Who medals in 96 womens AA with everyone hitting

Discussion in 'Other Sports' started by judgejudy27, May 5, 2010.

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Who medals in 1996 womens gymnatics AA if all hit- pick 3 options

  1. Podkopayeva

    90.7%
  2. Gogean

    2.3%
  3. Milosovici

    2.3%
  4. Amanar

    18.6%
  5. Huilan

    74.4%
  6. Kochetkova

    11.6%
  7. Galieva

    2.3%
  8. Miller

    27.9%
  9. Dawes

    48.8%
  10. Khorkina

    20.9%
  11. A BelaRussian Boginskaya or Piskun

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  12. an absent person from AA finals (Marinescu, Grosheva, Strug, Phelps, Yuanyuan)

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Who do you believe would have medaled in the 1996 AA had all the top AA contenders hit? I believe it would have been Podkopayeva, Huilan, and Amanar, in one order or another. Pick the 3 you think.
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Ooops I just realize I left Moceanu out of the poll.
  3. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Apparently I agreed with everyone else. LOL!

    Pod, Huilan and Dawes. If not Dawes then Miller. I think they would have gotten one US gymnast on there if they hit but bronze could have been theirs without judges help if they maxed out their scores. It would have been close between them for bronze.
  4. Cloudy_Gumdrops

    Cloudy_Gumdrops New Member

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    I agree about those three.
  5. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

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    ITA
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Of course there is a wide definition of hitting. When a gymnast has hops on 2 or 3 of their dismounts and another has none you often say both hit and yet the field was so close this year that would have made a big difference in the results. If all the gymnasts had done their best routines with stuck landings and no obvious mistakes these are my estimates on their scores and the final standings:

    Mo Huilan- 9.85 vault, 9.85 bars, 9.90 beam, 9.75 floor. 39.350 total
    Lilia Podkopayeva- 9.80 vault, 9.825 bars, 9.825 beam, 9.9 floor, 39.350 total
    Simona Amanar- 9.85 vault, 9.80 bars, 9.75 beam, 9.85 floor, 39.250 total
    Dawes- 9.75 vault, 9.85 bars, 9.825 beam, 9.825 floor, 39.250 total
    Kochetkova- 9.70 vault, 9.825 bars, 9.825 beam, 9.825 floor- 39.175 total
    Moceanu- 9.70 vault, 9.80 bars, 9.85 beam, 9.825 floor, 39.175 total
    Gogean- 9.80 vault, 9.70 bars, 9.80 beam, 9.825 floor- 39.125 total
    Milosovici- 9.75 vault, 9.75 bars, 9.80 beam, 9.80 floor- 39.100 total
    Galieva- 9.775 vault, 9.775 bars, 9.850 beam, 9.700 floor- 39.100 total
    Miller- 9.75 vault, 9.75 bars, 9.875 beam, 9.700 foor- 39.075 total
    Khorkina- 9.70 vault, 9.85 bars, 9.80 beam, 9.70 floor- 39.050 total

    So I guess what I see in that scenario would have been Podkopayeva and Huilan fighting for gold. Amanar and Dawes fighting for bronze. Kochetkova and Moceanu with an outside shot to medal but probably fighting to get into the top 5. Gogean, Milosovici, and Galieva lower down in the top 10. Miller and Khorkina fighting for the final spot in the top 10. I am surprised Miller and Khorkina have any votes to be honest, especialy Khorkina who actually did hit all her routines that night and was still virtually out of it going into the last event even with all the mistakes.
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    On another note if Podkopayeva and little Mo had hit all their routines cold I would have been slightly dissapointed if Lilia had won. I know by results she was considered the top gymnast at the time but Mo at her best is the slightly better all around gymast IMO. The only even Lilia is better than a completley "on" Mo is floor, granted she is much better on floor, but I would still give it to Huilan in that scenario.
  8. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Judgejudy, Miller scored a 9.762 on compulsory and 9.75 on optional bars in the aa. I find it a little odd to think she would only score 9.750 if she hit her best set. I think she could have gone 9.800 if her dismount went up more and she landed it more upright. She stuck her double layout in optionals but she barely got the dismount around. She also scored higher than the 9.85 you list for her beam, during every single optional performance she gave. I think it is fair to think she could have gone 9.900 if she stuck her dismount which, while she came so close, she never quite did in Atlanta. She always had a small shuffle of a foot or something, an outright stick would have surely resulted in a higher score. I'm just noticing you gave many athletes the option of scoring a bit higher than they did during the competition but for some reason you think Miller would have scored lower on beam than she did during any other phase? Quite odd.
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Shannon actually did hit her best bars set in the AA final with a stuck landing and got a 9.750. So I dont even have to speculate there. She isnt capable of doing the double layout dismount on bars that well as far as form and amplitude, she never has, especialy not in later years with her bigger body. She did a 9.787 in team finals on bars but all the scores were higher that day. To witness just look at Simona Amanar's scores from team optionals in Atlanta:

