Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 23, 2010.
Boring discussions, never
How is a European title better than an Olympic medal and why is that mentioned? I'm surprised no one has mentioned B&A's many US Nationals titles.
who said it was? as far as I know, everybody has been comparing World title to Olympic silver so far. I believe the European title was mentioned as a "title", meaning a big victory in comparison to B/A's many medals but without the golds (at major competitions).
Now let me ask you a question - how is a US National title better than a French title?
CNTR-F is your friend.
You obviously haven't read a "Kwan vs. Not a US Lady" thread.
Just like me and for the same reason.
Since the years they did win there was no other top U.S team. It is not like a U.S ladies title any of those years. It would have been different had they beaten Davis & White to win in either 2009 or 2010 of course. I tend to agree their U.S dance titles arent much different than a French dance titles. Delobel & Schoenfelder would have easily won U.S Nationals all the same years Belbin & Agosto did as well.
Nope, I haven't. So I still don't understand what you mean, you know. But I guess it would be just too hard for you to give me a proper response and just explain what you mean, huh? Anyway, I agree with judgejudy27 on that one - D/S would have won US nationals easily in the years when B/A won them.
When it comes to the womens I saw U.S Nationals during the Kwan era as in general on par with Europeans. When it comes to dance U.S Nationals except for this year with B&A and D&W going head to head is just another Nationals.
Oh, ok, I think I get the point now. And yes, it's not the same with ladies and dance. Actually I think France has an awesome "school" of ice dancers so I really think the US title (from the era before the in-form D/W ) is quite comparable with the French title.
Yep, but that particular night at the Olympic is sooooo much more pressure, happening only once every four years, with the whole world watching--certainly many times more people watching than those who watch the world championships. Plus, it's the one event that winners can really be catapulted into superstars--or not.
I'm sure Kurt Browning would trade all his World titles for an Olympic gold. Talk about a skater who was worthy of an Olympic medal!
Think of other winter sports--I recognize some of the Olympic winners of snowboarding, skiing events, luge, etc., but I honestly have no idea who won what in those respective sports' world championships, or how many times... Not to put down a worlds win--it's a great accomplishment--but I don't think it comes close to Olympic pressure. JMO.
I dont think Browning would trade all his World titles for an Olympic Gold. I think he might trade 2 of them for 1 Olympic Gold though. I think he might trade 1 for a non gold Olympic medal. Only he knows the answer for sure. I am of the belief the Olympics are definitely bigger than a Worlds, but they also arent the be-all-and-end-all of the sport some make it out to be.
I love and admire both teams. I will say that I think that Isabelle & Olivier were under marked at so many World Championships (4th place finishes ...), so I was ecstatic when they won Worlds in 2008. Re: Tanith & Ben, I felt they should have won worlds in 2009 (Meryl & Charlie should have been on that World podium with them and Tessa & Scott). Meryl & Charlie were great at US nationals (saw them live) and I thought were even better at last year's Worlds. This year, Tanith & Ben should have been back on the Olympic podium instead of Domnina & Shabalin (nothing personal against Dominina & Shabalin - I just feel they have been over marked for years).
Whatever the case, I am grateful for all the success that both teams have had internationally.
As for the people mentioning B/A's Olympic Silver Medal:
I'm not saying that B/A didn't deserve their medal, but D/S deserved a medal as well and they had a much better FD than B/A in that competition...
In my opinion, this is truly a toss-up.
What I'm going to saying is what everyone agrees upon, but Delobel/Schoenfelder have the advantage of the major titles (except for the Olympics), while Belbin/Agosto had the consistent high rankings and "revolutionized" NA ice dancing, though not with the major titles. I think it's difficult to say which team had a stronger career.
Going off topic, I do agree that Delobel/Schoenfelder have had to fight for their places a lot longer. While their skating skills, lifts, and innovation are at the top, I think their relative lack of expression gave judges/spectators a reason to undermark/underrate them. We can interpret it as subtlety or as their 'style', but I did think that their relatively solemn style weakened their programs especially before their big move up the rankings in the 03/04 season.
Their continual 4th/5th place finishes from 2005 and on must have been frustrating to them and to their fans as well, but I think some of their placements were justified. For example, their FD was relatively lackluster in the 2006 WC, especially compared to the performances of D/L, D/V, and D/S. And they didn't have a strong OD to back them up.
