Who had better career- Delobel & Schoenfelder or Belbin & Agosto

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, May 23, 2010.

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Better career- Delobel & Schoenfelder or Belbin & Agosto

  1. Delobel & Schoenfelder

    33.2%
  2. Belbin & Agosto

    66.8%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I dont think Browning would trade all his World titles for an Olympic Gold. I think he might trade 2 of them for 1 Olympic Gold though. ;) I think he might trade 1 for a non gold Olympic medal. Only he knows the answer for sure. I am of the belief the Olympics are definitely bigger than a Worlds, but they also arent the be-all-and-end-all of the sport some make it out to be.
  2. paskatefan

    paskatefan Well-Known Member

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    I love and admire both teams. I will say that I think that Isabelle & Olivier were under marked at so many World Championships (4th place finishes ...), so I was ecstatic when they won Worlds in 2008. Re: Tanith & Ben, I felt they should have won worlds in 2009 (Meryl & Charlie should have been on that World podium with them and Tessa & Scott). Meryl & Charlie were great at US nationals (saw them live) and I thought were even better at last year's Worlds. This year, Tanith & Ben should have been back on the Olympic podium instead of Domnina & Shabalin (nothing personal against Dominina & Shabalin - I just feel they have been over marked for years).

    Whatever the case, I am grateful for all the success that both teams have had internationally.
  3. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    As for the people mentioning B/A's Olympic Silver Medal:

    I'm not saying that B/A didn't deserve their medal, but D/S deserved a medal as well and they had a much better FD than B/A in that competition...
  4. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    In my opinion, this is truly a toss-up.

    What I'm going to saying is what everyone agrees upon, but Delobel/Schoenfelder have the advantage of the major titles (except for the Olympics), while Belbin/Agosto had the consistent high rankings and "revolutionized" NA ice dancing, though not with the major titles. I think it's difficult to say which team had a stronger career.

    Going off topic, I do agree that Delobel/Schoenfelder have had to fight for their places a lot longer. While their skating skills, lifts, and innovation are at the top, I think their relative lack of expression gave judges/spectators a reason to undermark/underrate them. We can interpret it as subtlety or as their 'style', but I did think that their relatively solemn style weakened their programs especially before their big move up the rankings in the 03/04 season.

    Their continual 4th/5th place finishes from 2005 and on must have been frustrating to them and to their fans as well, but I think some of their placements were justified. For example, their FD was relatively lackluster in the 2006 WC, especially compared to the performances of D/L, D/V, and D/S. And they didn't have a strong OD to back them up.

    I know what I said earlier seems against D/S, because I think that overall they have been underrated. But severe underscoring, in my book, is relatively rare. Even Matt Savoie, IMO, wasn't undermarked as much as people say.
  5. EBASKoroleva

    EBASKoroleva New Member

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    B&A they weren't robbed at the Olympics in 2006. :(
  6. HSGP21

    HSGP21 New Member

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    In 2006?? 2010 rather?

    Imagine if Dominina/Shablin had not been over-marked these past few years, and Belbin/Agosto's resume read like the following:

    5 US golds, 4 US silvers
    1 World Gold, 1 World Silver, 2 World Bronze
    1 Olympic Silver, 1 Olympics Bronze

    I believe they've had a more successful career even with their current resume, but a world title and two Olympic medals would have made it indisputable, I believe...
  7. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    which one, 2009? they didn't deserve that gold either. Both top two places were like a practical joke for me. Meryl and Charlie so deserved to win then.
  8. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    LOL, I agree with you !
  9. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    So do I !!
  10. silverstars

    silverstars New Member

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    I like D&S, but I'd go with B&A.They were able to sustain a long and successful career together, even if they never won a major title, and they're Olympic silver medalists. There's also that small thing they did where they made NA ice dancing relevant. Teams like D&W would be competing in a very different arena if B&A hadn't come first (I'm not saying that they wouldn't have made it, just that B&A were the first US team in a long time to be well-respected by the international dance community and therefore opened up some doors along the way).
  11. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Partly I'd say you were right, but I think the team that really did this was Silverstein/Pekarek. A shame they only had one senior season - but they made the judges look again at American ice dance and Sphilband dancers and I think helped pave the way for the reception B/A got.
    kwanfan1818 and (deleted member) like this.
  12. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    I like D/S for being the better dancers, but would have to give this one to B/A for the attention they garnered throughout their careers, their medals earned, etc. Wheras D/S to me had more memorable programs and they were a more complete team, they also got extremely unlucky (06 olympics, 07 worlds). I agree that S/P were the ones who originally got the ball rolling for US dance, but I also think that the longevity of B/A also opened some doors along the way for their successors. Of course they earned more medals than D/S and an olympic medal so I guess this would mean they had a better career.
    :p Even to this day I cringe when I think about the top two teams that won with those sets of programs, in a pre-Olympic year. Wow. (Even though i think Domshabs did do enough to win overall) Err....let's hope ice dance at the world championships never comes to that again.
  13. clara00

