitior and champion. But Monica is something else IMO.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    And here I would totally disagree. She was the dominant player of 1991-1992 yes, but it was not even close to the most dominant or greatest in the history of the sport.

    Seles in 1991-1992 was 144-11. She failed to win a Wimbledon and was humiliated 6-2, 6-1 in her one final there. She also lost other tournament finals by scorelines of 6-4, 6-3 and 6-4, 6-2 and 6-2, 6-3 to people like Graf, an aging Navratilova, and Sabatini. In 3 of her slam wins she was 2 points or less from defeat in 4 different matches including one she saved a match point.

    Navratilova in 1983-1984 was an unthinkable 154-3. She won 6 consecutive slams though failed to complete the Calendar Slam either year due to bad losses at the first slam of 1983 (the 83 French 3rd to Horvath) and the final slam of 1984 (semis to Sukova). She also beat her fellow legend Chris Evert THIRTEEN times in a row including thrashing her 6-3, 6-1 and 6-2, 6-0 on clay, the surface Chris is considered the greatest ever and once had a 125 match win streak (and also Martina's worst surface).

    Graf in 1988-1989 was 158-5. She won 7 out of 8 slams including the Calendar Slam in 1988, and lost in the final 7-5 in the final set of the other after being up 5-3, narrowly missing back to back Calendar Slams. She had no lopsided losses.

    Graf in 1995-1996 was 101-6, playing a limited schedule due to a chronic back problem. She won all 6 slams she played, doing the French-Wimbledon-U.S Open triple both years, missing the Australian Open both years with back problems. All her losses were in 3 sets apart from a 6-3, 6-3 loss to Lindsay Davenport and a retirement.

    Maureen Connolly between ages 16 to 19 won all 9 slam events she played.

    Margaret Court in 1969-1970 won 7 out of 8 slams including the Calendar Slam in 1970. Her only loss was the semis of Wimbledon in 3 sets to eventual Champion Ann Jones in 1969.

    So even discounting the pre historic champions like Lenglen and Wills Moody who reigned over non existent competition, Seles from 1991-1993 was not the most dominant or best that had ever been seen. In fact her dominance these years does not even scrape the surface of Navratilova or Graf in certain periods. And while Seles had Graf, Navratilova had Evert, Austin, and a young Graf, Graf had Navratilova in the late 80s, Court had King, Bueno, and a young Goolagong, Mo Connolly had Hart, Brough, Fry, and Gibson.

    As for dominating Graf in terms of her overall results in the early 90s she did. In terms of head to head play from 91-93 she actually trailed Graf 2-3 head to head, and during her two most dominant years 91-92 she trailed Graf 1-3 head to head with her only win being 10-8 in the final set. And as I already mentioned had a 6-2, 6-1 defeat to Graf in the Wimbledon final and another 6-4, 6-3 defeat in a tournament final on hard courts. She failed to dominate Graf in anyway head to head even during her overall dominance. Contrast that to Navratilova's 13 match win streak and continued blowout wins over fellow all time great Evert in 83-84 for example. There is no comparision.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2010
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Monica's 91-92 however was slightly superior to Serena's best 2 year stretch of 2002-2003, atleast statistically speaking.
     
  16. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I don't care the reasoning, Monica will always be the best in my opinion. You can throw all the statistics you want but she holds a very dear place in my heart. Obviously, I voted for Seles.

    It is important to remember that Seles' defeat in the Wimbledon final came right after she was threatened to quit her grunting or face penalties. She was unusually quiet during that match. I'm not even going to pretend she would have won if she grunted like she normally does but it would also be naive to say that this threat didn't clearly messed with her game and gave her one extra thing to think about in the match that was nothing but a distraction.
     
  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Good point since nobody complains about the amount of grunting Serena et. al do these days.
     
  18. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Congrats to Serena on Wimbledon #4 and Slam #13.
     
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Monica Seles will always be the best for me. She made history by winning Roland-Garros so young, and had a real suprematie on the sport at such a young age, against one the greatest ever (Steffi Graf).
    She was finalist at Wimbledon, so, she may have been able to win at least one...