Which skaters are truly "legendary"...

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Fandango, Oct 25, 2013.

  1. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

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    Jackson Haines, of course, didn't win an Olympic Gold Medal as he performed before the Olympic era.

    In general, I do think results are a big factor but not the only factor. For example, Dick Button obviously has the results and the "firsts"/records he holds are truly astounding. But I'd argue that his legendary status is certainly boosted by how big a presence he was in figure skating AFTER his competitive career. More than any other commentator, I'd argue (certainly English speaking commentator, but I'd be intrigued to hear foreign examples as well) he's shaped what an audience feels modern figure skating should be.

    Vash mentioned this in the successful skater becomes successful coach thread, but I'd argue you've got skaters like Mishin and Moskvina who, as coaches, shaped the sport in profound ways.

    I have no problem with Shen/Zhao being thought of in that stratosphere. The most successful Chinese figure skaters ever. At least one skate for the all time lists. Athletically very gifted with HUGE elements. If they help foster a successful generation, well, I think it would be "inarguable" (inasmunch as anything is inarguable on the internet, anyway).
     
  2. her grace

    her grace Well-Known Member

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    Tonya Harding :p
     
  3. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

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    I'm not sure of exactly how many names my own list would include, but Chen Lu would probably make the cut.
     
  4. Simone411

    Simone411 Just Flip-Flopping Around

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    The skaters already listed are legendary to me.

    I'm also including in my list Paul Wiley, Todd Eldredge, Nancy Kerrigan, Elizabeth Punsalan and Jerod Swallow, Dorothy Hamill, Scott Hamilton and Viktor Petrenko.

    There's more, but my list would be very long by the time I finished. :)
     
  5. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

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    In your logic:
    Evgeni Plushenko: 4+3+2 and 4+3+3 combo in history
    Elvis Stojko 4+3 combo
     
  6. Aerobicidal

    Aerobicidal Well-Known Member

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    Nina Bates
    Simone Pastusiak
    Irina Movchan
     
  7. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    yes. Those things did indeed change today's skating expectations.
     
  8. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Kwan has 5 World Championships, so I think a significant portion of the "rest of the world" is wowed by her or at least acknowledges her legendary status. Janet Lynn is more of a legend in Japan than in the US. She certainly belongs on the list, too.
     
  9. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    Championships are awarded by judges, who score by the rulebook and don't need to be wowed. My point was that she was not as popular nor held in such high regard by fans in other parts of the world. I think legendary is defined more broadly than titles. Kwan was an excellent textbook skater, remarkable for her jumping consistency, but she didn't really bring anything new to skating nor change the sport in any way.
     
  10. RickInSanJose

    RickInSanJose Active Member

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    In Boxing, most certainly. Why, Ali, Louis, and Dempsey have NOTHING on her.

    And Denise Biehlmann should be included for that LOVELY move named after her.
     
  11. Braulio

    Braulio Well-Known Member

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    Gordeeva/Grinkov, Witt, Boitano, Plushenko, Kwan, Torvill & Dean, John Curry, Dick Button, Yagudin, Shen & Zhao, Sonja Henie, Grischuk & Platov
     
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  12. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    She might not be as popular in other countries as in the US but I disagree that she is not held in high regard. She has been listed as an idol for many young skaters around the world. And to be the star of American ladies skating when it was at its peak for so long should mean something.
     
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  13. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    How about the first to do a Layback Spin, Camel Spin, and One-footed Axel? How about the first lady to do a double jump?
     
  14. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    Pretty :grope: though, wasn't she? :)
     
  15. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    Do you have those names?
     
  16. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Tim Goebel legendary? Ummm no. It's not like he was the first man to do a quad either.
     
  17. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    Note that I said multiple quads in one program. You might not like his skating, but he did do something that changed figure skating. That's my definition.
     
  18. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    If we don't know their names, then are they really legendary?
     
  19. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

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    Only one name is required to answer those questions: Cecilia Colledge.
     
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  20. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, Guo Zhengxin was the first to land 2 quads in a program at 1997 Worlds (both quad toes). Min Zhang landed the first quad in the short program, and Kevin Reynolds was the first to land 2 quads in the short program. Vise & Trent landed the first throw quad in international competition. I wouldn't consider any of them legendary for those feats alone, although they should rightfully be proud of those accomplishments.

    Tim was the first to land 3 quads in a program at Skate America 1999. I'm not sure whether he was also the first to land 2 DIFFERENT quads in a program.

    Kurt Browning landed the first ratified quad and I WOULD consider him legendary, but not for that reason.
     
  21. numbers123

    numbers123 Well-Known Member

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    I figured someone would, which is why I asked the question.

