Which of these results did Maria deserve in her career

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by butyrskafanatic, May 26, 2013.

Maria deserved these medals/wins in her career and was robbed of

Poll closed Mar 22, 2014.
  1. 1996 Worlds bronze

    61.5%
  2. 1997 Grand Prix final gold (or silver)

    38.5%
  3. 1997 Worlds bronze

    41.0%
  4. 1998 Olympics bronze

    56.4%
  5. 1998 Worlds silver

    41.0%
  6. 2000 Worlds gold

    41.0%
  7. 2000 NHK gold

    76.9%
  8. 2001 Grand Prix final gold (based on how she skates winning NHK)

    15.4%
  9. 2001 Worlds gold

    25.6%
  10. 2002 Olympic gold (based on how she skates if she didnt quit after robbed in short)

    7.7%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Maria Butyrskaya is one of the most underrated and undermarked skaters ever. These are the results I think she deserved and did not get in her career. Which of these do you think she should have gotten but judges deprived her:

    1995 Nations Cup- deserved gold over Kwan. She skated cleanly with 6 triples and Kwan stepped out of a jump and doubled another and only did 5. Yet Kwan was given even higher technical marks.
    1996 Worlds- deserved bronze over Slutskaya.
    1997 Grand Prix final- deserved silver or gold. Was the only person to skate cleanly but was put behind Lipinski, Kwan, and Slutskaya who all had mistakes and Kwan and Slutskaya many of them.
    1997 Worlds- deserved bronze. Would have won bronze if she was 4th in long program but was placed behind Gusmeroli who had more mistakes and is generally a weaker skater who combes behind Maria any other time their careers. Vanessa was marked based on her great short, not her crummy long though.
    1998 Olympics- deserved bronze over Chen. Yes she had more technical mistakes than Chen, but Chen's overall technical level was so weak by that then Maria deserved a much higher technical score even with more mistakes. The judges were just excited to see Chen skate almost cleanly with all the technical disaesters and falls she had around then they overmarked her. Even Chen's artistry was overated and overscored by then.
    1998 Worlds- deserved silver over Slutskaya. The judges marked her down too much for a bad fall near the end, both in technical and artistic scores which is too bad as she skated well enough to win the long over a subpar Kwan otherwise. Her artistic scores still should have easily put her over Irina who had a fall and turned out of both her triple-triples anyway.
    2000 Worlds- I think overall she deserved to gold. I know some will find that strange since Kwan skated cleanly in all phases and did have by far the best long program performance I agree, and Maria had a relatively bad long. However remember the factored points system. Even though Kwan's short was clean and very good I thought 3rd place was correct. Kwan with 2nd in the qualifying, 3rd in the short, and 1st in the long would have lost to Maria with 1st in the qualifying, 1st in the short, and 2nd in the long. Even though Maria's long was bad with mistakes so was Irina Slutskaya's, and Maria should have beaten Irina's long thus with the factored points system was robbed of winning.
    2000 NHK- Was robbed of winning. Skated way better than Irina.
    2001 Grand Prix final- This is the first of two indirect ones. She tanked this event since she was upset about losing NHK unfairly to Irina. Had she skated as she would have had she won NHK it would have been good enough to win especialy as both Slutskaya and Kwan were sluggish here.
    2001 Worlds- Deserved silver here, or atleast bronze. Short program should have been 2nd behind Slutskaya. Long program should have been 2nd behind Kwan. These overall would have given her silver, even with 4th in the qualifying round.
    2002 Olympics- I think she was indirectly robbed of winning the gold and I will explain why. Her short deserved something from 2nd to 4th, not 5th (Slutskaya even the overrated cow she is should have won the short too, the U.S skaters were all way overmarked and all foreign skaters hammered). Had she been placed fairly in the short she would have skated the great long she was planning to and with Kwan and Slutskaya's performances deserved 2nd in the long to Hughes. Hughes deserved about 10th in the short, so this would have given Maria the gold overall. The judges told Maria in the short she had no chance to medal even if she did 5 quadruple jumps in the long so she gave up and did not bother doing the great long she had planned.

