Which skaters can beat a clean Yu Na Kim if they also skate cleanly

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Gabybackhand, Apr 22, 2013.

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Which of these people can beat a clean Kim next year with a clean skate

  1. Sotnikova

    4.6%
  2. Tuktamysheva

    2.1%
  3. Gold

    5.4%
  4. Wagner

    2.5%
  5. Kostner

    38.8%
  6. Asada

    32.1%
  7. Murakami

    2.1%
  8. Czisny

    3.8%
  9. Osmond

    1.3%
  10. Suzuki

    3.8%
  11. Ando (if she returns)

    4.6%
  12. nobody can beat a clean Kim

    45.8%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I both agree and disagree with Carmen in a sense on the Asada vs Kim thing. I agree in that the judges have Kim having a certain gap on Asada that maybe shouldnt exist, even in the hypothetical both skated clean or similarily well, atleast considering Asada attempts even tougher jump content generally. However on the other hand I certainly cant think of a single time Kim beat Asada where she didnt clearly deserve to win. 2009 Worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2013 Worlds, and any smaller events Asada made many more mistakes than Kim anyway, so the result was correct regardless, but even had Asada skated cleanly she probably wouldnt have been close, which is where some could disagree with whether Mao is fairly rewarded or Kim especialy overrewarded for certain aspects of their skating. However as it is Asada has never lost to Kim a time she shouldnt have, and in fact the only really close decision between them went Asada's way (2008 Worlds), and some even thought Kim should have won there, but that was when the judges viewed them as virtual equals.

    I think the biggest edges Kim has over Asada are her jumps are much higher quality and deservedly get higher GOE, and her speed across the ice is much more, and for a period of time Kim's choreography was much stronger. The latter part really only being 2009-2010 though, as before then and again now Asada's choreography is as good or better IMO. Asada has much nicer positions in spins and spirals IMO, and superior posture and line overall, but really isnt rewarded much for that; and when you combine that with she was alternately struggling with consistency on her jumps, and now that she got consistency with all the triples back attempting an almost inhuman and impossible to skate cleanly jump layout again, and it just never adds up in her favor.
     
  2. munow

    munow New Member

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    Asada is awarded enough for her great qualities. Why do people (choose to) forget she too has advantage over any other female skater who isn't named Kim or Kostner? Her PCS would tank without her beautiful style. And yes, her leg line is indeed better and more balletic than Kim's, but she doesn't have better posture in general especially that of her upper body. The posture is an essential part of skating skills, and Asada's glides and crossovers aren't as balanced (resulting in less speed and ice coverage).

    Kim and Asada's PCS gap should and will rightfully continue to exist.
     
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    There are signs Asada is held up against the rest of the field (eg- NHK this season) the same way Kim and Kostner are held up to an even greater extent over everyone including Mao (sometimes, sometimes their performances justify it and they dont have to be). I see what you are saying but while I like Kim, and as I said I do think all her World and Olympic wins were clear and undisputable, and if anything the two times it was close and they could have gone her way she lost (2008 and 2011 Worlds), I think the is overrewarded in some things. Someone mentioned a few years ago her spins and spirals were getting much more points than Czisny or Nagasu. I was surprised to hear that and that is definitely not correct, at best she should have been getting the same, an quite often less points out of those moves. While atleast she cant fall a bunch of times and win like Chan gets away with, she still is seen by the judges as being on her own plateau on almost everything, and that really isnt right, or atleast many people dont view it that way. Anyway I dont want to get into a long drawn out discussion on this so I will stop now.
     
  4. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    I bet if mao beat Yuna, Yuna has more mistakes than mao and first drops from the podium several times in next season
    Mao's PCS will beat Yuna's immediately. Carolina probably will be, too.

    Their PCS is not only decided by their performance, but also their consistency in last many years. and their 'named'.
    In 2012 GPF, Mao had won, and suzuki was bronze, akiko's PCS was 7 point lower than Mao.
    Mao has great SS than suzuki? she has more artistry than suzuki? the difference is their career, their 'named'..

    In 07-08 season, Mao and Yuna were really close, very equal.. Kim won two GPS, Asada also won two GPS, Kim won Asada in GPF,
    and about 2008 World Championships, I can't sure it was fair judging. but, anyway, Mao made ​​many mistakes, but won the world title with the help of the PCS.
    Yuna was the bronze. As a result, Mao was higher than Yuna at that season.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  5. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    With a more accurate appraisal of the spiral sequence, the spins, and the true difficulty of a 3A-2T vs 3Lz-3T, Asada might not have lost the SP at the 2010 Olympics. Mao's spins, transitions, and the timing are equal to or superior to Kim's. I scratch my head at the judging. Kim is faster and has sexier and more coquettish details. Her 3F is better than Mao's, and her speed in/out of jumps is better. However, beauty I only find in Mao's program, and she did a combo that no other woman can even do in practice.