    My personal definition was who impacted figure skating by doing something that changed the look of skating. For most of those accomplishments, I have to think that it might have been a matter of chance. Who was willing to take that chance and who accomplished it first. So someone might not like Tim G's skating, he was the first to have ratified multiple quads in one program. Maybe if Evengi skated earlier in the season he might have been the one who changed it. Sometimes it happens by chance or draw or whatever.

    I stand corrected on the multiple quads. That's another thing that can be fluid in my list.

    And in my short list, I left off Ulrich Salchow :duh:
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  22. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Very cool, if true, though I recall reading that one theory on the camel spin was that it came from the name Campbell, so I thought she might have done it before. Did any male skaters perform a camel spin before her? (Not trying to be sexist and assume that anything a woman could do a man must have done before, but competitive skating was male-only for a while before women started competing so they had a head start). I do remember Dick Button being named as the first to do a FLYING camel.
     
  23. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

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    If they had, I wouldn't have posted as I did. :p (Or are you leaving open the possibility that she might have devised it for someone else?) The Campbell attribution is new to me (which means nothing, as I'm no expert), so I'll just pretend that the Australian skater is Leibniz and Colledge is Newton in the case of that spin. :saint:
     
  24. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Which is why I already tried to add her to the list. Cecilia was really great!
     
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  25. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps! Wikipedia mentions both names and also that Gillis Grafstrom had a variation that did precede Cecilia's, but Cecilia was considered the inventor of the "regular" camel spin.

    Now who was the first man to do a layback spin?
     
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Well, at the very least, Cecelia Colledge was the first to perform the camel spin in competition, and, either way, this comment would be sexist because this point of contention detracts from the contributions of women, in general, by giving credit to neither woman.

    Furthermore, Cecelia Colledge did invent the layback spin by training with a contortionist, which is well documented even down to the contortionist's name and location, and was the first to perform it in competition, therefore contributing the CoP as much as any man.

    And, yes, yes, Uncle Dick was the first to perform a flying camel spin IN COMPETITION, a variation of a preexisting element, like Cecelia Colledge was the first to perform a one-footed Axel jump by anybody, man or woman. However, there was not contention between these two; Uncle Dick and Cecelia knew each other through the Skating Club of Boston, and were friends . . . despite footage of Cecelia performing a flying camel with dated art deco technique outside of competition. :)eek: I think that spin was also level 3 or 4. I can't tell if there was a change of edge.)

    Cecelia was so driven to outperform Sonia Henie, who had a death grip on eligible skating despite probably being technically ineligible due to receiving material gain under the table, that she was driven to perform freeskates that included more difficulty than even men were performing, including being the first woman to perform a double jump.

    *Gus Lussi claimed that an Australian skater with the last name Campbell invented the Camel Spin but did not do it in competition. However, the same can be side about almost all elements, except maybe the layback spin. Often ineligible show skaters would perform elements, then an eligible amateur would replicate it in competition. The ISU used to only recognize elements PERFORMED IN INTERNATIONAL COMPETITION, with the understanding that no international competitions existed except their competitions, even if a competing sanctioning body might have existed. Now, the ISU will apparently "homologate" elements performed in sanctioned competition of member federations with video evidence.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  27. falling_dance

    falling_dance Happy for Kozuka, Sad for D. Murakami

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    Viktor Petrenko. :D

    I have no idea. :eek:
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    And, hell, that was an ugly attempt at a layback.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  29. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

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    Did Toller Cranston ever do one? I wouldn't be surprised if he had.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I would add Janet Lynn to that list. She spoke of returning to Japan in the 90s and still being famous there, and Japan wasnt even a huge skating country at the time.

    Unlike others I would keep Yagudin on. I actually have more doubts about Plushenko than I do Yagudin. I am not sure if Plushenko is a big deal outside of Europe. Yagudin Americanilized himself so is still very famous and loved over here, moreso than Plushenko who is mostly vilified in this part of the World these days. Yagudin has also toured and built up more of a folllowing in Asia than Plushenko has.

    I would also leave Kwan off, just as you have. I always got the impression she was only a huge star in North America. In other parts of the World she was liked and respected while competing, but not a huge star all the same. Now retired even less so.

    I thought of including Irina Slutskaya, but she is the opposite of Kwan. She has a big following in Russia, and to some degree in Europe, but less so in the other parts of the World. Respected and liked, but not a star, outside of her own territory.

    I might add Robin Cousins to that list.

    Definitely would add Midori Ito who has a huge following.

    So I would go with: Henie, Button, Prottoppovs, Irina Rodnina and the Alexeis, Cranston, Curry, Cousins, Lynn, Ito, T&D, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Witt, Browning, G&G, Yagudin, Shen & Zhao, Kim, and maybe Plushenko.

    Baiul had a large following in both Europe and North America for quite awhile. Not sure about Asia, and with time she has become more forgotten so wouldnt include her.