Who is the better skater: Kwan or Cohen?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by shady82, Apr 25, 2013.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    True, I didnt mention that one though as I didnt want to mention examples where the general reason was mainly horrible judging (K&P vs B&B). The examples I mentioned it was more based on the scoring system, who was the stronger competitor, who put it together at the right times, who was able to succeed highly via meeting the rulebook or collecting points and beat people who they werent neccessarily better skaters then, and all the variables of momentum, reputation, chance, that go into results.

    Other examples would be Brian Joubert, Evan Lysacek, and to some degree Elvis Stojko. People concede they deserve their medals and achievements (other than maybe Evan to some degree) but they arent considered phenomenal skaters on par with their medal records, and are considered inferior to many who have less medals and victories than they do.
     
  2. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    OK. Maybe you're right about most of them. Many of them were before I started watching skating. I do think that consistency and competitive nerves are part of being a better skater though.
     
  3. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, JJ. You mentioned a few I was thinking of and some I'd forgotten. Here are a few more.

    Bonaly was not better than Sato despite beating her more often than not.

    Ditto for

    Bonaly and Chouinard

    Goebel and Savoie

    Hughes and Nikodinov

    Barna and Wylie

    Maurizio Margaglio and take your pick
     
  4. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    They skated much further apart, with much simpler handholds, and much simpler content and choreography as others have noted. No way in hell did they ever deserve to beat either team. I would've had B&B 2nd in 1985 and then 3rd in 86, 87, and 88. Their garish expression was a very clear attempt to distract from their lack of skating skills. I keep losing my patience whenever I watch them as all they seem to do is slash through their music in an attempt at cheap drama.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I couldnt believe all the 6.0s they got for their FD at the 87 Worlds when I thought that was their worst program of all. I would have had them 4th or 5th in the FD that year.
     
  6. taf2002

    taf2002 Texas slumlord

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    Anyone who has an opinion on Kwan vs Cohen needs to see them in person. You can't judge correctly based on TV. I remember when Sasha came on the scene I thought that she would be a serious rival to Michelle. I didn't see her in person until 2003. My sister (who knows nothing about skating) & I were at COI. Sasha skated fairly early, but right after a couple of skaters with excellent skating skills. My sister leaned over & whispered "who is she...she's not very good, is she?"

    That's because her edges were almost non-existent & she was slower than anyone else. Of course she did improve in that dept but even at Turino she was clearly the slowest of the podium-hopefuls. It is easy to get wowed by her flexibility but that's not skating. It is silly to ask who is the better skater - you can't seriously put Cohen ahead of any of her nearest competitors, much less Michelle. Better to ask which skater to you prefer to watch - that's subjective so it's just a matter of taste. For a lot of people, Sasha was the preferred attraction.

    I do give spins to Sasha but not spirals. Other than her split position, her spirals were nothing to write home about. They were wobbly & the edge quality was poor. And I take issue with some of her medals where IMO the judges were swayed by her aesthetic quality. 2003 Skate America is a glaring example. Jenny Kirk had 2 of her best programs (Chicago & Die Fledermaus) & performed flawlessly besides having skating skills that were much better than Sasha's.
     
  7. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Kwan was a great skater but Sasha was probably as great as anyone in the last 20 years except maybe Ando. Had she put it together she would have won dozens of titles. Pretty much every event from 2002-2010 was hers to lose.
     
  8. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    ...and she lost majority of the big ones. BTW 2010 US nationals was not hers to lose. She had not competed in 3 years and no longer had the technical skills.

    I liked Sasha as a performer; she was lovely to watch, but to say that her skating skills were even comparable with Michelle's is an exaggeration. To say that she was as great as anyone in the last 20 years is not only a gross exaggeration, but it is an insult to many deserving skaters (Michelle, Irina, Kristi, Yuka Sato, Chen Lu- to name some) in that era.
     
  9. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Yuka Sato a better skater than Cohen, LOL! Get real. Sato won a fluke World title when nobody showed up. The field was so devoid of most of the top skaters it should have been cancelled to begin with. The only thing she does better than Sasha is basic skating. Why was Sasha a gold medal threat in so many events and Sato not even a medal threat in any event but the non Worlds of the 94 Worlds. Chen was weak in all of spins, footwork, spirals, and didnt have high jumps or much artistry until the end of her career.
     
  10. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    Yuka Sato had superior skating skills, thus was a better SKATER than Cohen.
     
  11. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    So best skater is only about skating skills and nothing else. Are Sato, Arakawa, and Fumie Suguri the three best ever then over people like Kwan, Kim, Henie, Ito, and Witt. Get real.
     
  12. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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    All those mentioned were better skaters with better skating skills.
     
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  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Andofanatic's posts are getting more and more interesting :)
     
  14. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

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    Agreed but I'd replace the word "interesting" with the phrase "cray-cray". ;)
     
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  15. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    The only crazy thing is saying Sato is a better skater (not just basic skating which of course Sato is better but all things considered) than Cohen. Cohen atleast had a big chance to win a World or Olympic event 4 or 5 times. Sato only had one chance in a non Worlds where 70% of the top women and all the dominant favorites didnt even show up. Other than basic skating what does Sato do better.
     
