Who has had a better career- Weir or Abbott

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by mustafinabars, Jan 13, 2013.

Who has had the best career of these two guys so far

Poll closed May 28, 2014.
  1. Johnny Weir

    159 vote(s)
    52.8%
  2. Jeremy Abbott

    142 vote(s)
    47.2%
  1. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    If you tally their gold medals won as senior skaters, they are very close, but Jeremy comes out slightly ahead. Abbott has 8 golds and Weir has 7 golds. Jeremy won a Finlandia Trophy while Johnny finished 2nd in that event. Abbott won 3 GP events plus the GPF while Weir won 4 GP events. Both have 3 US Championship titles. Jeremy has 18 medals total as a senior while Johnny has 21 medals total.

    I discounted team events and sectionals competitions as seniors. A junior career is incomparable since Jeremy never competed internationally during that stage of his career.
     
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  2. centerpt1

    centerpt1 Active Member

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    Weir (to date) has the best career-I'm looking at World and Olympic placings. They are (so far) even at 3 National Championships each. Two of Jeremy's Nationals were won with huge point margins, but that still doesn't make up for the lack of a World medal.

    Jeremy is the better technical and artistic skater.

    Weir has more of a Fan following.
     
  3. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    Why didn't Abbott compete internationally as a junior? According to wiki, he won the 2005 US Junior title.

    I think the juniors should count. Weir started skating very late, so the fact that he was able to win junior worlds four years after he took up the sport is extremely impressive.

    I think Weir probably has more natural talent than Abbott (although the latter is very talented too), given how quickly he picked up skating and developed excellent basics. He also has a beautiful sense of posture and bodyline for someone without serious ballet training and he had good jump technique in the day. What Weir lacked were good training habits and that he didn't have the drive to go for the difficulty in his programs. Abbott really pushes himself with very difficult footwork and transitions, the quad, and harder jump placements (like the back to back 3axel this year).

    I have to go with Weir... a World medal trumps any other medal except Olympic, which Abbott doesn't have.
     
  4. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    Abbott won junior men when he was 19, so he aged out and was sent to a Nebelhorn instead. He didn't qualify for nationals that year, but the year after he "made up for lost time" by placing 4th at his first senior nationals.

    I agree that Weir is probably more talented than Abbott. Jeremy's consistent 3A didn't come easily to him, for instance. Of course, once he has had it, he has it.
     
  5. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Weir is more talented than Abbott in the absolutely sense. Some people PICK UP skating very quickly and are able to learn jumps fairly early on in their skating career, and Johnny is definitely extremely talented in that respect. But that doesn't mean these people will go FURTHER when everyone has reached a certain level. They may just plateau and forever remain at that level. I think Jeremy is naturally more effortless and versatile with his blades and body movement, and responds to music at a more advanced level than Johnny.
     
  6. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

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    I agree with that. Maybe instead of "natural talent," aptitude would be a better word. It's amazing how quickly Weir picked everything up, but no, that doesn't mean he ultimately became a better skater than anyone else in the end. He underachieved in a sense, because if someone can learn the basics so quickly, then you would expect them to go beyond the basics after a few more years. IMO, Weir never really did (in terms of choreography). He was very one note in his style, all of his programs looked the same, and he did not challenge himself with different styles of movement, which Abbott does (flamenco and swing and modern and etc). And with the jumps too - Weir got that gorgeous triple axel right away, yet was never able to move beyond that to a good quad. I think Abbott probably has had to work much harder for everything he achieved, although as I said, he does have a lot of natural ability.
     
  7. jlai

    jlai Title-less

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    I remember Frank C once saying that Johnny is the most talented male skater (in the US or the world? Not sure).

    I attribute Jeremy's improvement to hard work. I remember Tom Dickson saying that Jeremy had a great run of his blades but had trouble balancing (forgot the exact words), so he gave Jeremy figures exercise to do (outside 8?), and how Jeremy still did them as he waited for his name to be called to the ice.
     
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  8. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Exactly. It is an exaggeration to say you must peak to win an individual Grand Prix. In the past silvers have gone to gentlemen who never break top ten at Worlds. The GPF is a test run for Worlds/Olympics. It demonstrates a skater's potential for greatness (Czisny, Abbott, Sandhu, Cohen), but GP hardware by itself isn't as significant as pulling off a medal at Worlds/Olympics.
     
