Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 23, 2010.
I totally agree!
I wasn't defending the rules as much as I was giving an explanation as to why I believe that B&A deserved a medal and IMO should have won the gold. Laugh all you want, that won't change anyone else opinion.
As I said, B&A are not the only team or single skater(s) to benefitting from "code whoring." Heck the beloved D&W with Igor's bland but cleverly choreographed program code whored their way through (IMO) one of the worst FD's of the season. Oh, I forgot that since D&W are a favorite team people are talking about POTO as if it's an artistic masterpiece.
The top two men finishers in Vancouver also did the same thing. Plushenko did it previously four years ago when he won the gold in Torino. Actually at least half the field in all the disciplines no longer bother with actual choreography in between the required jumps and footwork sequences. Yet it's B&A who often get singled out as lacking.
I never stated I agreed or loved the rules; actually I'm disappointed that the current rules seem to discourage creativity and innovation while they encourage placing the focus on connecting the elements with little in between.
We can agree that K&N's 2008 FD wasn't all that great as a competitive piece. But for some reason that season many felt that Jana and Sergei were wonderful artists deserving of a medal. As I recall many were hoping and/or predicting they would actually win worlds.
Ok, sorry, perhaps "defending the rules" was a wrong expression, my point was, I have nothing against couples winning by FD, if the FD really stands out and makes the highlight of the night, which was in the case we discuss here.
Also, never said POTO was an artistic masterpiece. But Samson and Dalilah surely was. And yet, even their POTO was faaar better than anything B/A did in the past few years. JMHO, though.
yeah, well, that's exactly what I'm talking about. How could they possibly be called artists after presenting this kind of a dance? I mean, seriously, if anything besides ISU new crazy rules has ever been able to literally kill ice dancing, it's dances like K/N's 2008 FD. That program was about everything but dancing. For me it was just tasteless. Again, it's JMO and I know my words are harsh and mean, but that dance was really a torture for me.
exactly my thoughts, only I wasn't able to put them down in words properly
Hmmm...seems to me most of us thought POTO was quite a technical masterpiece, although some of us loved it as artistic as well. And since artistic expression is very much subjective, to each his own.
Excuse me, but your bitterness is showing.
We are going way off the topic here but K/N presented very well the idea and the music in Night at the bald mountain and yes, it was somehow according to the new rules.Not to mention that the costumes were also bold but clever choice
BTW D/S also skated to this music in 1999, of course it was combine with Adagio by Yanni and to be honest it was not the best interpretation but this is just MHO.
OTAH I also don't like the way Ice Dance is going but when it comes to the new rules i prefer to see athletic lifts and tricks in dances like K/N 2008 FD instead of watching ballroom music with flips and twists over the sholder .Now this is what i see as tastless.
Well,we all are looking with different eyes but i don't think we have to turn ourselves into a crusaders defending our favorite figure skaters honor against everyone who has another opinion. Yet,this is what most of the fans do and i admit that i've done it myself too
Now let the voting continue .
It's also possible to be a sore winner as well. Your snottiness and passive/aggressive side is coming out. Again.
Actually I've been very quiet about my feelings on D&W for the very reason stated above. Disliking anyone (or the programs of anyone) who defeated B&A won't be taken at face value. Bitterness my arse. I haven't liked POTO for D&W since they debuted it and said as much long before B&A debuted their own programs. If I was truly being bitter rolleyes: ) I would have included all areas of D&W's skating including the Bollywood OD (which I went on record as listing as one of my favorites all season).
I keep making the mistake of defending B&A for some strange reason. I'm done. The season is over and Tanith and Ben are officially retired. End of story.
Since going against the crowd can be fun sometimes, especialy when you have valid reasons to believe you are right.
Don't worry, give D/W another season or two and then suddenly everyone will be trashing them, saying they are overrating, critiquing their lack of technique and moving on to a new young "exciting" team...
except, B/A have never been exciting, even when "fresh" and young, at least not for me So, I cannot speak for the crowd but I don't see myself moving on from D/W that easily. I don't give up on my favourites just like that
And hey, I know everything about going against the crowd. You're talking to a girl who cannot pass V/M's Mahler FD without ironically laughing at some elements, with a severe toothache caused by the sugar put in this dance And then, I went against the crowd loving D/S Piano more than V/M Umbrellas in 2008. So yeah, I'm pretty much an expert
B/A were fresh andexciting from 2002 to 2005 and D/W really made me think about Tanith and ben from this period of time. I think their coaches didn't know how to handle their situation post world medal, their program were never rigth or okey (i don't know how to explain it) I do hope thta the same thing doesn't happen to FSU sweet hearts.
so agree with your second paragraph
I don't know, maybe I just don't remember them too well from that period, ice dancing went completely unexciting in general to me then, after A/P, D/V, L/A's retirement, so i didn't really pay attention to it (I know - I lost much of D/S but I only fell for them in 2006), but well, I watched it and B/A failed to make me excited about themselves or ice dance in general, so...
btw, I love your supporting of my negative VM comments
I can understand what you saying but I still think they were fresh and exciting they were so charismatic and had a powerfull skating, seriouly, what a heel happen to them?!