  16. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    I wasn't aware that Jenny Kirk (love her webcasts!!) had skating skills that were so much better than Cohen's. I thought she was also pretty slow and her stroking was kind of short and choppy?

    BTW, if your sister knows nothing about skating, how was she able to tell that Cohen was not very good?
     
  17. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Ok not to hate on Sasha, but couldn't you say the same thing about 2006 worlds that Sasha could not even win? Every top skater was NOT there. And not only does she lose, she loses to Kimmie Meisner of all people, along with Fumie, and places 4th in the long program. If Sasha could not win what would probably been known as a "fluke" world title, how could she win one against the big guns?

    I was shocked that she could not win that competition. Literally shocked.

    During her career I always saw her as a gold medal threat, but after that competition, I came to the conclusion that she just could not win and probably really was never a true gold medal threat. She was totally a podium threat though and after 2003 was on the podium for every competition so there is something to be said for that accomplishment.
     
  18. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    ^This. My logic may be flawed but since Cohen didn't manage to win one world title and Kwan won five, it seems to me that Kwan was a better skater overall. And I agree with those who've said that Kwan's basic skating skills were far superior. Jumps were better too. Not even comparable, IMO. Cohen has many good qualities and I enjoy watching her as a professional, but in competition days, Kwan had it all over Cohen.
     
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  19. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    Jumps- Kwan
    Spins- Cohen
    Footwork- Tied
    Spirals- Cohen by a bit (Kwan wins this vs virtually everyone else but not Cohen)
    Lines, extensions, beautiful positions, and polish- Cohen by a bit (Kwan wins this vs virtually everyone else but not Cohen)
    Elegance and grace-Tied
    Musicality- Tied or Kwan by a bit
    Sophistication and Maturity- Tied
    Skating skills- Kwan
    Choreography- Tied

    So overall as skaters, excluding competitive abilities, they are pretty equal. Kwan is the much better competitor which is why she wins much more. Kind of like how Karyn Kadavy and Katarina Witt were virtual equal in skating abilities, but since Witt was the much better competitor she achieved much more.
     
  20. munow

    munow New Member

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    Cohen was able to hit pretty positions. I don't see her being so artistic other than that. Not to mention her technical abilities, both jump technique and basic skating.

    Kwan wins this by a landslide, although I'm not a fan of her either.
     
  21. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    It is mean to mock Sato for winning a weak Worlds though. The 2006 Worlds which Cohen lost was even weaker. 1994 Sato faced and beat Bonaly, Szewcenko, Chouinaurd, Markova, and Kiellmann. 2006 Cohen faced Suguri, Meissner, and a nowhere near prime level Rochette. I take 1994 easily, but Sato took her chance and won, and Cohen couldnt.
     
  22. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Just curious if Sasha was that weak how did she even achieve as much as she did. I am not doubting your perspective seeing her live, which I never have so I cant speak to that, but the way you make her sound, it is amazing she was 2nd at Worlds or Olympics with chances to win so many times.
     
  23. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    When I saw Sasha skate at 02 COI (live), it was the first time that I really noticed her edges..or their lack thereof..There was a section where she was stroking and it was quite evident. I do think in time she improved in that area.
     
  24. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    OK. I guess that is why she started placing top 2 in big events vs only top 4 or lower before that?
     
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think it was due to her having a striking style, and really improving in her deficiencies in terms of edges and speed. She probably looked like an ideal skater to the judges. I think it was telling that she went from consistently losing to Fumie Suguri when they both went out of the gate in the 2001-2002 season, and then Sasha just progressed. Fumie Suguri was definitely committed to her choreography and had some excellent musical performances, but did not improve upon her posture, positions, stretch, and overall look. To me, that's what really killed Fumie's chances of being a top gold medal contender.

    Sasha also capitalized on the health decline of Kwan, the inconsistency of Arakawa, and Irina's declining then rising then declining health.
     
  26. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    This is from the OP. So we have to drop the discussion about Sasha being unable to win the big competitions. She won USN only when Kwan did not compete.

    If we leave out the competitive aspect, and just focused on skating, Kwan still comes out ahead in my mind.

    Basic skating skills - not even close; Kwan wins
    Jumps- technique, consistency; Kwan
    Choreography - Kwan (particularly Lori's programs)
    Footwork- close but edge to Kwan because of her better basics
    Spirals- Cohen had her free leg higher but Kwan had better edge control, so give it to Kwan
    Spins- This is where Cohen has a clear win; she had interesting and faster spins

    IMO this is not even close. Kwan is so much better as a skater (and then you add the competitiveness factor!)
     
  27. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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  28. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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  29. Sparks

    Sparks Well-Known Member

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  30. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Huh? She was 4th at 02 Worlds and 4th at 03 Worlds..I have no idea what you are talking about . I was commenting on her edges.