    Mao Vancouver 2010 SP

    Yuna Vancouver 2010 SP
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think the GOE of Kim's jumps would have still put her slightly above in that case, and while I generally agree on the spins Kim's spins on that particular day were as good or better; but even if Asada had won the SP in Vancouver her LP vs Kim's would in no way would have merited the gold medal. My comment was based on overall competitions, not specific programs. Of course a blatant example, Kim in no way should have won the LP at the 2010 Worlds, but Asada still won the event as she should have. Kim never defeated Asada in an overall competition she did not clearly deserve to (2008 GPF is the only one that was somewhat close, but both were held up bigtime in the SP there, and Asada even moreso).
     
  7. munow

    munow New Member

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    3A2T is more difficult than 3Lz3T. However Mao Asada's 3A over-rotation on takeoff is far from what makes a good Axel jump, and Kim's perfect execution gives her the edge.

    Asada did not have better spins and spirals that night. It will be the case if you only appreciate pretty extensions regarding those elements which sadly isn't the reality. Kim being a weak or average spinner is a total myth and her spirals have stunning speed and edge quality her naysayers try to ignore. So the reality is, Kim has much stronger basics in general and simply is a better skater thus receiving higher scores. Asada fans will have to get over it because the skater herself knows that, attempting a layout of higher BV by 10 points or so.
     
  8. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I think Mao's fake bust was deducted for by some judges.

    Seriously, Mao's LSp is so beautiful. How do you compare the experience of that to watching Yuna work through hers? I am open to crediting Yu Na based on more sophisticated turns, speed, and use of arms, but there is not a classical moment of unadulterated beauty.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
  9. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I see your point but there is also literally no other lady in the World who can do a 3lutz/3toe like Yu Na can. Not a single woman can do that combination with such technique (true edge), full rotation, speed, distance, height, etc. Every single thing about that jump combination is textbook. It should receive +3 from every judge just because they will NOT see it done any better by any lady in the competition. It is THE BEST. Period. Is it the same as a 3axel/2toe? No, but Maos 3axel/2toe is not perfect. It can be done better. She badly pre-rotates her axel (more so than should be done, I realize it is unavoidable to some small degree) and does not get exceptional height or distance on the jumps. The 2toe is just barely there, tacked on for good measure.

    I think Asada is a better spinner but on this day Kim held her own and as someone else said, it isn't just about what kind of line you prefer on a skater. There are other aspects of spins (and spirals) that Kim excels at. For example, Kim's spins are SO fast and look at her spiral compared to Asadas. They both do similar spirals, taking strokes after the change edge before going into the back hydrant type of position. Kim takes 2 strokes and is flying while Asada takes many more strokes and still doesn't have nearly the speed. In the end that is what I notice most about their SPs. Kim had attack, speed and total command. Mao was pretty but everything was just small and slow IN COMPARISON. It can't compete with what Kim put out there, she was literally blown away by Kim.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
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  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I hope you mean Mao's LP of this year. Her LP of 2010 was just :scream: even had she ever skated it cleanly. I agree Mao's LP this year was beautiful but it doesnt mean much if she cant land more than 3 or 4 clean triples ever.
     
  11. Li'Kitsu

    Li'Kitsu Member

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    Actually, I'd say Gracie Gold and Elizaveta Tuktamysheva can keep up. And even though she seldomly attempts and lands the combo, Elene Gedevanishvilis 3Lz-3T is monstrous too. Of course Yuna eats all of those three in overall skating quality, and she's by far the most consistent with that combination. But if you're talking about pure quality when landed, she's not the only ladies skater in the world to have it.
     
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  12. Figga

    Figga New Member

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    In terms of pure quality when landed, I think Yuna is the only one to have it. Gracie and Elizaveta's are very nice but they aren't done as smoothly, particularly Liza's. This may all change in the coming season though.
     
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2013
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  13. Figga

    Figga New Member

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    As for Mao, she skates gracefully and I do appreciate her flexibility but she looks unsure of herself in her jumps and that for me takes away from her performances.
     
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  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Tuktamyshevas tiny jumps dont even compare.

    I did rewatch the Vancouver SPs again BTW and after reseeing Kim definitely had BETTER spins than Mao on that day IMO. Her layback was tons faster, and positions werent much different. Her combination spin was faster with equally strong positions as well.
     