    vault- 9.887, bars- 9.825, beam- 9.800, floor- 9.887.

    The same goes for Miller's double layout on floor. She is capable of landing it on floor much better than she did in Atlanta, but only with somewhat bent knees and not much power (eg- the one she did at U.S Nationals).

    As for beam she scored a 9.862 on every beam routine she did in Atlanta. The one she did in the AA was stuck cold and the one she did in team optionals and event finals had the smallest shuffle. Except on vault judges hardly deduct anything even for small regular hops, let alone a tiny shuffle, which indicates as I suspect no deduction or difference from the judges. I was doing an rough estimates on the scores which is why I said 9.850 rather than 9.862, but yes I could change that to 9.862 easily. If one actually assumes the judges would ever deduct half a tenth for a tiny shuffle (outside of vault they clearly dont going over all the scores gymnasts get with and without landing errors) then I should assume they had deducted .3 for Mo's huge hop backwards on her AA beam routine and assume she was scoring a 10.1 with a stuck landing too. If one takes the supposed status deductions for landings literally than one would have to assume Amanar, Podkopayeva, Kochetkova would have all scored 9.887 in bar events finals and buried Khorkina, Chow, and Bi with a stuck landing too as they had a regular hop each (if a tiny shuffle is half a tenth, a regular hop would have to be a tenth). Yet even assuming the half tenth for each with their regular hops on landing that would have given each a 9.837 and 5 way tie with Chow and Bi for silver seems unlikely.
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  10. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Yes but Miller got a 9.862 on her beam sets and they all had one obvious error. During team optionals and EF she took the small step/shuffle on her dismount. During her AA set she had a very obvious step back during her flight series. I know steps on series are not the same as a step on vault or during a dismount but it was obvious and I doubt many judges over looked it. Her dismount was also awfully close to being one of those "hurry up and salute before I step back" dismounts. I know the difference is not much but I think she was capable of 9.900 if she had no errors and since she scored 9.862 each time with one small error, I can only think her score would have possibly gone up even if only by a small small amount.

    I lover arguing gymnastics so I don't mean to be "fighting" or anything. Just really fun to discuss and dissect these routines that I have seen thousands of times by now!

    Her AA beam routine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTYaZNAHkyo&feature=related
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Miller's beam optionals score in every phase was a 9.862 hence my estimate of a 9.850 as I wasnt going that exact on scoring guesses for each routine as it becomes just too complicated at that point. Like I said her AA beam dismount was stuck cold, check out the routine yourself which is up on youtube.

    As for the others I gave the option of scoring higher:

    Lilia- on bars she actually bent her knees badly on her low to high bar transition early which is a big mistake, and was very lucky the judges didnt deduct more and got a 9.8. Who knows what they really deducted but they should have decucted something. On beam she had a big hop on the dismount and scored a 9.787, her other 2 beam performances in Atlanta were 9.825.

    Mo- She did not stick her landing on bars in any of her routines actually. Big step on one of her Yurchenko double fulls,. On bars double layout dismount landed forward with small step on both her optional bar routines (and the idea of her scoring any lower than 9.85 with a stick with that amazing routine would be crazy), and bounded way backwards with a hug hop on her beam dismount.

    Galieva- I didnt see any of her optional vaults except for event finals. I based her scoring potential basically on her yurchenko 1 1/2 from there.

    Kochetkova- I dont remember her routines from the AA too well. I based her scoring potential on her event final routines, all which had visible errors of some kind and did not max out her scoring potential.

    Amanar- she didnt stick any landing except for vault, and on floor she had a big mistake doing a single turn instead of the required double turn which cost her .1 (the only reason she didnt even end up beating her two teammates). Anyway her scoring potential is hard to figure as you can see in my post above in team optionals the judges were going crazy for her, yet in AA finals they were very lukewarm even for her good performances. That is another variable that makes it hard to consider all possible factors, some panels might really like a certain gymast, others might not.