  9. apatinar

    apatinar Active Member

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    A world medal will always beat out a gold at a competition that was started only 17 or so years ago..
     
  10. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

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    I'd say Weir by a hair, but he had 10 seasons of competing senior (2000-01 through 2009-10...not counting 2012-13), and Jeremy has had only 8 so far (2005-06 through 2012-13). I'd be tempted to put Jeremy ahead if he wins another National title.

    I agree that a World medal of any color > GPF title.

    Given their respective level of competition, who has had more realistic chances for Olympic and World medals? In other words, which one was better at capitalizing on their opportunities?
     
  11. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    Johnny is an international star, Jeremy has fans mostly in US. And I don't think, that Jeremy is better artistic skater as Johnny. No. Johnny has more natural talent, like Jeremy.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2013
  12. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IMO, Johnny is looking for elegance, but doesn't try to understand the music, and Jeremy is more in the sense of the music. So, IMO, Jeremy is a more artistic skater. ;)
     
  13. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    No.

    Stéphane Lambiel and Evgeni Plushenko both lost their eligibility by participating in non-sanctioned events in 2010. Plushenko, of course, sought and obtained reinstatement, but Lambiel hasn't. Since the ISU hasn't changed the pertinent rule since then, it could happen again.
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Jeremy's Grand Prix final performances in 2009 would have won Worlds especialy going in with the clout as U.S #1 (while the U.S #2 who was 3rd at Nationals ended up winning Worlds). Jeremy's National performances in 2010 would have won gold at the Olympics and silver at Worlds. Thus I would say the answer to that is obvious, Jeremy is the one who blew more opportunites. Johnny didnt even have that many, a chance at a medal at the 2006 Olympics maybe, and the bronze he did win at the 2008 Worlds. A chance at the bronze at the 2005 Worlds, but he was injured. I would say for the most part he did as well as he was going to. Of course blowing your opportunities is not a positive thing anyway.
     
  15. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

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    They are so different.
    In terms of careers, I'd say it's a wash, more or less. So far.
    In terms of a following and legacy...
    Johnny has a bigger following. He is also more about being a persona on ice- somebody with beauty, line, elegance, and sass. Johnny expresses himself, and does it admirably. I think the sheer fact that he is so admired in Russia while being openly gay and married is a tremendous legacy, one of many.
    Jeremy is much more about experimenting with choreography and serving the music. It is no accident that so many skating pros ( John Kerr, Kimberly Navarro, Kim Yu-Na and Elena Vodorezova immediately come to mind) go out of their way to express their admiration of Jeremy's art. For my part, I love him to bits. Skater's skater, musician's skater, less about personality and more about variety and complexity of expression.
    They are both quite outstanding though, well beyond their medal count:)
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2013
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    ^^ ITA, dinakt!
     
  17. nubka

    nubka Well-Known Member

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    I voted for Johnny because he had his own reality show and is much more well known to the public... :D
     
  18. ciocio

    ciocio Active Member

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    Plushenko didn't participate in non-sanctioned events, he lost his eligibility because Russian Federation withdrew the permission they had give him to participate in some KOI shows.
    Skaters which participate in non-sanctioned events can't apply for reinstatement.
     
  19. LilJen

    LilJen Well-Known Member

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    Well said!
     
  20. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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  21. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    For now Weir but if Abbott wins his 4th U.S title then him. The legacy of both is mostly centered around their U.S Nationals legacy, as both have little to no international legacy of any sort. Abbott already is better than Weir at the thing both of their careers are most based around, both 3 U.S titles, but Abbott beat Lysacek at his peak in 2 of them, so another U.S title for Abbott would make it easily him I think.
     
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  22. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    To me they're both amazing, each in his own way. I enjoy both their skating styles (which I can't say about all skaters!). It's a very difficult choice to make in this case. They both still achieved more than most people, even if they didn't win World or Olympic gold.

    Sometimes I think Abbott might still win a Worlds or even Olympics, you never know what happens, ice is slippery after all as the cliché but very true saying is. Then I remember the Japanese skaters and Plushenko and some of the European skaters even and think, well, perhaps one of the other medals if he's flawless, but maybe not gold.

    Both Abbott and Weir have impressed me mostly with their skating styles and gave us all something for every mood we're in, movie suspense, drama on ice, fun skating, simple elegent skating, etc. And the best part is that they're not done skating yet. I'm looking forward to all their future skating, no matter what their results will be or have been.
     