I know what I said earlier seems against D/S, because I think that overall they have been underrated. But severe underscoring, in my book, is relatively rare. Even Matt Savoie, IMO, wasn't undermarked as much as people say.
B&A they weren't robbed at the Olympics in 2006.
In 2006?? 2010 rather?
Imagine if Dominina/Shablin had not been over-marked these past few years, and Belbin/Agosto's resume read like the following:
5 US golds, 4 US silvers
1 World Gold, 1 World Silver, 2 World Bronze
1 Olympic Silver, 1 Olympics Bronze
I believe they've had a more successful career even with their current resume, but a world title and two Olympic medals would have made it indisputable, I believe...
which one, 2009? they didn't deserve that gold either. Both top two places were like a practical joke for me. Meryl and Charlie so deserved to win then.
LOL, I agree with you !
So do I !!
I like D&S, but I'd go with B&A.They were able to sustain a long and successful career together, even if they never won a major title, and they're Olympic silver medalists. There's also that small thing they did where they made NA ice dancing relevant. Teams like D&W would be competing in a very different arena if B&A hadn't come first (I'm not saying that they wouldn't have made it, just that B&A were the first US team in a long time to be well-respected by the international dance community and therefore opened up some doors along the way).
Partly I'd say you were right, but I think the team that really did this was Silverstein/Pekarek. A shame they only had one senior season - but they made the judges look again at American ice dance and Sphilband dancers and I think helped pave the way for the reception B/A got.
I like D/S for being the better dancers, but would have to give this one to B/A for the attention they garnered throughout their careers, their medals earned, etc. Wheras D/S to me had more memorable programs and they were a more complete team, they also got extremely unlucky (06 olympics, 07 worlds). I agree that S/P were the ones who originally got the ball rolling for US dance, but I also think that the longevity of B/A also opened some doors along the way for their successors. Of course they earned more medals than D/S and an olympic medal so I guess this would mean they had a better career.
Even to this day I cringe when I think about the top two teams that won with those sets of programs, in a pre-Olympic year. Wow. (Even though i think Domshabs did do enough to win overall) Err....let's hope ice dance at the world championships never comes to that again.
I vote for Belbin & Agosto. I love this team..
I voted for D/S, not just because they're the most recent team since Rakhama/Kokko to make my all-favorites list, but because they were innovative and stretched themselves technically and artistically as much as anyone during the time they competed, except for the very beginning of their career. They had a coach for most of their career who didn't try to shoehorn them into a box, and their material was copied by other camps. They did a remarkable job of adapting to IJS after having spent more than half of their career competing under 6.0.
I've always wondered what happened to DelShoes' "Carnival in Venice" FD post Skate America. I could never put my finger on it, the changes didn't seem all that drastic yet the dance never came across as well (to me) as it did when Isabelle and Olivier initially debuted it. It also didn't help that the new costumes introduced in Torino were (again IMO) too heavy/overly dramatic and in particular Isabelle's dress was unflattering. Whenever I want to watch that program I always pull out my Skate America tape unless I'm watching to check for speed, performance or mistakes for conversation purposes.
DelShoes skated their OD well in Torino but ITA that it wasn't great.
I always felt it was DenStavs who were cheated out of a medal in 2006. Yes, they made mistakes in the OD performance but their CD and FD were so good they should have helped Albena and Max onto the podium. I still feel that DenStavs should have won the FD. I would have placed them, N&K and B&A on the podium leaving G&G (as much as I loved them) off.
Against my better judgement.....
I don't understand why people insist on ignoring the two other segments of the competition at 2009 Worlds. I agree that D&W should have finished higher in the FD in L.A. but because of the CD and OD (the rules do not allow for throwing out the first two segments with the FD winner deciding the champion) they would not have won the overall title even had they won the FD. And rightfully so. D&W made mistakes in the OD and they were marked properly in the CD.
B&A like it or not in the first two portions (CD and OD) and while the performance level for the FD was quite on par with the CD and OD they still did well enough to have deserved the overall title. B&A's programs may not have been artistic masterpieces (an understatement) but since when has that made a difference as of late not only in icedancing but in the other three disciplines as well? Lately we've seen a glut of medalists (including the champions) rely on working the system too add up points; basically connecting the jumps/footwork sequences. B&A did that in 2009 and this is the one time I feel that Tanith and Ben finally did well enough to win the title. B&A wouldn't have been the first team to win a title based on the strength of only two parts of their overall competition.