    For the 2001 Grand Prix final and 2002 Olympics remember it is not based on her performance she gave entirely, but based on how she would have skated had she not been robbed in an earlier outing, either at a previous event, or the previous program.
     
  2. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I also forgot 1998 and 1999 Japan Opens, she deserved to win those too. How can I add those to the poll.
     
  3. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    2001 GPF and 2002 Olympics should not be included because it's based on pure speculation on how she could have done had she not been hosed at an earlier event or phase of the competition as opposed to the actual performances.

    As to the other choices...I think most of her losses were fair, but with the most blatant example of her being cheated out of a win being the 2000 NHK. That's one competition I'll never forget fuming afterwards. It was like how I felt about the 2002 GPF ladies competition as well.
     
  4. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I think if she had won NHK over Slutskaya in 2000 like everyone said she should and had she been placed over Hughes atleast in the short at the 2002 Olympics like everyone said she should, she would have had more motivation and skated much better at the 2001 GPF and 2002 Olympic long program. It would have made her feel like she had a chance and the judges had not written her off before she even skated.

    Even Peter Carruthers who adores Slutskaya like his 2nd child said the result of Maria losing NHK to Slutskaya that time was disgraceful and one of the worst decisions he ever saw in the sport, and admitted it might be hard for her to come back from emotionally given the stage of her career she was already at (near the end).
     
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Right, but that's just too flimsy for me to consider. I rather have choices based on the actual performance. This is not to say that the context doesn't provide a valid explanation as to why Bute underperformed, but the fact is that when you're choosing a competition in which she should have won, you should only go by the actual performances brought on in that competition as a whole.
     
  6. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    I hav no idea how she landed anything in Nagano lp, she was so incredibly tight with her weight so far out of the circle but still managed to find her right foot.

    Butyrskaya has a world title and multiple world medals, to be honest, in every competition you have mentioned, there was somebody more robbed than Maria IMHO.


    96 worlds, Tanya Szwechenko...robbed
    97 worlds, Slutskaya's clearly won the free. Robbed
    1998 Slutskaya's should have been third on the free....although I'm glad Chen was third.
    1998 worlds, Rechnio was criminally robbed. Had the judges put her ahead of Hubert (in 4th) on the free she'd have won silver. Instead they put her 5th which allowed Maria and Irina to pass despite shiteous short programmes. Maria should never have been top 6 in the short.
    2000.... Maria robbed Gusmeroli, that still haunts me. Same, 2000 euros...poor Vanessa.
    2001 worlds, Suguri was robbed. I'd even have Nikodinov ahead of Maria and Hughes.
    2002 Olympics, she was dreadful. Under rotated jumps, tight, slow and surprisingly shit CH not a good moment. Again, Suguri should have medalled ahead of buyrskaya and obviously Kwan....how te feck did she win with a short that wasn't even top 7 worth?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2013
  7. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    Vanessa did not deserve a medal at the 2000 Worlds. That is crazy. She was 7th in the qualifying with a horrible skate and was lucky to be placed 4th in the short where Maria was the clear winner. Even if Vanessa had beaten Maria in the long, which I dont think she should have anyway, she would have been nowhere close to her overall.

    Nikodinov let her program at the 2001 Worlds fall apart on the last 90 seconds.

    Suguri is an umpolished skater who cant even extend her free leg properly.

    Szewcenko at the 1996 Worlds should have placed below Kwiatkowski.

    Slutskaya should have been 6th in the short at the 1998 Olympics but was given one of her usual gifts by being placed over a way better performance by Bonaly with a junior jump combination. Maybe 3rd in the long but 3rd in the long with 6th in the short would still place behind Maria being 3rd in the short and 4th in the long.
     