    I am not sure who else you might be referring to.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well I see what you are seeing but we will have to agree to disagree. I dont think Miller was worth a 9.9 on beam in Atlanta, unless Mo and Kui at their best were worth a 9.95 or more. Her beam was excellent but not as spectacular as those two girls I mentioned at their best, and really much if any better than Kochetkova, Marinescu, or even Podkopayeva or Dawes at their best either. I also look at how everyone was scored on beam. Lilia got 9.825 on both her somewhat hit beam sets, even though her event final ones had some small errors and her team finals one was flawless. Kochetkova was given a 9.825 for both her hit beam sets, even though her one in the AA was better.

    Mo also got a 9.8 on beam in the AA even with a monstrous out of control hop backwards on the dismount:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2BpbO9sv58

    I am assuming they only took a tenth or at most a tenth and a half from a 9.9 or even 9.95 at most, since they never gave out perfect 10s then. So if that is all they took for that I cant imagine Miller did anything in any of her beam routines that was deducted at all.

    Anyway I bumped Miller up to a 9.875 on beam. Her placing still doesnt change.

    I am definitely not changing her bars score as I dont think she was capable of doing a bars set any better than her actual AA bars routine at all, and in addition a hit Miller bars routine definitely should not score equal to a Mo Huilan bar routine with a small step forward. Others are free to estimate their own scores for each gymast of course. Those are just my opinions based on how the judges were scoring the gymnasts throughout the Games for what they did.
    Last edited: May 5, 2010
  13. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    Sympathy vote for Kochetkova. She was my favorite Russian of the 96 quad.
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am very surprised Khorkina has more votes than Kochetkova and Galieva. I dont think Khorkina was the top Russian AAer at the time of the 96 Games at all other than in hype perhaps. I know she had been 2nd at the 95 Worlds AA, however her vault and tumbling on floor in Atlanta were so weak, much worse than the previous 2 seasons even. When she hit she was getting 9.6-9.7 range scores on those events in Atlanta. Given that she did hit all her routines up until bars in Atlanta and still probably would have come in behind Gogean, Milosovici and Amanar (who had a big mistake on floor) for an AA medal even with her usual 9.85+ on bars even with all the mistakes that night, I thought of excluding her from the poll altogether. In fact if I could correct the poll I would probably replace her with Moceanu and move Khorkina in the category with Boginskaya and Piskun. If Grosheva hadnt had her 2 big mistakes in the team competition the scores say she actually would have bumped Khorkina from the AA that year too, and Khorkina had no mistakes in the team event.

    I always laugh too at the fluff pieces hype in the aftermath that the fall on bars cost Khorkina the AA gold when she needed a score higher than 10 on bars to tie Lilia's total at that point. Many seemed to confuse how great a gymnast Khorkina would become with what her AA status in Atlanta really was.
  15. Beefcake

    Beefcake Guest

    :lol: Buzz's theoretical Olympics had seven medalists.
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Although I found Mo Huilan's FX choroegraphy a stepback in Atlanta (from what she was doing in the past two seasons), I was never too crazy about Podkopayeva's Optional FX either. I always thought all of her FX choreography was pretty much beneath her and pretty ridiculous at times. It was her FX compulsories that made you :swoon: As for as tumbling, I love LiliaPod's opening pass (as does everyone else I think) but I hated how this code made gymnasts do these lame watered-down front tumbling passes that were less than...exciting. I slightly preferred Huilan's set.