    clara00 New Member

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    I vote for Belbin & Agosto. I love this team..
  14. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    I voted for D/S, not just because they're the most recent team since Rakhama/Kokko to make my all-favorites list, but because they were innovative and stretched themselves technically and artistically as much as anyone during the time they competed, except for the very beginning of their career. They had a coach for most of their career who didn't try to shoehorn them into a box, and their material was copied by other camps. They did a remarkable job of adapting to IJS after having spent more than half of their career competing under 6.0.
  15. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    I've always wondered what happened to DelShoes' "Carnival in Venice" FD post Skate America. I could never put my finger on it, the changes didn't seem all that drastic yet the dance never came across as well (to me) as it did when Isabelle and Olivier initially debuted it. It also didn't help that the new costumes introduced in Torino were (again IMO) too heavy/overly dramatic and in particular Isabelle's dress was unflattering. Whenever I want to watch that program I always pull out my Skate America tape unless I'm watching to check for speed, performance or mistakes for conversation purposes.

    DelShoes skated their OD well in Torino but ITA that it wasn't great.

    I always felt it was DenStavs who were cheated out of a medal in 2006. Yes, they made mistakes in the OD performance but their CD and FD were so good they should have helped Albena and Max onto the podium. I still feel that DenStavs should have won the FD. I would have placed them, N&K and B&A on the podium leaving G&G (as much as I loved them) off.

    Against my better judgement.....

    I don't understand why people insist on ignoring the two other segments of the competition at 2009 Worlds. I agree that D&W should have finished higher in the FD in L.A. but because of the CD and OD (the rules do not allow for throwing out the first two segments with the FD winner deciding the champion) they would not have won the overall title even had they won the FD. And rightfully so. D&W made mistakes in the OD and they were marked properly in the CD.

    B&A like it or not :kickass: in the first two portions (CD and OD) and while the performance level for the FD was quite on par with the CD and OD they still did well enough to have deserved the overall title. B&A's programs may not have been artistic masterpieces (an understatement) but since when has that made a difference as of late not only in icedancing but in the other three disciplines as well? Lately we've seen a glut of medalists (including the champions) rely on working the system too add up points; basically connecting the jumps/footwork sequences. B&A did that in 2009 and this is the one time I feel that Tanith and Ben finally did well enough to win the title. B&A wouldn't have been the first team to win a title based on the strength of only two parts of their overall competition.

    Heck, if others implode as they did during the OD in Torino, even having an excellent performance in the OD (as B&A did) or FD could be enough to propell any team onto the podium. Some may not like that system but that's how it works.

    Back to DelShoes, sometimes I do wonder about the judging and the fan opinions. IMO D&S were excellent in practically every other area. Should just one thing (the lack of an emotional connection between the partners; Isabelle did show expression for most of DelShoes' programs) really be enough to have kept them from winning more medals? Especially since Isabelle and Olivier really didn't skate to romantic/passionate FD's all that often.
  16. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I completely agree about Isabelle's costume in Torino. While D/S had beautiful coustumes that suited their lines perfectly for most of their programs, Isabelle's dress turned out to have the complete opposite effect for this performance (and also for "The Piano" in the 07/08 season, which really distracted me from the actual program).

    As a disclaimer, I may show some bias in judging the 2006 Olympics because of my annoyance over the competitors' poor execution of performances, as they were just adjusting to CoP. I never 'got' N/K and B/A this years, and I thought their placements at the Olympics had more to do with politics than with anything else. I even thought G/G could have placed above them, especially since IMO they had the best OD that year, and their FD wasn't as horrible as most people thought. The French and the Bulgarians both did well enough for the podium as well. The Lithuanians had my favorite FD, but it probably shouldn't get the highest score.

    Looking closely at their past rankings, I do think DelShoes should usually have been around 2 places higher than their actual rankings. An exception to that would be 2003, when they skated a poor CD, and their OD and FD were both a step down from the previous season. If Faiella/Scali had skated their FD cleanly that year, one could make a good case that they deserved 9th.