  8. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for changing my mind and informing my choices with your in depth superior knowledge. For some reason I still feel the need to express my own opinion, ack, must remember to pander to opinions of others in future. :)

    On another note, how depressing to think 1996 worlds ( that I watched live on Eurosport and remember every detail of Vorobieva's Cotton Eye Joe shite free skate - random void- and remember Czako stopped in her Fp then re started with five triples) well, it'is 17 years ago eeeeeeeek:(
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    1996 Worlds bronze- yes for sure
    1998 Olympics bronze- yes for sure
    2000 NHK gold- yes for sure
    2001 Worlds- bronze yes, silver no

    2000 Worlds- meh maybe, I guess in theory only due to the f-ed up q round being included, but boy that would have been backdooring yourself into the title. It would be one thing if she skated really well and still came 2nd to Kwan in the LP and won due to her SP, but winning with that skate..... The judges probably thought the same thing so made sure to bump up Irina's scores for a similarily so soish performance to make sure that didnt happen.
    1997 Worlds bronze- meh maybe, Slutskaya should have been 1st or 2nd in the LP and gotten on the podium anyway.
    1997 Grand Prix final- dont really remember much about the event.

    The rest- No.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Czako was one of my favorites, rough edges and all. I loved the voidy look she started to have in 96 and 97 too, complete with the huge jumps she had always had. I wonder why she dissapeared after 97. I also had her 2nd in the SP at the 97 Worlds behind only Gusmeroli.
     
  11. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    To her credit she skated her absolute best in the SP and FS, but she was generally a has-been after 1998. I think she deserved fourth. Her telegraphed entrances were a weakness.
     
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I think Maria was done in more by her federation than any wuz robbed list we can come up with.
     
  13. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    This is true sort of, but Maria was handicapped more by her overactive nerves than the federation. The Russians dumped her cruelly for Slutskaya. They likewise seemed to promote Volchkova over her. However, the federation could not have saved Maria from scary performances like these:


    2002 Season GPF FS-1 "17 Moments of Spring"

    2002 Season GPF FS-2 "Tale of a Journey" aka "Tale of a Dying Butyrskaya"

    2002 World Championships- Butyrskaya QR
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2013
  14. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    The 2000 NHK result was outrageous (just like the 2002 GPF). In 2001, Bute should have won bronze over Hughes (because she should have ranked higher than Hughes in the SP).

    But otherwise, many of the suggestions are just absurd. 2002 Olympics, seriously? Butyrskaya's SP performance was one of her weakest in recent history - shaky jumps, unconvincing presentation, and abnormally weak spirals and layback. In the SP, Slutskaya was undoubtedly better. Kwan may have had the URed flip, but the rest of her elements were superior and she deserved 5.9s for presentation while Bute shouldn't have gotten more than 5.7. A similar case can be made for Cohen over Butyrskaya.

    Hughes was probably worse than Butyrskaya in the SP, but the same can be said about Sebestyen and Suguri, so I would not even say Butyrskaya was robbed in the 2002 SP.

    In 2000 Worlds, Kwan deserved the title. In my opinion, Slute skated well in the freeskate - not her best, but better than Bute. I would have had Gusmeroli above Butyrskaya in the free as well, though maybe not enough to bump her onto the podium.
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I know I will take some heat for the following post and some will probably call me a Maria hater (which I am not, although she isnt a favorite of mine either), the same way I have been wrongfully dubbed a Suguri hater in the past (also not true), and an Ando hater (well this is true, I concede that, lol) but here goes. I always thought the Russians were wise to promote Slutskaya over Butyrskaya. They were looking who would be a bigger threat for big titles, or a bigger threat to someone like Michelle Kwan. It makes sense the more athletic and technically strong skater who was also alot younger would be their choice, vs a semi good artistic skater with so so technical skills and terrible nerves and who was already old. Sorry to be so blunt but I think that goes along with their line of thinking and why they suppored Irina more. Politically and overall it was smart. They had more to work with with her, and it is easier to promote a skater who can outjump and outdo all the others in technical elements (Kwan included) and try and hype up her so called improved (even if not ever really good) artistry, then try to sell the skating establishment on mid to late 20s skater who was like a poor womens Kwan or Chen minus the nerves.