    I'm biased though because Mo Huilan was my favorite gymnast of that quad.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well Mo's floor choreography in 1996 was cheesy, she isnt anywhere near the dancer on floor that Lilia is, and her tumbling was nowhere near as powerful or clean as Lilia's. I agree that overall her tumbling passes were probably harder even with Lilia's incredibly had first pass.
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I'm not disagreeing with that, but I found LiliaPod's FX choreography to be way beneath her standards. I found that a bit more noticeable from her than from Huilan who was capable of great presentation but isn't the dancer LiliaPod is.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    My favorite floor routine of Lilia's was her 1994 one. If she were a big name she would have been getting 9.9+ on floor everytime out then IMO. I also really liked her 95 one. I loved Mo's floor routine in 94-95 but hated her 96 one.
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Very difficult to say.
    Mo Huilan and Dina Kochetkova were probably the finest gym at this time. But Lilia Podkopaieva was clearly the best.
    My vote goes to : Lilia Podkopaieva, Svetlana Khorkina and Mo Huilan. With a special mention to Dina Kochetkova and Dominique Dawes.
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if LiliaPod was clearly the best. When it came to Beam, UB, and VT, I thought Mo was clearly better. Don't get me wrong, though, I am extremely happy she was the 1996 Olympic AA champ because LiliaPod is probably the best Olympic AAer we had until Nastia Liukin graced the top of the podium.
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If everyone had hit cold in the 96 AA I would have given it to Mo over Lilia, but I dont know what the judges would have done. As it was in the AA Mo had zero shot of overtaking Lilia on floor even if she had hit. She was ahead of Lilia going into the last event and needed a 9.856 to win but that score was clearly too high for her on floor. She lost her shot with that huge hop on her beam dismount. She was capable of a 9.9+ on beam and only got a 9.8 with that dismount, and since Lilia is so much better than her on floor (scoring wise regardless of opinions) that is what she needed to control her own destiny going into the last event.
  23. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    Wow, my answers matched the other popular choices - IMO, Huilan, Dawes and Lilia were THEE outstanding TALENTS of these Games. But of the three, only Pod had the compettive nerve to go with it, unfortunately.
  24. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Podkopayeva, Miller, and Dawes.

    . . . I think that those that voted for Khorkina are cute, but she was frumpy back then and could not even beat Bogi at Euros. In addition to Bogi, I think that Milosovici, Amanar, and Gogean had a better chance than Khorkina since they all actually medaled in the AA.

    I admit, Miller and Dawes are sentimental favorites, but they were both legitimately in the hunt.

    ETA: I change my vote to Podkopayeva, Miller, and (one of the Romanians that actually medaled, most likely Milo since she was the Euros Bronze Medalist).
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think Khorkina is way overrated in this poll. If everyone had hit I personally think she would have finished 11th behind in some order Podkopayeva, Huilan, her teammates Kochetkova and Galieva, all 3 Americans including Moceanu, and probably the 3 Romanians. If I could redo the poll I would actually replace Khorkina with Moceanu and jump mix Khorkina with the 2 Belarussians. I knew I was forgetting someone when I started this poll. I am not a fan of Moceanu's gymnastics at all but she did score a 9.812 on bars, 9.850 on beam, and 9.837 on floor in team optionals. She was way overrated and overmarked when she was a young pixie like gymnast with flawed form and style, and based on that was a contender. I actually think she might have had a better shot than Miller though maybe not Dawes.

    Khorkina did have a fall on beam in the AA at Europeans though so one cant really tell much from that. In the AA in Atlanta though she hit her first 3 routines with total sticks and was still sitting way down in 7th or 8th, even after Dawes, Miller, Galieva, Moceanu, and Boginskaya had already blown 1 or more of their routines and were right out of it. Granted she was ending on bars but I dont think even that was going to produce a miracle for her at that moment. Her tumbling and vaulting in Atlanta was small with no power which is why her floor and vault was getting such low scores for top gymnast standards. It is amazing how much more powerful she looked in 94 and 95 even then in 96, I suspect she had an injury of some kind.
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    This is something funny from the 96 European Gymnastics Championships. Amanar actually tieing Khorkina for the gold (along with Podkopayeva) on the uneven bars. I wonder what the judges were smoking there, LOL!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZWMOrLv5zk

    Amanar was strangely scored always in 95-97 I found. Often undermarked in the all around, yet overmarked in individual team scoring and event final scoring. It is amazing her team optionals score from Atlanta was over 3 tenths than her all around total when her routines were almost the same.
  27. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I don't mean to be rude but I think the people who voted for Khorkina probably weren't following the sport in 1996 and just assume she was a huge threat. The truth was she was never going to medal unless there was a debacle of Sydney proportions. It just speaks to her reputation and legacy, though!
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Grosheva would have even bumped her out of the AA as one of the top 3 Russians had she not had her 2 major mistakes (beam optionals nearly falling on mount, bars compulsories fall). The scores prove this and Khorkina hit every routine in the team competition too. Amongst the Russians Galieva and Kochetkova were WAY bigger threats for an AA medal than Khorkina in 96. They were better than Khorkina on every event except bars.
  29. asdf334

    asdf334 New Member

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    I think Khorkina had a back injury.
  30. asdf334

    asdf334 New Member

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    I don't think Miller's bars scores would have (or should have) gone higher either. That being said, there is some speculation that Jackie Fie (head of the FIG technical committe at the time, and from the US), had her scores held back on bars in the team rounds to help get Chow and Dawes into bars finals since they had routines that were much more likely to contend for medals.
    Last edited: May 10, 2010
  31. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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    ITA. She didn't become an AA threat until the 00 Games. In 96 her vault and floor was still weak.