  15. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    there are other who can do it. You have to wait, no idea how it will be next year. But Carolina can
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=xrKEB763d7U#t=18s
     
  16. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    I think you've described like three of the eight bullet points for getting GOE, and I'd argue she doesn't always satisfy the rest to get +3. Though she definitely has the edge on jump GOEs anyway

    I thought Asada's triple axel had great height, but very little flow/distance and was always just barely rotated.
     
  17. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    No, she's not. But I think she does that combo better than any other skater (even the men). Gracie's 3Lz+3T comes close, given it's height and ice coverage, but Yuna's is more fluid. Liza's is great technically, but her combo is rather tiny and doesn't cover much ice.
     
  18. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
    2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
    3) varied position in the air /delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    5) good extension on landing / creative exit
    6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
    7) effortless throughout
    8) element matched to the musical structure


    Furthermore, according to the technical handbook:
    She arguably satisfies at least 6 bullet points, and even if not, judges have the discretion to decide how many bullets count for +1 vs. +3 in any case as the above are only "recommendations".
     
  19. Dilng

    Dilng Well-Known Member

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    I recall many people saying this about Michelle at the '98 Olympics and we all know how that turned out!;)
     
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  20. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    Indeed! The reigning world champion with the hard triple-triple won the 1998 Olympics. ;)
     
  21. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I should have been a little more specific in my post when I said no one can touch Yu Na's 3lutz/3toe. I put it in present tense but I was focusing on the 2010 Olympic competition. In THAT competition, no one was even coming close...not even the slightest bit. Now there are a few who can compete with her on that combination, I agree. Also, yes, there are other aspects to GOE but who cares, Yu Na does the combination better than anyone whether or not she does the jump with her hand above her head, her eyes closed, or upside down.
     
  22. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    No one will be a clean Yuna. Carolina although can receive great GOE and PCS scores, her base value for TES will never be high enough to beat Yuna. Mao has the potential to receive high TES base value, however she will not receive the same GOE as Yuna and Kostner to pull up her TES.
     
  23. torren

    torren New Member

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    Carolina can receive great PCS and GOE, but base value is low.
    Mao has high base value, but she can't receive high GOE like kim.

    Anyway, I can't sure kim can clean program again in next olympics.. honestly, It's not so often she had perfect two clean programs?
    Mao has taken back her consistency. If kim makes mistakes a little more than mao.. Mao would win..
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  24. ehdtkqorl123

    ehdtkqorl123 New Member

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    Really? :rolleyes:
     
  25. gingercrush

    gingercrush New Member

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    She is in much better competitive shape but still is very prone to underrotations. but she is certainly much better than she was in 2010-2011 or 2011-2012.
     
  26. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    And at the '99 Worlds... Nobody is invincible, but it is true that IJS can make someone like Yuna or Patrick Chan much harder to beat.
     
  27. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Well, Yuna never won when she had more than 4 falls.
     
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  28. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    :yawn:
    Patrick Chan can win fall four times, And huge PCS often saved him.
    kim is not.

    1. When she has more mistakes than Mao,she couldn't beat Mao.
    But, Mao always almost made more mistakes than Yuna.
    2. when Yuna win major titles, she had almost perfect programs.
    2009 world - the only mistake was last 3s in FS/2010 olympics - two clean programs/2013 worlds - two clean programs.
    3. Yuna has never won by Pcs. her rank has never gone up by PCS.
    4. If yuna is under 6.0 system. In any system. She could win her olympics, worlds. Do you have objections to this claim?

    the way to mao beat Yuna is just Mao increase her consistency, and has cleaner program than Yuna.
    It only depends on her ability. Don't make an excuse.
     
    Last edited: Apr 28, 2013
  29. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    Michelle Kwan. She should win all hypothetical competitions. ;)

    Kostner possibly has the best chance if she upgrades her difficulty but I feel the possibility of her going clean at the Olympics (the stage where she had horrible meltdowns in the past) is less than Mao going fairly clean with her layout.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    well Kwan did not skate cleanly there, and bombed the SP. Although the way Maria skated there (the competition of her life along with Russian Nationals 99) she might have suffered another shock loss ala Nagano even if she had.

    Kim can not be compared to Chan. Even if she might be a bit of a judges favorite she would never get away with making the number of mistakes he makes and still win. In fact the interesting thing as I mentioned is all her major titles were slam dunk blowouts that cant even be questioned, while the times it was close (2008 Worlds, 2011 Worlds) she always ended up the loser; which kind of goes against the general feeling that she is the judges favorite.
     
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