Which of these jump "firsts" was the most significant and impressive?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jan 15, 2013.

?

Which of these jump "firsts" was the most significant and impressive?

Poll closed Feb 15, 2013.
  1. Brandon Mroz - First Quad Lutz

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  2. Miki Ando - First and only Quad Jump (4S) by a Lady

    8 vote(s)
    5.2%
  3. Kurt Browning - First Quad Jump (4T)

    24 vote(s)
    15.5%
  4. Donald Jackson - First Triple Lutz

    5 vote(s)
    3.2%
  5. Vern Taylor - First Triple Axel

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Grzegorz Filipowski - First Triple-Triple Combination

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  7. Dick Button - First Double Axel & First Triple Jump (3R)

    47 vote(s)
    30.3%
  8. Cecilia Colledge - First Double Jump (2S) by a Lady

    3 vote(s)
    1.9%
  9. Petra Burka - First Triple Jump (3S) by a Lady

    2 vote(s)
    1.3%
  10. Midori Ito - First 3A by a Lady & First Triple-Triple Combination by a Lady

    60 vote(s)
    38.7%
  11. Denise Biellmann - First Triple Lutz by a Lady

    1 vote(s)
    0.6%
  12. Elvis Stojko - First Quad Jump in Combination (4T+2T)

    3 vote(s)
    1.9%
  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,463
    I admire Miki for trying them, but her attempts are all under-rotated, I feel bad for Surya Bonaly, she would have been credited for the first quad. ;)
     
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,040
    I totally agree. That 4T was clean.
     
  3. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,014
    I admire Miki for going for the quad, regardless of whether it was fully rotated or not. This is the kind of attitude - challenging oneself to do more and more difficult jumps- has disappeared with the coming of COP.
     
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,705
    Apparently, national pride, like love, makes one blind.

    Ando did fully rotate that quadruple salchow in the Junior Grand Prix Final. Go back and look at the video in Post #1 and then check the protocols. IIRC, she also landed one at Japanese Nationals. She never did a fully rotated one in senior-level international competition, though.

    Bonaly's quadruple toe loop attempts in competition were a bit short on the final rotation, though if they were being judged under CoP, they might be marked as "4T" rather than "4T<."
     
  5. Skate Talker

    Skate Talker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    4,882
    I have to go with Donald Jackson. It was so clean and so integrated into a clean as a whistle performance. It stole the show and the gold medal from certain defeat. It was widely seen and therefore had great effect.
     
  6. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,463
    National pride ? PML ! So, I guess you're from Japan ! ;)
    On this video you're talking about, you can clearly see she ends the rotation at 3.5 turn, then finishes the jumps on the ice.
    http://youtu.be/Fi1331g-qcI?t=24s
    Surya Bonaly's 4Toe are not any better, though.
     
  7. Tony Wheeler

    Tony Wheeler Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2001
    Messages:
    2,478
    As briancoogaert already pointed out, Ando's 'clean' quad Salchow was nowhere near clean. Second, the protocols? :huh: You do realize this was a 6.0-system competition, yes?
     
  8. care bear

    care bear Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    Messages:
    660
    I vote for 3 Lutz of Denise Biellmann because I can remember it very well and I loved her skating.
     
  9. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,737
    Miki Ando's quad at 2008 GPF was sooo close. Really I wish they gave her the benefit of the doubt one of the best attempts at the quad in ladies skating.
     
  10. Lainerb

    Lainerb New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,737
    Miki Ando's quad at 2008 GPF was sooo close. Really I wish they gave her the benefit of the doubt one of the best attempts at the quad in ladies skating. Despite the rotation issues in that program it was so technically ambitious.
     
  11. AYS

    AYS Cruder than you thought

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2002
    Messages:
    19,773
    For me, it is hands down Dick Button's achievement(s), especially since the poll included both his double axel and triple loop.
     
  12. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    What??? Credited by blind judges? Or corrupt French ones? Miki's 4s is high and she has the quad technique. IIRC what Surya saw fit to include in her programs as "quads" were unfortunate.
     
