Who is the male version of Miki Ando?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by pinky166, Dec 8, 2010.

?

Who is the male version of Miki Ando?

  1. Evgeni Plushenko

    10 vote(s)
    9.8%
  2. Evan Lysacek

    4 vote(s)
    3.9%
  3. Brian Joubert

    33 vote(s)
    32.4%
  4. Nobunari Oda

    13 vote(s)
    12.7%
  5. Kevin Van Der Perren

    27 vote(s)
    26.5%
  6. Kevin Reynolds

    5 vote(s)
    4.9%
  7. Michal Brezina

    4 vote(s)
    3.9%
  8. Other - please identify in post

    6 vote(s)
    5.9%
  1. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2010
    Messages:
    1,004
    Thanks for a quick reply.
    Do you have a video link of this? I'd be interested in finding out if her jumps were rotated enough for today’s standards.
    I'd also appreciate it if you let me know which event this took place.
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    In terms of current ability, Yu Na Kim for sure. Possibly even Rochette. And last year Asada. Miki doesnt even do 3-3 combos anymore, atleast ones that are ratified.
     
  3. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2007
    Messages:
    600
    Watch the 2004 world long program. She did 3Lz+3Lo and 3T+3Lo or (3T+3T) cant remember.
     
  4. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    14,083
    It was a 3T+3T. :)
     
  5. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,716
    Well, Mao didn't even do a lutz nor salcow last season. At least Miki has done 5 different triples. Plus Miki's techiniques are much better than Mao.
     
  6. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,116
    Chengjiang Li maybe..

    I voted Joubert though.
     
  7. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,260
  8. Indra486

    Indra486 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2006
    Messages:
    1,650
    Then you weren't paying close enough attention.

    Shizuka Arakawa and Kimmie Meissner both did 3-3s. Say what you want about theirs being underrotated but at the point and time they competed them, theirs were considered acceptable; with Meissner's under the IJS.
     
  9. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    151
    I’m not challenging the fact Miki is (and was) a great jumper but I think there is a difference between her and Brian: Joubert was winning because he was the best jumper. Miki won her world title not only because she was ONE of the strongest jumper, but also (and mostly) because her rivals made serious mistakes.

    And yes- I think both: Kim and Asada were better jumpers than Ando. Asada could do more difficult jumps and usually her GOE was similar to Ando’s ( she was doing flutz instead of lutz but accoriding to current rules it wasn’t so important), Yuna wasn’t doing 3 loop , but she had two combinations with 3 toe and she was getting the highest GOE for jumps among all ladies.

    And I always have an impression they both have better landing positions than Miki: She always lands her jumps with a bit too low back and because of that they don’t look smooth to me.

    Moreover Miki is better artist than Brian (maybe not perfect but better) - that’s why I don’t think he’s her “male version”. She’s a specific skater and I know that not everyone likes her (I’m not numbered among fans of her style either) but still I’m far from saying she’s a “terrible skater” or things like that.

    And I don’t think she’s too thin- She looks ok to me.
     
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    4 different triples but ability to do 3 triple axels in one competition >> having the standard 5 womens triples but not doing any triple-triples (that get ratified)
     
  11. Extranjera

    Extranjera New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2010
    Messages:
    151
    ITA. Michelle Kwan also could land 5 kinds of triples and even triple-triple combination but I don't think someone considers her to be one of the strongest jumper.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    Atleast in 2007 there could be an argument for Miki being the best jumper but it is only an argument. As it is I am pretty sure Kim and Asada on a good day collected more points on jumps than she did. A good comparision would be the short program were Ando regularly ended up below Kim and Asada if all skated cleanly. And I think breaking down the protocals they both gained more points on jumps than her most times (despite Kim doing an easier triple-triple combo). Either way she was never hands down the best jumper like Joubert. And unlike Joubert, Ando atleast made an attempt to improve other areas of her skating over the years. So I agree they are different skaters.

    Now it would be even be more unlikely since unlike 2007 she isnt doing any of the hard triple combinations she did then, especialy the triple lutz-triple loop. If she is it would only be because everything who matters is missing now.
     
  13. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,047
    Yuna can only jump with her toes. Her edge jumps are :blah:. Miki's really the only female out there who knows how to jump with edges and with toes.

    Mao has odd technique on many of her jumps (which is why she's trying to fix them), and Rochette probably comes closest to Miki in term of jumps.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    What matters is how you collect points. Kim and a good Asada collect more points on their jumps than either Ando or Rochette, thus their jumps are "better" in a competitive sense. Kristi could only do toe jumps as well and she was still a better jumper than Kerrigan or Bonaly who could do all kinds of jumps.
     