    I disagree that Dawes would've medaled. She had too many form problems to be a threat if everyone hit. The home team advantage score bump that Dawes sometimes benefited from would've gone to the more established Miller.

    The qualifying results are interesting. Podkopayeva, Miller, Kotchetkova. I would've been OK with that podium.
    http://www.gymnasticsresults.com/olympics/og1996wagqual.html
  32. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    The qualifying results are indeed interesting. If you only look at Optionals, which makes the most sense because scores did not carry over, the results of those ended up like this:

    1. Amanar (39.387)
    2. Dawes (39.187)
    3. Milo (39.111)
    4. Gogean (39.100)
    5. Strug (39.073)

    Goes to show how there was some nice over scoring for Team Finals in that last group.

    Pod and Miller were the only two to score 39 or higher in compulsories.
  33. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The judging of Amanar was perplexing often in 95 and 96 as often it seemed the judges were just in love with her and other times they were very cool. She was both under and overscored at times. She did perform better in team optionals than the AA but the huge spread in scores was something else. The excitement over her scores in team optionals is probably what caused the switch with Marinescu, Belu probably thought based on those scores if she hit she would be unbeatable in the AA but turned out to be far from the case.
  34. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Was Marinescu too young to be in Atlanta? Hasn't that been proven?
  35. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah the funniest thing is Marinescu is actually younger than Vanessa Atler by a month. However since her age was falsified by a year and the age limit changed around then Marinescu got to compete in the 95 Worlds, 96 Worlds, 96 Olympics, and 97 Worlds, while Atler just missed the cut off date to compete in any of them. Yet some people actually feel sympathy for Marinescu for getting pulled from the AA in favor of Amanar twice when she shouldnt have been at any of those events.

    If people were consistent in how they handled that sort of thing they would probably investigate further and maybe take away Romanias team gold in 95, Olympic team bronze in 96, and team gold in 97, in addition to the beam silver of Marinescu at the 96 event Worlds.
  36. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

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    I meant to vote for Dawes instead of Khorkina. :eek: Just noticed that mistake...that'll teach me not to vote on the run next time.

    Dawes' FX is one of my favorite of those Games. :( At least she was able to redeem herself somewhat and get bronze in the EFs.
  37. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Right and she did perform well in the UB finals.
  38. Quintuple

    Quintuple papillon d'amour

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    HAH. Before seeing this poll I was totally thinking about how much I hated Lilia's floor performances in the '94-'95 era. (I didn't love '96, but it wasn't as heinous. But no, I did not think I was at the Boshoi.)

    There are certain associations that give me a headache thinking of them. One thing is neon orange crackers with brown peanut butter sandwiched in between. Every time I saw them in elementary school, I got this feeling of a dry, parched, barfy headache. I get the same feeling when I think of that neon pink/yellow/blue UKR leotard from '94 and Lilia doing Hava Nagilia or that disco Indian/Arabic music. I screamed at the TV as she would wait 5 seconds facing her final corner, then did little hops and arm waves, then waited 5 seconds more. Ooooh, that Lilia.

    That said, I still cringe every time I watch Mo's funky chicken to the really stereotypical cheesy "Chinese" sound in the music. Ugggh.

    I know there are so many examples of good choreo from the late '80s on FX, but I want to point to Vanda Hadarean from 1992: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjo5RJXUPvs

    So much variety of movement and fluidity between passes. Of course there are good later examples of real "dance pieces" (Yang Yun from 2000), but yeah. Kinda like how '80s bars is SO much more complex and interesting than 1992-2000 bars.

    OK, [/side-topic-rant], sorry.
  39. vesperholly

    vesperholly Well-Known Member

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  40. Braulio

    Braulio Well-Known Member

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    Podkopayeva, Huilan and Dawes