  13. Akira Andrea

    Akira Andrea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,463
    I would like to evaluate Miki Ando very much because she was the only woman who not only succeeded the quad Salchow jump in the ISU official competition in 2002 under old judging system but also continued to challenge it till the very recent year such as 2008 under the new judging system which was adopted from 2004.
    Almost women did not even attempt the quad except Miki Ando, because they were afraid of the 'downgraded evaluation' which may suffer under the new judging system.
    I think that Miki Ando is the true athlete which has the courage not to fear even risk to challenge a difficult skill.
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2013
  14. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2007
    Messages:
    2,358
    I know it's not on the list, but David Jenkins' 3axel in 1957! :eek: It wouldn't be landed in competition for more than 20 years, and not with as good of a landing (OK, David's takeoff is a funky looking and pre-rotated, but come on :p).

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2unFSmlNjI
     
  15. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,089
    I am surprised he never attempted that in competition because it wasn't bad at all.
     
  16. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    Messages:
    2,343
    Can't believe there's even a question, Dick Button of course, hands down. Period.


    Btw, David Jenkins 3axel was G-O-R-G-E-O-U-S!!!!! :respec::encore::hat1::cool:
     
  17. Kasey

    Kasey Loving on babies!

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2004
    Messages:
    12,109
    Other: First wuz-robbed of jump history (Sabovcik's 4T jump in competition a year or two before Browning's that wasn't ratified due to camera angle)
     
  18. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2011
    Messages:
    3,705
    &#26085;&#26412;&#20154;&#12376;&#12419;&#12394;&#12356;&#12424;. &#12450;&#12513;&#12522;&#12459;&#12398;&#12487;&#12473;&#12424;. :p

    (For those who don't know, I'm an American and not particularly a fan of either Ando or Bonaly.)

    Okay, I confess. I watched this video a few times too many and got mixed up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xR68Q4X45hg

    :eek:

    The video in Post #1 isn't from the Junior Grand Prix Final; I think it's from 2003-04 Japanese Nationals. The JGPF jump is shown at about 15 seconds into the video to which I have linked. To my eye, it looks like four full rotations. As for most of the other attempts on that video, the less said the better. :shuffle:

    Make up your mind.
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  19. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,661
    Well, if Bonaly's and Ando's attempts were equally bad, then either neither of them should be credited or Bonaly's should be credited as the first quad by a woman because it was earlier, and Ando could get "first quad salchow by a woman."
     
  20. Akira Andrea

    Akira Andrea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,463
    I'm sorry but I can't agree your opinion which assume that Ando's attempt was bad, because it's an unquestionable fact on the history that Ando' attempt had been credited by ISU.

    The quotation from Surya Bonaly's wikipedia
    http://www.microsofttranslator.com/bv.aspx?from=ja&to=en&a=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surya_Bonaly

    The quotation from Miki Ando's wikipedia
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miki_Ando
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  21. Katarzyna

    Katarzyna Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,137
    I voted for Midori Ito! The time when she started landing triples axels some men would have killed someone to have that kind of jump. :)
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,631
    Thanks for clearing that up Vagabond and apologies for the error. The link in post 1 is from the Junior Japanese Nationals 2003/04 and has not been properly labelled by the YouTube uploader. Apologies for not noticing.

    Here is the correct link again (thanks again, Vagabond):-

    Miki Ando - JGPF 2002/03 - 4S (First & Only Quad Jump By A Lady) - 15 seconds in

    Unfortunately, Jenkins never performed it in competition. Hence, for the purposes of this thread it does not count, as the thread only focuses on competition firsts. Nevertheless, as you point out, he landed it over 20 years before it was landed in competition. Hence, extremely impressive!!
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  23. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    1,592
    Most significant: Dick Button
    Most impressive: David Jenkins
     