  15. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,520
  16. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,716
    According to who? is that a fact or your assesment only? Kristi was never known for her jumping, if I remember correctly.
     
  17. igniculus

    igniculus Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,292
  18. doubleflutz

    doubleflutz New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2010
    Messages:
    767
    She landed 3LZ-3T back in the Dark Ages, before most ladies were even bothering with 3T-3T. Her jumps were quite small, but she was absolutely a better jumper than Kerrigan and Bonaly. I think she gets overlooked as a jumper, because her biggest domestic rival was Tonya Harding, and internationally it was Midori Ito, who were both so good at their peak, they could have won the Men's event, at least as far as jumping goes.
     
  19. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,260
    Actually a good comparison, although Contesti probably is even more of a jumping bean than Miki (if that's possible) - his skating is really scratchy. He does usually do well for himself though and I'm sometimes :confused: at the PCS marks he gets. To me it seems like he has no flow and the skating skills of a novice, but the judges seem to think otherwise.
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    Kristi's jumps were more valuable to points than either Kerrigan or Bonaly (well atleast while she and Bonaly competed head to head). Doing a triple lutz- triple toe that was quite consistent, and consistently landing 2 triple lutzes, and 5 or 6 triples, despite hardly ever landing an edge jump other than sometimes a triple loop, was of more value than what either Kerrigan or Bonaly who was comfortable doing each triple bar the triple axel was putting out on a regular basis. If competitions were just scored on jumps from 89-92, there probably still isnt a single competition Kerrigan or Bonaly would have beaten her, or if there is one feel free to point out which it was, despite Kristi's small jumps and being only a toe jumper. The fact Kerrigan who was somewhat competitive on the 2nd mark never did beat Kristi in that period already reflects that.
     
  21. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2009
    Messages:
    2,047
    Well, Kerrigan never truly had a good training ethic before bombing her 93 Worlds LP, and Bonaly didn't really get stronger jumps until after the Olympics in Albertville (you know, her jumps were all over the place).
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    Yes this is very true. Still being equally adapt at toe and edge jumps doesnt neccessarily make you a better jumper as far as competitive worth than someone who isnt. Kim if she jumps her best will still produce more points without a triple axel or triple loop will produce more points just out of jumps than even peak Miki Ando, let alone the current Miki Ando who doesnt do as difficult of jump combinations or as many triples as she used to. Likewise Asada with her 3 axels does not need to do all the triples to produce more points from jumps than Ando. Kim only has one really off triple of the main 5 anyway- the loop, and Kristi- the salchow, so it isnt that big a deal. It is not like Miki Ando ever was doing a triple axel or has done her quad since the dinosaurs roamed the earth either.
     
  23. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,716
    Well back to the topic, I still think Miki is a good jumper and not just ok jumper.
     
  24. sson4won

    sson4won New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7
    :confused:

    I don't want to argue about Yuna's jump here, but let me clarify this one.
    Her Salchow and Axel are good. Not saying best(I think they are best though) but good enough call her an excellent jumper.


    And I picked VDP cause when I saw this title his name just came up.:lol:
     
  25. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2009
    Messages:
    14,083
    Yu-Na's Salchow is definately not good. She doesn't achieve very much height on that jump and it just looks awkward. Even her Loop is better than her Salchow. Her Axel, however, is great.
     
  26. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    432
    Yes, her Salchow is so low. I also agree that her loop is better. She just can't do her loop simply because of injury and her body structure, but it's actually a better jump. Her axel is definitely excellent, look at all the combos she can put off of that jump.
     
  27. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    10,260
    Agreed. She won the FS today by quite a large margin, even though she was still only 5th overall. Also that 2a-3t is gorgeous and looks so easy for her, she really needs to start going for it every time.
     
  28. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,737
    Miki's TES from jumps at GPF: 49.26

    Rochette's TES from jumps at Japan Open: 41.98

    :p

    Nearly the difference of a 3axel.
     
  29. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,003
    Your point? Do you really think it's accurate to compare points from an event in early October (for which Rochette was a last minute replacement and obviously wasn't training full-out for)? :rolleyes:
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,375
    Thats nice, so why not compare just their TES from jumps of both at the Japan Open. If Rochette was not a semi retired skater who competed all season she obviously would have improved a great deal as the season went along just like everyone else has, and just like she and others always have in the past. Heck the level of the ladies so far this season even someone like Rochette would have won everything so far, unless she had a splatfest somewhere along the way.