Who must move up to Seniors in Pairs and Dance next season due to new age rules?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by euterpe, Mar 16, 2014.

  1. euterpe

    euterpe Well-Known Member

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    New age rules are in place for next season. What are the new cutoffs, and which Pair and Dance teams will have to move up to Seniors for next season?
     
  2. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    We'll have to wait and see what happens at the ISU Congress in June.

    Re-posting from the Junior Worlds forum in Kiss and Cry:
     
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I believe the changes were lowering the age of male partners in Pairs and Ice Dance from 21 to 20 and singles from 19 to 18?

    On paper, those changes do make sense and I would support them. But the problem is that Grand Prix is very exclusive and insular and Senior Worlds have very high minimum scores. So for a lot of skaters, there are few opportunities to skate at major events once they age out.
     
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    The new rule that passed at the ISU Congress in 2012 lowered the ISU Junior male partners' maximum age by one year.

    ISU Rule 108 as currently published: http://static.isu.org/media/79153/2012_constitution_and_general_regulations.pdf
    Relevant exerpts:
     
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Ah so it was still 19 for singles. Thanks for linking that, Sylvia.
     
  6. oubik

    oubik Well-Known Member

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    + It was also lowering the singles novice skaters age by one year (from 15 to 14) with getting back the age of 17 for novice ice dance and pairs males and ending the "age disproportion" between ISU champs and other events for senior and 15 is the new magic senior number.
     
  7. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Is there any word on whether or not these other age rules that passed in 2010 will go into effect? Or is the male pairs/dance maximum age rule the only one being reconsidered?
     
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    I really hope that 15 does become the age for all senior competitions because the current disparity does not make sense.

    I would also support lowering the maximum Novice age to 14 (and 17 for male Pair and Ice Dance partners), given you can complete in Juniors from age 13 and Seniors from age 15.
     
  9. watchthis!!

    watchthis!! Active Member

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    Apparently nobody! :p
     
  10. RunDanceSkate

    RunDanceSkate New Member

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    I think this is correct for the Canadian male dancers

    1 Mackenzie Bent / Garrett MacKeen EO 59.63 82.98 142.61 age 20
    5 Carolane Soucisse / Simon Tanguay QC 46.52 80.43 126.95 age 21
    6 Lauren Collins / Danny Seymour CO 45.78 74.15 119.93 – split age 20
    7 Audrey Croteau-Villeneuve / Dominic Barthe QC 46.27 65.03 111.30 – split age 21
    13 Caroline Falardeau / Benjamin Mulder QC 43.67 58.12 101.79 age 20
    14 Alexa Linden / Eric Streichsbier BC/YK 39.04 57.10 96.14 – split age 20
    17 Margo Huen / Matthew Webb NS 38.98 56.86 95.84 age 20
    18 Jade Robitaille / Philippe Granger QC 42.36 48.55 90.91 ??
    19 Jocelyn Leblanc / Jean-Luc Jackson SK 39.08 49.72 88.80 age 20
    21 Andie-Lynn Gingrich / Dayton Stewart AB/NT/NU 36.96 44.06 81.02 age 20
    22 Abigail Seewald / Steven Paslawsky AB/NT/NU 35.31 42.63 77.94 age 20
    WD Jessica Jiang / Tyler Miller BC/YK age 20
     
  11. insideedgeua

    insideedgeua Member

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    I believe at least three countries have put in proposals to the ISU to keep the current ages for male pair and dance partners.

    When you look at how small the field was this year at Junior Worlds for pair (with even less countries represented), lowering the male age doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Males don't really attain their adult body shapes/physique/muscle strength until older so this makes sense.

    We could end up with a real 'no man's land' in pair. With junior under 20 and then senior pair men ( at the top level) all being around 24/25 or older.

    Just take a look at the ages of the top pairs now, the men are considerably older than 20.

    Hopefully the ISU will consider all of the stats and think about whether they are serious about developing pairs worldwide or not.
     