  24. Nours

    Nours Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2004
    Messages:
    600
    But Bonaly's quad at 1991 worlds was sooo close to be fully rotated, only a very tiny less than a 1/4 rotated on the ice for me. It should had been credited.
    I never liked Ando and her performances disapeared from my memory as soon as she was leaving the ice but I have to say she must be credited for trying quads. Her attemp at 08 GPF was nice. The thing is I'm always a bit reluctant to call a jump a quad when you almost do one revolution on the ice. The landing is almost the same as Bonaly's at 1991, just the tiny bit more, though the video's quality isn't great. And a big laugh at wikipedia entries ! Seriously, does anyone trust such websites ? Why not trusting Google too. It's not because "journalist" does it we should all do it. Anyway anything is good to poo on Bonaly back then & now.
    As for the one credited by the ISU, it's nowhere near a full quad for me. She starts the jump facing it (yes, I know, it's a salchow, still more than 1/3 on the ice before jumping is too much to credit anything) and the landing is clearly not complete. The video isn't very good though.
    It's a matter of who performed them rather than how it was performed, and in Bonaly's case it's easy to see why it wasn't ratified. What I don't understand is why they didn't give Sabovcik his quad.

    The first quad for men IMO is either Sabovcik or if you think it wasn't then it's Urmanov, I can't think of somebody else trying them successfully enough in between.
    Didier Guaillaguet in one of his early book ("Les secrets du patinage" writed with Jean Marquet, 1979) says Ronnie Robertson landed several triple axel during training sessions. He also says Ronnie landed a quad loop in 1974 on Lake Placid's olympic ice. He saw this one by himself and actually taped it. R.R. was 37 yo.

    As for the triple toe, DG saw Tom Litz landing one during his 1964 olympic FS. Actually I never thought about it but there was such a huge hype surrounding the men event that year in France, because of Calmat, that I'm pretty sure they have a nice coverage of it. One more lost treasure (and pretty sure we can add 1964 euros in Grenoble to the list too).
    Last bit which is not really related to this thread (sorry) : he says Nepela fell once within eight long years of internationals competitions :respec:.
     
  25. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2003
    Messages:
    10,661
    I skimmed through that book in 1998 and was surprised to read that part. I mentioned it on rec.sport.skating.ice.figure, and one of the other posters there who skated at the rink where Robertson was teaching at the time asked him about. Robertson did confirm that he had done quad loops.
     
  26. Akira Andrea

    Akira Andrea Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,463
    Under the old judging system, Miki Ando is the only woman whom ISU gave credit for having succeeded in the quad jump.
    It is true that ISU evaluated the Miki Ando's quad under the 'new judging system' as the under-rotated jump, nevertheless it is not fair to compare the 'Miki Ando's under-rotated quad' under the new judging system with the 'Surya Bonary's under-rotated quad' under 'the old judging system' as the equal attempt.
    Under the new judging system, it is because the risk which the player in case of having failed the attempt may suffer increased remarkably than before.

    It is the obvious cause that no woman came to challenge the quad jump except Miki Ando after having adopted the new judging system.
    Under the new judging system, Miki Ando could not succeed in the quad, but she was evaluated as having succeeded in the under-rotated quad by ISU at least.

    Under the new judging system, there is no woman whom ISU gave credit for having succeeded in the quad jump, and Miki Ando is the only woman whom ISU evaluated as having succeeded in the under-rotated quad jump.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2013
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    It annoys me to no end that Miki Ando is credited as the "first and only lady to have landed a quad" when her "quad" salchow was nowhere near fully rotated. :mad:

    Out of those listed, I'd pick Ito's incredible, huge and solid 3axel. :)
     
  28. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,040
  29. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,463
    My opinion is that Surya's and Miki's quads are equally as under-rotated.
    So, if Miki, why not Surya ? ;)
     
  30. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    1,125
    Ladies:

    Most important =

    gold - Colledge (first to make jumps an important part of ladies skating)
    silver - Burka (first triple)
    bronze - Biellmann

    most impressive = Ito! (since 3ax are still so rare for ladies her jump isn't necessarily so significant)

    most robbed = Bonaly (I think they just flat out decided ahead of time they weren't going to ratify any attempt of hers)

    Men (most important)

    gold - Button (invented modern freeskating
    silver - Taylor (since 3ax's became so important for men)
    bronze - Filipowski (more's the pity that 3-3's aren't more imporant for men than big ugly quads

    most impressive = Jenkins! (honestly! considering that jump training was so basic then his 3ax is about the equivalent of a 4-4 (or quint) would be now)

    most robbed = Sabovcik
     
    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.