I remember the Elvis program too!
It was a lot of fun, but at least in Lalique, it was somewhat sloppily executed. I thought their style back then had not matured, especially with the certain lacks in finish, such as with Tanith's unpointed toes. It was clear that they were not yet as sophisticated as teams such as G/G or D/S. But starting from the 06/07 season, I started enjoying their programs more, and seeing a more mature approach to their programs. My favorite programs by them were their Amelie and Chopin programs, even though Amelie was not skated to its potential.
IMO Elvis is probably wrong program to be critiquing Tanith's toes: a balletically pointed toe in a rock n roll number is so out of place as to be
Completely not in the character of the music/dance.
Now Chopin, let fly. Her toes should be balletically pointed there, IMO.
Delobel. She won the grand prix final, Europeans, and worlds. No big titles at all for Belbin & Agosto. I don't even care they couldn't skate Europeans as there is no year they would have won it anyway. Big titles over small medals anyday. Delobel also would have 100% for sure defended her world title in 2013 without her fluke exhibition injury at the grand prix final so really has 2 world titles, and would have atleast medaled in Vancouer without her pregnancy.
I think B/A were robbed at '08 Worlds (deserved Bronze), '09 Worlds (deserved the win), and Vancouver (deserved bronze), but I do think they were held up to Bronze at '07 Worlds. Not sure about Torino.
That said, I vote for them in this poll
It is kind of silly to give any extra credit to B&A in this comparision based on wuzrobbed when D&S were by far the most wuzrobbed team of that whole era. I presume you don't remember the career of D&S well but as I do I can safely guarantee that however many medals you think B&A were robbed of, D&S were robbed of 3 times as many in their career.
FWIW I don't even think B&A were robbed in any of those events you referenced either, but you are entitled your opinion.
Being a little melodramatic, aren't you? 3x as many wuz-robbed situations for D/S? That would mean that they were wuz-robbed around 9x in World and Olympic competitions? Worlds and Olympics were the competitions I was referencing for B/A. So, is that the case?
Well you even admit B&A were gifted in 2007 (and at the expense of D&S it turns out) so even if your times of B&A being robbed were correct, D&S would only need to have been 6 times to be 3x as much. Considering DelSchoes were probably robbed of a higher placing at every worlds/Olympics from 2004-2007 atleast (which already makes 5), and outside 2004 worlds of a medal, 3x is not an exagerration or far fetched at all. As it is I don't agree at all B&A were robbed each of the times you mentioned, and I doubt most would agree they were all 3 of those times either. Some might think they were 1 or 2 of those times only, but probably few would agree with you all 3. 2008 they had a huge fall in the CD, and as they only deserved 3rd in the OD and FD at most, giving them the bronze would be ignorning their CD fall and making it cost nothing. 2009 I thought if anyone was robbed of the gold it was Davis & White who didn't even medal which was crazy. 2010 Domnina & Shabalin won their bronze entirely by their CD win, and Faiella & Scali were probably better than both teams in the OD and FD outside of reputation points anyway.
Regardless it is clear to anyone who followed the careers of both DelSchoes were robbed by the judges much more often and far more glaringly than B&A. B&A were even thought by many to be overscored often in 2005-2007. There are many who wouldn't have placed them as high in numerous competitions those years, and think they were a political tool to dump the Bulgarians (and to a lesser extent Delobel & Schoenfelder) to help Navak & Kostomarov be more dominant by driving a wedge between their real competition. So if you pick B&A which is fine it should be based on results only (like their Olympic silver, multiple world medals, multiple grand prix final medals). Picking them based on a couple times you think they were robbed in a comparision to the 2nd most underscored team of the last 20 years is just funny. It is like picking someone over Drobiazko & Vanagas (the most underscored team of the last 20 years) based on times you think the other team should have gotten an additional medal, moreso than based on results.