  23. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Abbott is a better skater than Weir, yet Weir has achieved more, so while Jeremy's competitive results are somewhat disappointing for a skater of his calliber, Johnny's aren't as much, because he wasn't as prone to folding under pressure.
     
  24. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Well, I guess it depends on how you define a career. I much much much prefer Abbott. Had I skated competitively, I would rather realize my skating on the level of Jeremy Abbott than being a National Enquirer type who coasted like Weir. I was quite taken with Weir at Cleveland 2000 Nats even though he totally blew the LP. He was clearly a standout. I enjoyed his 2002 performances and was happy when he won in 2004. But then his skating just stagnated, his artistic sensibilty was more just a shock value and superficial choreo. Let's just say that if I had to choose from I would much rather realize myself skatingwise as Jeremy Abbott than Weir. YMMV. Abbott's 2010 Nats program would have won Olympic gold, it was blissful. Weir was NEVER in contention for Oly gold. Then Abbott bombed, but his skating is really what everyone should strive for. Weir? Not really unless you think Lady Gaga programs deserve high PCS.

    It was sort of would you rather have been Bowman or Wylie? I'd rather have been Wylie, though Bowman was more successful, at least as an amateur minus Paul's Oly medal. Like Weir, I found Bowman very superficial in his movements and musical interpretation. But like with Abbott, I always thought that Wylie had some brains backing up his skating, that there was plenty of thought and nuance.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2013
  25. sadya

    sadya Active Member

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    Interesting comparing those situations. Perhaps you're right. Personally, I enjoyed both of those too, I loved the skating of Bowman as much as that of Wylie. I do think Bowman had amazing skating skills though, even though the focus on his personality on ice (and off ice) took the attention away sometimes of what he was doing on his blades.

    It's great to have many different types of great skaters at the same time, it makes the competition more interesting and entertaining. I remember downloading a fluff peace about the different personalities of Bowman and Wylie. They showed Bowman relaxing and hanging out while Wylie was studying and working hard. They said something like 'every mother wants her daughter to be with Wylie while every daughter wants to be with Bowman', the words were different of course. It was a long time ago since I watched the fluffs and interviews from that era. I remember Browning once saying that when he first saw Bowman skating, he thought he'd never beat him.
     
  26. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    ^^^
    THIS.

    Johnny has had the greater success overall. And a reality show to go with it!
     
  27. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Jeremy also did not beat Johnny last time they went head to head.
     
  28. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    But Alex Forrest, Johnny Weir was in second place after the sp at 2006 Olympics behind Plushy, and Johnny should arguably have been in front of Plushy (but Plush had the longevity and rep status, plus more political backing obviously). Certainly, Johnny skated more smoothly with exquisite ride-out on his jumps and much better choreography than Plushenko. It was a given that Plushenko was going to win gold at that Olympics though. Still, Johnny actually was at the least, "in contention" for Olympic gold in 2006. He "missed the bus" and didn't skate well in the fp, as is well known, but that doesn't mean he "was NEVER in contention for Olympic gold."

    Also, Johnny skated very well at 2010 Olympics and arguably should have been in contention for at least the podium, but his political stock which was never very high (domestically or internationally), had dropped so low by then. He still had the talent, but they locked him into sixth place even though he skated better than at least two guys placed in front of him in both sp and fp. In addition, of course, Johnny was in contention for gold after the sp at 2008 Worlds, and he was also in contention for the podium at 2004 and 2005 Worlds.
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldnt say Johnny was a gold contender in 2006. Plushenko was the only gold contender really. If anyone had a very outside shot to beat him if Plushenko made mistakes it was Lambiel or Joubert, nobody else. Yes he was 2nd in the short program with one of the only clean shorts of the night so kudos to him, but he was 10 points back of Plushenko, so that isnt in contention for gold in that sense either. Weir never had any possible hope of winning the actual gold medal either in 2006 or 2010, and I would concur he was definitely not in contention for it. He did have a shot to medal in 2006, along with about 8 other guys.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
  30. judiz

    judiz Well-Known Member

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    Johnny definitely had the most natural talent I've ever seen in a skater, you don't wake up one day at age 12, put on skates for the first time and teach yourself how to do an axle in your basement and in a cornfield and then four years later become the world junior champion.

    I really have to wonder how far Johnny would had gone had he had a coach from the beginning, who made him do full run throughs and spend more than three hours a day on the ice.