  12. La La Candy

    La La Candy New Member

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    My sister, who is still slightly involved with skating in the Vancouver area, was telling me that Skate Canada is one of the countries to put forward the proposal to the ISU to keep the 21 age requirement. Apparently the proposal wouldn't go to the ISU for a vote until the summer...which obviously would give coaches/skaters zero time to prepare should it go through (as I assume if it did go through, those who could do an extra year junior would do so). To rectify the situation, my sister was told that the Skate Canada high performance committee has decided that for the upcoming season, the 21 age requirement will stay in place for domestic competitions....no matter what the outcome of the ISU vote. Only Canadian teams competing internationally will have to meet ISU age requirements. Good job Skate Canada!!
     
  13. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    There is a number of teams (at least in Russia) who competed at both junior and senior level, for example at both junior and senior nationals. That meant that they had two versions of the same programs, one slightly shorted and with less elements. So I can't see a reason why the skaters and coaches you are talking about wouldn't have time to prepare if they don't know the outcome until the summer. They can for example prepare the junior program and make sure that they are ready for August because the junior season start sooner, and then if they find out in the summer that they are not eligible for juniors, they will add 30 seconds or how much longer the senior program is and add the extra element. They will still have a month to do those changes because seniors season starts six weeks later than junior season. Actually, this is pretty common in single skating too. Polina Edmunds competed internationally in both junior and seniors this season, so did Elena Radionova. Sakhanovich, Proklova and Medvedeva competed in Russian senior nationals, so they had to have junior and senior version too. And four junior pairs competed in senior nationals.
     
  14. La La Candy

    La La Candy New Member

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    Sorry, I forgot to say that this is for ice dance - not pairs. I understand there are dancers who compete internationally both at the junior and senior level and therefore have 2 different short dance programs and altered/lengthened free dance programs...but I think the concern with Skate Canada was more related to the national level competitors who don't compete internationally and maybe don't have the resources to prepare 2 short dances..one that would never be used.
     
  15. Rogueskater

    Rogueskater New Member

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    I guess I am of a minority here but I am hoping that the rules are not changed and that the boys at the age of 20 will need to go senior. As a mother of a girl searching for a senior ice dance partner the field of prospects is pretty dim if the 20 yr olds are allowed to skate in junior for yet another year where as the girls are forced to skate senior at 19.

    After watching the pairs competition at worlds yesterday I was sickened by the composition of many of the teams - a prepubescent girl with a 25 yr or older balding male. I think there should be a rule governing how much of an age gap there can be between the partners.
     
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  16. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Then there would be even less pairs around if you make regulation about age difference between the partners. It is hard enough to find a partner at all, so if you had to decline someone because he/she is more than let's say 5 years older or younger, there would soon be no pair skating. Wouldn't your daughter be happy for a skating partner even if he was 8-10 years older? Or would be be more happy that she hasn't got anyone at all?
     
  17. Rogueskater

    Rogueskater New Member

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    In my opinion an age gap restriction should be considered. I think there is something odd and disturbing when I look at a 29 yr old man with a prepubescent girl doing senior pairs. Maybe there would be an increase number of teams if a stop was put into place. I guess unless a true research study is conducted on that, we won't truly know.

    Whether it is ice dance or pairs, girls are being made to feel like they are washed up and not worthy by these rules as written forcing them to go senior at 19 whereas the males are allowed to hang out in the junior eligible ranks for additional years.
     
  18. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

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    Among the sixteen teams who qualified for the freeskate, only three of the women are under 20 (born in 1995 or later): the other three are 16; nearly 17; and 18 turning 19 in July. I wouldn't call that "many of the teams" having a "prepubescent girl." (Of the seven teams eliminated after the short program, three have a girl under 20 (born in 1995 or later).)

    Pair men usually aren't ready for Seniors at 20; this is especially true if their partner is past puberty. Lifts are generally far more complex than they were pre-IJS, and men tend to grow and "bulk" between 19 and 21. There is also the issue of wear-and-tear: perhaps a 20 year old man can do a Level 4 lift with a fully-grown partner, but he may not have the strength, experience, or muscle memory to do three or four different Level 4 lifts several dozen times per day, plus triple twists. It's an age range where many men come into pair skating, and with the current rules that emphasize success in Junior (i.e., points accumulated), it's very challenging for new, young Senior teams to get on the Grand Prix if neither partner has points accumulated from Junior.
     