I don't disagree that they D/S were robbed. I don't get your math, but whatever. Anyway, we have a difference of opinion here -
In 2008, there is no way even a fall in the CD should've kept them off the podium and behind Khokhlova / Novitsky, whose skating skills were far from the best, but were boosted by the Russian Fed. as the #1 Russian team.
In 2009, Domnina / Shabalin were boosted despite errors in their FD and IIRC, there was only a small point difference between them and B/A.
I would say that B/A being relegated to #2 US pair by the time of Vancouver contributed more to their 4th place position than being out skated by Domnina / Shabalin. No way was an Olympic judging panel going to have an all North American podium in Ice Dance at the Olympics.
Olympic silver = world title
World silver = grand prix final title
World silver (the 2nd of B&A) = European title
Hard to say which had better career. I voted D&S since they had more memorable programs which will be remembered longer while B&A with the emergence of Davis & White are almost forgotten even in the U.S.
Imagine had Delobel & Schoenfelder been scored properly, and she not gotten her fluke exhibition shoulder bust and unplanned pregnancy in 2009. Their resume would probably read:
3 world golds (2005, 2008, 2009)
1 Olympic Gold, 1 Olympic silver (2006, 2010)
3 world bronzes (2004, 2006, 2007)
4 European titles (2007, 2008, 2009, 2010)
What if game does not favor B&A vs D&S. B&A should thank their lucky stars DelSchoes had that injury at the grand prix final before the LA worlds, as they would have cruised to the title by probably like 10 points that particular year otherwise. They had crushed Domnina & Shabalin by a large point margin at the grand prix final, making it clear how easily they would have won those worlds. B&A had their final chance of a big gold, and were secure getting a medal because of D&S's absence, where with D&S there they might not even medal, let alone be in running for gold.
Many thought Delobel & Schoenfelder were a better team than Navka & Kostomarov during their dominance, and that Belbin & Agosto were just a placeholder to help protect N&K.
Yes you are right D&W were overall better than B&A at the 2009 worlds easily. I dont see how it is clear B&A were better than Russian D&S except sentiment. I thought D&S were better in CD, B&A in OD, and FD no difference, so between them was fine either way. I laugh the idea B&A were so robbed of 2009 worlds. D&W would have beaten them if they had more reputation, Russian D&S were not clearly worse and arguably deserved their win over them, and French D&S would have crushed them all and won easily that year without her fluke shoulder injury at the grand prix final and everyone knows it. They also benefited greatly from V&M's injuries that year which left them very subpar at worlds (and gifted to even medal), and Khohklova & Novitski were just totally dumped at worlds by the judges after a great season after coming in expected to be above B&A too. So B&A unlucky to win silver, please. They should thank their lucky stars so much went right for them to win silver and nearly gold at those worlds, when their best years of opportunity (2005-2007) and highest standing in the field under normal circumstances were long past.
I agree with everything you've said. BA - pleasant, but DS on a completely different level IMHO.
I just can't believe B/A are leading this poll.
D/S should have won the Euros in 2008 to add to their 2007 title.
They should have had an Olympic medal in 2006 & maybe even in 2010.
Their choreography was always original & strong.
Don't get me wrong B/A were fantastic at times but to say they were robbed of a World medal in 2008 when they fell badly in the CD is kinda crazy.
They even had a stutter on their step sequence in 2006 during their FD in Turin.
D/S were World Champions B/A were not.
I would have had D/S above B/A in the 2006 OG's.
Why vote for B/A ?, they never even won the GPF.
Delobel & Schoenfelder were way undermarked their whole careers, and B&A overmarked most of theirs, minus the very end where B&A were scored about fair, and Delobel & Schoenfelder still won big titles like worlds, grand prix final, and Europeans which B&A never won any of. Delobel & Schoenfelder.
Plus as has been said D&S would have won the 2009 worlds easily and won silver or gold in Vancouver without a couple fluke occurences that came up. They were really on a roll and dominating by the time of the 2009 season grand prix final before worlds.
Delobel & Schoenfeldner by far.
They have a world title which is bigger than Olympic silver, the top achievement of both teams.
They have a grand prix final title which is bigger than a world silver, the 2nd best achievement of both teams.
They have a European title which is bigger than a 2nd world silver, the 3rd best achievement of both teams.
They also have way more memorable programs and a bigger impact. B&A aren't remembered today, even in the U.S. Blumberg & Seibert, Bourne & Kraatz, and Wilson & McCall are more remembered than them today and those are 80s teams.