    I also felt that their win at the 2008 Worlds was more of a reward for their patience and endurance with past unfair judging, rather than for their performance. They were slower and sloppier than usual in their OD and FD, for example, while Virtue/Moir and (IMHO) Khokhlova/Novitski delivered more strongly.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Carmen about the 2009 Worlds especialy. I dont understand people who say V/M and D/W should have finished 1-2 there. V/M had a quite bad OD in that event where they were rightfully placed 6th and while their CD and FD were very strong they werent really the best in any dance there either. D/W were not even close to the best in either the CD or OD. D/W probably had the best FD and V/M the 2nd or 3rd best but their final placings were correct. The only possible changes I would have made to the final results are B/A winning overall over DomShabs and not sure on 3rd place either.
  18. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    but apparently they do allow throwing out the last two segments with the CD winner deciding the champion... :rolleyes: I know this particular case (2010 Euros) does not have anything to do with our topic here, but this kind of defending the rules just makes me laugh...

    I think in some cases a strong FD could be enough to award a couple with an overall win. I mean, wasn't it the point of the new system - leaving an open chance to still fight for your places in FD, rather than having everything set and decided from CD through the whole event, like in the old one? but anyway, I'd still prefer champions with one extraordinary dance and two a bit weaker ones, than with three "fine" but boring performances that don't even have any highlights for you to admire. And then, DW's FD was so much better than any other in LA that it at least should have won them the first place in this segment and well, I'd have given them gold cause there was noone else I could think of who really deserved to be called a world champion then. And VM were very weak for them at that competition, I still can't believe they still won a medal...

    And about Isabelle's dresses - her best Piano dress was the first one, the one she used in GP series. The one from Euros was too simple and at worlds everything was overdone, not only the dress, also the changes they made in the dance itself. But I still loved it and cannot even imagine anyone prefering K/N's "thing" (I can't even call it a dance, sorry :p)
  19. vivika1982

    vivika1982 Well-Known Member

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    Apparently , many people prefered K/N's FD and it was hell of a dance compared to the other top two dances ,maybe not so well skated but it had the "WOW" and :swoon: :eek: :hat1: But you have every right to prefer D/S .
  20. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    Maybe against my better judgement too :lol: but

    Out of curiosity, what mistakeS [plural] are you talking about? I saw one slight mistake on the twizzle - it looked from my camera angle like a slight unbalancing from Charlie on the end of the twizzle. Apart from that they seemed clean to me - much cleaner than both V/M and D/S - and much faster too. They seemed from TV like the fastest team there. Speed used to count for something.

    They were severely undermarked in OD [as were K/N - I guess that is what comes of being the second team :mad:] , and both V/M and D/S were way over-marked [the first team bonus? :angryfire]. With all the mistakes in the elements and the general sloppiness there is no way they deserved positive GOE values or such high PCS marks.

    If the OD marks had been based on the actual skating, the gap between B/A and D/W would have been far smaller than it was, and D/W's clearly superior FD performance would have won gold. IMHO.
    carolina and (deleted member) like this.
  21. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

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    I totally agree!
  22. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    :rolleyes: I wasn't defending the rules as much as I was giving an explanation as to why I believe that B&A deserved a medal and IMO should have won the gold. Laugh all you want, that won't change anyone else opinion.

    As I said, B&A are not the only team or single skater(s) to benefitting from "code whoring." Heck the beloved D&W with Igor's bland but cleverly choreographed program code whored their way through (IMO) one of the worst FD's of the season. Oh, I forgot that since D&W are a favorite team people are talking about POTO as if it's an artistic masterpiece.

    The top two men finishers in Vancouver also did the same thing. Plushenko did it previously four years ago when he won the gold in Torino. Actually at least half the field in all the disciplines no longer bother with actual choreography in between the required jumps and footwork sequences. Yet it's B&A who often get singled out as lacking.

    I never stated I agreed or loved the rules; actually I'm disappointed that the current rules seem to discourage creativity and innovation while they encourage placing the focus on connecting the elements with little in between.

    We can agree that K&N's 2008 FD wasn't all that great as a competitive piece. But for some reason that season many felt that Jana and Sergei were wonderful artists deserving of a medal. As I recall many were hoping and/or predicting they would actually win worlds.
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  23. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    Ok, sorry, perhaps "defending the rules" was a wrong expression, my point was, I have nothing against couples winning by FD, if the FD really stands out and makes the highlight of the night, which was in the case we discuss here.

    Also, never said POTO was an artistic masterpiece. But Samson and Dalilah surely was. And yet, even their POTO was faaar better than anything B/A did in the past few years. JMHO, though.

    yeah, well, that's exactly what I'm talking about. How could they possibly be called artists after presenting this kind of a dance? I mean, seriously, if anything besides ISU new crazy rules has ever been able to literally kill ice dancing, it's dances like K/N's 2008 FD. That program was about everything but dancing. For me it was just tasteless. Again, it's JMO and I know my words are harsh and mean, but that dance was really a torture for me.

    exactly my thoughts, only I wasn't able to put them down in words properly :p
  24. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm...seems to me most of us thought POTO was quite a technical masterpiece, although some of us loved it as artistic as well. And since artistic expression is very much subjective, to each his own.