  19. Rogueskater

    Rogueskater New Member

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    5Ali3 you bring up a very interesting and true point about the current rules for accumulating points in the junior levels. It is very biased toward boys as they are able to stay junior until the age of 21. This again is a disadvantage for girls as they currently have a shorter time in junior. If boys are able to stay junior until 21 then girls should be able to as well.
     
  20. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if they really don't want to move up, guys can just switch partners, while girls have to move up earlier.
     
  21. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    If the partnership was working so great, the male partner would not want to switch their partner while the female has to move up, because the male would realise that by the time he gels with the new partner, the time would be wasted and he may as well move with the (first) girl to seniors now. that is, if the partnership really works. If it doesn't work, they would break up anyway...
     
  22. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

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    Well, I am confused where exactly you are watching "the composition of many of the teams - a prepubescent girl with a 25 yr or older balding male". It appears that it was not the case at this worlds. And I am pretty certain that if your daughter who you wrote is 20 y.o. had a choice to do pairs or ice dance with 30.y.o. or the alternative would be remain without partner, she would grab the 30 y.o. without thinking twice about his age. Senior championships is for skaters 16 years old and older. At 16 years old you are able to get married with parental consent, so I don't think you are too young to ice dance or do pairs with someone who is 10 years older. After all, the girl doesn't have to sleep with him; she can just SKATE with him!
     
  23. oubik

    oubik Well-Known Member

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    At the time being only two proposals I´ve been informed about - back to 21 at male´s Pairs and ID for juniors and back to 15 ïn Novice singles (this proposal came from Scandic countries as they have some age rules for abroad competing (sorry if I did understand this incorrectly as it was explained to me by somebody who is not either Swede, Dane, Norweigic or Finnish :)).
     
  24. Rogueskater

    Rogueskater New Member

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    Hanca, in my original post I did say that in my opinion I did not like the look of a prepubescent girl with a 29 yr old male. I am not going to name the teams I am referring to, anyone who is interested can check the ages of the teams at worlds and make their own opinion as to whether they feel it would be right for them and their daughters. I do respect your opinion as well as the other posters here who responded, partnerships are hard, good partnerships are hard to come by but even with knowing that, I know my daughter would not settle for just any type of partnership because this is all that there is. She is not desperate.

    Gosh 16 with permission to wed is a law that I would hope to see changed. Just because it is allowed does it make it right. I am not certain where you are from but I will point out that other things would not be allowed in multiple provinces in Canada or states in the USA; for instance at 16 in Ontario you can't get a drivers license, or vote or go to a bar and drink.

    I still would like to see the rules for junior eligibility be equalized so that if boys are allowed to stay eligible til 21 then girls are as well.
     
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to Nationals!

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    Belated thanks for your reply!
     
  26. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    What is the rationale for having different ages for men and women?

    I think it should be the same for both.
     
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  27. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Probably because men cannot generally safely start pairs at a young age. The have to be developed enough to lift the women/girls safely. Intensive strength training too early can effect growth.

    If they lowered the men's ages, there would be very few pairs at all. Presumably they do not want to raise the ladies age to match it because juniors are meant to be younger.
     
  28. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    That explains why the age cut-off should be 21 (or higher), but not why the women should have a lower age. I don't see why having experience and being able to be paired up with someone one's own age after possibly outgrowing the last partner should be penalized.
     
  29. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm wrong, English isn't my first language but doesn't prepubescent girl mean a girl before puperty? So technically, that would mean a 12/13 year old with a 29 year old in seniors? I thought there was an age restriction for pairs/dance girls as to when they can start doing seniors as well?
     
  30. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

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    Often female athletes have delayed menstrual cycles and a pre-pubescent body type years after the typical age for puberty.