    I think from 94-97 Maria was held back a bit by her federation. However when she had opportunities like the 95 Europeans, 96 Europeans, and even 96 Worlds, 97 Worlds, she often didnt really step up to the plate. Sometimes she almost did, but not quite, and other times it was a meltdown. She showed improved consistency but also interspersed were enough epic meltdowns- 95 Europeans LP, 96 Europeans LP, 96 Skate America, 97 Europeans SP, to prevent any increased confidence in her. The 96-97 season where Irina started a massive slump and Maria skating fairly well through the season still was consistently finishing behind her also gave little reason to think much of increased push for Maria. Then from 98-2000 Maria finally got her chance as Russian #1, or maybe co-#1 with Irina in the 99-2000 season. She did some good things with it but again blew big opportunities- the 98 Olympics where she had a medal with even a 60% performance but instead gave a 55% one, the 99 GPF which she totally blew and lost to Malinina although redeemed herself in a huge way at Worlds, and her general skating in the 99-2000 season as reigning World Champion which until Worlds where she performed decently in defeat was otherwise a joke.

    Failing to defend her 2000 World title was basically the end for her. Had she just done one more triple she probably would have been placed 2nd in the LP and defended her title, and given that it was a strong event would have increased her credability a great deal. However once she lost that, and Irina had basically proven herself to be the stronger skater and competitor through the whole season once again, it was back to all Irina from there. Even as Russian #2 Maria still had some big opportunities to establish herself again, the 2001 and 2002 GPF and 2001 Europeans especialy, all events she could have possibly won given the level of skating, and failed miserably to do. So while she might have been a victim of Russian internal politics, she also just didnt give the Russian fed. much to offer even at her best as far as what it took to challenge the best in the rest of the World, and even when she had opportunities she often blew many of them both when she was in favor and when she wasnt but could have gained some.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2013
  16. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Active Member

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    Maria deserved the 2000 World title since she should have been 2nd in the long to win overall. A few others maybe. Other than that mostly no. She was a pretty average skater, nothing stood out.
     
  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I disagree on the grounds that this could be said of any Soviet/Russian female singles skater at the international level prior to Maria. I think the punitive behavior of that federation really handicapped the female skaters psychologically, Maria and Kira Ivanova in particular.
     
  18. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I fail to see how Buyrskaya should have beaten Slutskaya in the FS. Slute had two clean triple lutzes, all different triples, two difficult combinations with the loop at the end. Bute had no triple sal, no real jump combination...I don't think a single judge placed her 2nd in the FS.



    Yeah, an average skater with plenty of Grand Prix Gold Medals, 3 Euro titles and World title. LOL...
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How do you believe Maria and Kira were treated wrongly by the Russian federation exactly?
     
  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Both were restricted from international competition after under performing although few ever performed better. Fear of punishment in addition to failure is not the best way to support some athletes.
     
  21. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Both were restricted from international competition after under performing and thinking different although few Russian singles women ever performed better. Fear of punishment in addition to failure is not the best way to support some athletes.
     
  22. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I do agree about the 96 and 97 worlds for Bute over Slute and Gusmeroli respectively (she tanked the long). 2000 worlds you can argue, but really her performance there in the LP was pretty awful. I agree the judges didn't want that kind of program with mistakes to win.

    You can argue for silver at 01 worlds and third in 98 Olympics, but Bute let her nerves once again overtake there when it should've been simple for her to place higher.
     
  23. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Totally lost interest with that ridiculous overrated cow remark!! Op is horrible slutskaya hater and can't deal with slutskaya being better than Maria.
     
  24. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

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    Reasonable arguments could be made in support of:

    1996 Worlds bronze
    1997 Worlds bronze
    1998 Olympics bronze
    2000 NHK gold

    1998 worlds - even if Maria deserved 2nd in the long, 5th place in the short program may have been a little too high for a completely popped combination.
     
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think people are re-writing history a bit for Maria Butryskaya at 2000 Worlds. I'm only talking about the LP results here and I thought Gusmerolli should have beaten Maria Butyrskaya in that phase of the competition. It's arguable, but Irina (though didn't perform up to her 2000 GPF standards) had a really solid performance with six triples and two triple/double combinations. Also, Irina did take two ordinals away from Kwan, who had an excellent performance (though I disagree with that). Did Bute take any ordinals away from Kwan?