Heck, if others implode as they did during the OD in Torino, even having an excellent performance in the OD (as B&A did) or FD could be enough to propell any team onto the podium. Some may not like that system but that's how it works.
Back to DelShoes, sometimes I do wonder about the judging and the fan opinions. IMO D&S were excellent in practically every other area. Should just one thing (the lack of an emotional connection between the partners; Isabelle did show expression for most of DelShoes' programs) really be enough to have kept them from winning more medals? Especially since Isabelle and Olivier really didn't skate to romantic/passionate FD's all that often.
I completely agree about Isabelle's costume in Torino. While D/S had beautiful coustumes that suited their lines perfectly for most of their programs, Isabelle's dress turned out to have the complete opposite effect for this performance (and also for "The Piano" in the 07/08 season, which really distracted me from the actual program).
As a disclaimer, I may show some bias in judging the 2006 Olympics because of my annoyance over the competitors' poor execution of performances, as they were just adjusting to CoP. I never 'got' N/K and B/A this years, and I thought their placements at the Olympics had more to do with politics than with anything else. I even thought G/G could have placed above them, especially since IMO they had the best OD that year, and their FD wasn't as horrible as most people thought. The French and the Bulgarians both did well enough for the podium as well. The Lithuanians had my favorite FD, but it probably shouldn't get the highest score.
Looking closely at their past rankings, I do think DelShoes should usually have been around 2 places higher than their actual rankings. An exception to that would be 2003, when they skated a poor CD, and their OD and FD were both a step down from the previous season. If Faiella/Scali had skated their FD cleanly that year, one could make a good case that they deserved 9th.
I also felt that their win at the 2008 Worlds was more of a reward for their patience and endurance with past unfair judging, rather than for their performance. They were slower and sloppier than usual in their OD and FD, for example, while Virtue/Moir and (IMHO) Khokhlova/Novitski delivered more strongly.
I agree with Carmen about the 2009 Worlds especialy. I dont understand people who say V/M and D/W should have finished 1-2 there. V/M had a quite bad OD in that event where they were rightfully placed 6th and while their CD and FD were very strong they werent really the best in any dance there either. D/W were not even close to the best in either the CD or OD. D/W probably had the best FD and V/M the 2nd or 3rd best but their final placings were correct. The only possible changes I would have made to the final results are B/A winning overall over DomShabs and not sure on 3rd place either.
but apparently they do allow throwing out the last two segments with the CD winner deciding the champion... I know this particular case (2010 Euros) does not have anything to do with our topic here, but this kind of defending the rules just makes me laugh...
I think in some cases a strong FD could be enough to award a couple with an overall win. I mean, wasn't it the point of the new system - leaving an open chance to still fight for your places in FD, rather than having everything set and decided from CD through the whole event, like in the old one? but anyway, I'd still prefer champions with one extraordinary dance and two a bit weaker ones, than with three "fine" but boring performances that don't even have any highlights for you to admire. And then, DW's FD was so much better than any other in LA that it at least should have won them the first place in this segment and well, I'd have given them gold cause there was noone else I could think of who really deserved to be called a world champion then. And VM were very weak for them at that competition, I still can't believe they still won a medal...
And about Isabelle's dresses - her best Piano dress was the first one, the one she used in GP series. The one from Euros was too simple and at worlds everything was overdone, not only the dress, also the changes they made in the dance itself. But I still loved it and cannot even imagine anyone prefering K/N's "thing" (I can't even call it a dance, sorry )
Apparently , many people prefered K/N's FD and it was hell of a dance compared to the other top two dances ,maybe not so well skated but it had the "WOW" and But you have every right to prefer D/S .
Maybe against my better judgement too but
Out of curiosity, what mistakeS [plural] are you talking about? I saw one slight mistake on the twizzle - it looked from my camera angle like a slight unbalancing from Charlie on the end of the twizzle. Apart from that they seemed clean to me - much cleaner than both V/M and D/S - and much faster too. They seemed from TV like the fastest team there. Speed used to count for something.
They were severely undermarked in OD [as were K/N - I guess that is what comes of being the second team ] , and both V/M and D/S were way over-marked [the first team bonus? ]. With all the mistakes in the elements and the general sloppiness there is no way they deserved positive GOE values or such high PCS marks.
If the OD marks had been based on the actual skating, the gap between B/A and D/W would have been far smaller than it was, and D/W's clearly superior FD performance would have won gold. IMHO.