    Excuse me, but your bitterness is showing. :)
  25. vivika1982

    vivika1982 Well-Known Member

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    We are going way off the topic here but K/N presented very well the idea and the music in Night at the bald mountain and yes, it was somehow according to the new rules.Not to mention that the costumes were also bold but clever choice
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_on_Bald_Mountain
    BTW D/S also skated to this music in 1999, of course it was combine with Adagio by Yanni and to be honest it was not the best interpretation but this is just MHO.

    OTAH I also don't like the way Ice Dance is going but when it comes to the new rules i prefer to see athletic lifts and tricks in dances like K/N 2008 FD instead of watching ballroom music with flips and twists over the sholder .Now this is what i see as tastless.

    Well,we all are looking with different eyes but i don't think we have to turn ourselves into a crusaders defending our favorite figure skaters honor against everyone who has another opinion. Yet,this is what most of the fans do and i admit that i've done it myself too:)
    Now let the voting continue .:cheer:
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2010
  26. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov New Member

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    It's also possible to be a sore winner as well. Your snottiness and passive/aggressive side is coming out. Again.

    Actually I've been very quiet about my feelings on D&W for the very reason stated above. Disliking anyone (or the programs of anyone) who defeated B&A won't be taken at face value. Bitterness my arse. I haven't liked POTO for D&W since they debuted it and said as much long before B&A debuted their own programs. If I was truly being bitter :)rolleyes: :lol:) I would have included all areas of D&W's skating including the Bollywood OD (which I went on record as listing as one of my favorites all season).

    Try again.

    I keep making the mistake of defending B&A for some strange reason. I'm done. The season is over and Tanith and Ben are officially retired. End of story.
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  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Since going against the crowd can be fun sometimes, especialy when you have valid reasons to believe you are right. :lol:
  28. HSGP21

    HSGP21 New Member

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    Don't worry, give D/W another season or two and then suddenly everyone will be trashing them, saying they are overrating, critiquing their lack of technique and moving on to a new young "exciting" team...
  29. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    except, B/A have never been exciting, even when "fresh" and young, at least not for me :p So, I cannot speak for the crowd but I don't see myself moving on from D/W that easily. I don't give up on my favourites just like that ;)

    And hey, I know everything about going against the crowd. You're talking to a girl who cannot pass V/M's Mahler FD without ironically laughing at some elements, with a severe toothache caused by the sugar put in this dance :p And then, I went against the crowd loving D/S Piano more than V/M Umbrellas in 2008. So yeah, I'm pretty much an expert :p
  30. Valentina

    Valentina New Member

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    B/A were fresh andexciting from 2002 to 2005 and D/W really made me think about Tanith and ben from this period of time. I think their coaches didn't know how to handle their situation post world medal, their program were never rigth or okey (i don't know how to explain it) I do hope thta the same thing doesn't happen to FSU sweet hearts.

    so agree with your second paragraph :)
  31. mia joy

    mia joy New Member

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    I don't know, maybe I just don't remember them too well from that period, ice dancing went completely unexciting in general to me then, after A/P, D/V, L/A's retirement, so i didn't really pay attention to it (I know - I lost much of D/S but I only fell for them in 2006), but well, I watched it and B/A failed to make me excited about themselves or ice dance in general, so...

    btw, I love your supporting of my negative VM comments :EVILLE:
  32. Valentina

    Valentina New Member

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    hahaha...yes!!! :EVILLE:
    I can understand what you saying but I still think they were fresh and exciting :D they were so charismatic and had a powerfull skating, seriouly, what a heel happen to them?!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1utGRaJuFbI
  33. HSGP21

    HSGP21 New Member

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  34. *Kim*

    *Kim* New Member

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  35. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    I remember the Elvis program too!

    It was a lot of fun, but at least in Lalique, it was somewhat sloppily executed. I thought their style back then had not matured, especially with the certain lacks in finish, such as with Tanith's unpointed toes. It was clear that they were not yet as sophisticated as teams such as G/G or D/S. But starting from the 06/07 season, I started enjoying their programs more, and seeing a more mature approach to their programs. My favorite programs by them were their Amelie and Chopin programs, even though Amelie was not skated to its potential.
  36. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    IMO Elvis is probably wrong program to be critiquing Tanith's toes: a balletically pointed toe in a rock n roll number is so out of place as to be :eek::wall::eek:
    Completely not in the character of the music/dance.

    Now Chopin, let fly. Her toes should be balletically pointed there, IMO.