    Plus, I'm sorry, but it's not as if Bute skated a routine on the level of Otonal or 17 Moments in Spring. She skated a blah version of Swan Lake, so she didn't really have an artistic edge with that LP. I hate to admit that because I loathe Irina's Carmen (especially that combo spin set to the very dramatic part of the Carmen and rushed ending and weird happy pose after she "stabbed" herself). I thought Gusmerolli was much more compelling than Bute that night even if she sort of front-loaded that routine and performed most of her spins at the very end of that routine.

    If anything, Bute wasn't robbed of winning gold by placing second in the LP, she robbed Gusmerolli of a higher LP placing.
     
  26. poths

    poths Well-Known Member

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    The fed dumped her because she didn't even qualify for the free at 1993 worlds which meant there was no Russian lady at 1994 Olympics despite the fact that Markova and Butyrakaya finished 3rd and 4th at euros a moth before the Olympics :(

    Slutskaya and Markova were pushed to the fore in 1995 and 1996, the fed were looking towards soldatova and sokolova in 1998....Slutskaya bombed natiionals in 1999, didn't make the world team and Maria was given full support from the fed..Tada ...gold
     
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    It was such a shame that both Markova and Butyrskaya couldnt go to the 1994 Olympics (which they would have had Maria been top 10 at the 93 Worlds as she should have been capable of). They would have added an interesting subplot to the event, and they could have been the dark horses of that competition. Some of the judges had Markova and-or Butyrskaya above Baiul in the LP at Europeans and Baiul Europeans LP was actually better than her Olympics LP she won gold with, despite that she lost Europeans to Bonaly. It was especialy a shame for Markova whose peak was definitely 94-95 as her consistency gradually dissapeared to the point she was often struggling to land 1 or 2 clean triples in a long program in later years.
     
  28. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I also agree that Bute should have been second in the free (even if third, she should be below Gusmeroli, not Slutskaya), but Kwan should also have been second in the short, and so I think ultimately Kwan's win was right.

    The podium was right anyway, because Gusmeroli bombed qualifying.
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2013
  29. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Active Member

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    I might have had Kwan 2nd in the short over Slutskaya had her triple flip been squeeky clean but while it was still technically clean it had a bit of a wobbly landing if I recall. So because of that I put her 3rd in the short behind Irina, rather than 2nd.
     
  30. ohashibiles

    ohashibiles Active Member

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    Irina had only 1 more triple, and maybe not even that since her 2nd triple lutz was two footed so both really had only 5 clean triples. Maria's artistry is better so would give her 2nd in the freeskate based on the 2nd mark tiebreak. Then since I agreed with the qualifying and short program results that would lead to Maria winning overall based on factored points.

    Maria mostly won medals and on rare occasion titles when other skaters F-ed up. She never won them purely on her own merit. Look at he Worlds she won. Yeah she skated well but it was a really weak field. Other than Kwan nobody was there. No Lipinski, no Cohen, no Slutskaya, and most of the ones there were either slumping, too old, too young, or strictly second tier. Even though she did beat Kwan who knows if she would have still won had Kwan skated 2 clean programs as well, maybe she still would have but maybe not.

    Then her European titles, even more the joke. At 98 Europeans she had a great long but was 5th or 7th in the short I think it was after 2 falls but won from there since Bonaly, Szewpenko, and Slutskaya skated so bad in the long she could come back from there. At the 99 Europeans it was a nothing field and she didnt do as good a long as Worlds with only 4 triples clean. At the 2002 Europeans she did a bad long and only won since Slutskaya fell in the short.

    What is special about her skating. Not jumps, not spins, certainly not spirals. Artistry is ok but nothing amazing. People just like her since she is pretty and she is a great fighter who other than her problem with nerves made the most and got more than she ought to out of limited talent. I also heard she said something that she never wanted her son to be gay which indicated she was homophobic too, nothing to do with her skating yeah but makes it harder for me to like her.