Which of these events would Sasha have won skating cleanly

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by KimGOAT, Apr 9, 2013.

?

Which events would Sasha have won skating cleanly with others skating exactly as did

Poll closed May 14, 2014.
  1. 2003 U.S Nationals

    74 vote(s)
    52.1%
  2. 2003 Worlds

    70 vote(s)
    49.3%
  3. 2004 GPF

    66 vote(s)
    46.5%
  4. 2004 U.S Nationals

    78 vote(s)
    54.9%
  5. 2004 Worlds

    84 vote(s)
    59.2%
  6. 2005 U.S Nationals

    92 vote(s)
    64.8%
  7. 2005 Worlds

    10 vote(s)
    7.0%
  8. 2006 Olympics

    107 vote(s)
    75.4%
  9. 2006 Worlds

    119 vote(s)
    83.8%
  10. 2010 U.S Nationals

    36 vote(s)
    25.4%
  11. none of the above

    5 vote(s)
    3.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Cheylana

    Cheylana Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2004
    Messages:
    4,948
    Well, I didn't vote for Sasha to have won any of those events. In 2003, I don't think Sasha's basic skating was going to hold off Kwan. In 2004, was Sasha still going for the triple lutz-triple toe? If so, then maybe she would have passed Kwan, otherwise I think not. As for 2010, Sasha's program didn't look very COP-ready (didn't she have some level ones in the freeskate?), so I didn't think she would have collected enough points to pass Rachael. I do see a clean Sasha getting ahead of Mirai, though, because of the factors you mentioned above.
     
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,501
    LOL
    Did you watch Kwan's LP at 2004 US Nationals ?
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  3. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Sasha's "basic edges and stroking" would not have held her back from anything if she would have just stopped falling.
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,566
    I think it is more she has great confidence in the level of skating Sasha was capable of post 2003, than dissing Kwan in anyway. Personally Sasha was never my cup of tea and I never got the hype about her to begin with.
     
  5. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,501
    I agree that judges seemed to want to give titles to Sasha, only from 2003-2004 season. But she never did enough to receive the high marks judges wanted to give her, lol.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,566
    I think they wanted to give her all the titles (Nationals, Worlds, GPF, Olympics) in the 03-04 season and 05-06 seasons both. Not so sure about the 2002-2003 season, and not really the 2004-2005 season either (although if she skated well she would have had to win Nationals this year as Kwan's LP was nothing great). As you said she could never justify it though with her performances. I find this poll offensive in many ways as it almost implies the winners of various events should feel lucky that Sasha "never skates clean" didnt skate clean.
     
  7. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    843
    I once read some youtube quotes that even if Cohen hadn't made those errors, her points would still fall short of Arakawa's because Arakawa's choreography and execution put her ahead anyways. I wonder if that's true. I would personally think so as I think Arakawa's edging is stunning (she gets so deep in the knees). I find Sasha's edges very shallow.
     
  8. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Quick, someone do study of the scores...
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,566
    Sasha definitely would have won the 2006 Olympic Gold had she landed those 2 jumps and done as planned. Her first jump was supposed to be a triple lutz-double toe-double loop combo so 4 points (3 for the -GOE for a fall and 1 additional for falling) + 2.8 points (the value of the double toe-double loop). Her 2nd jump miss was 2.86. So now 9.66 total. Add as much as up to 4 points (an average of .5 more on all PCS categories as a generous guess) and maybe of jump GOE (she usually gets almost none and her flutz is negative usually) and she might gain up to 14 points, while she lost by only 8. However that is Sasha doing 7 triples and Shizuka doing only 5, when Shizuka is capable of not only 7 herself but with triple-triples to boot. Why assume Sasha who never does clean LPs going clean and not make the same consideration for other skaters who actually have and can.
     
  10. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    843
    Exactly. If Sasha had skated clean, perhaps Shizuka would've pulled out the big guns and went for 2 triple triple combinations. I remember watching her do amazing triple-triple-triple combinations in practice. I was most impressed with Shizuka's spiral at those Olympics. Not only did she hold the position for a really long time but the edge control was amazing (much more so than Cohen's) and the pattern she made was absolutely gigantic. That to me is more important to a good spiral than how high you can lift up your free leg. Sasha's positions were gorgeous but I found her edges wimpy and the pattern she made wasn't nearly as impressive. I also thought Shizuka had higher and more powerful jumps. Did she have any issues with flutzing like Sasha did?
     
  11. Gabybackhand

    Gabybackhand Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    125
    The idea each event was Sasha's to win or lose was a joke. Slutskaya, Kwan, and Arakawa at their best would all beat her at her best, and so would Kim, Asada, and possibly Hughes, so how was any event hers to lose. The only one that was is 2006 Worlds but that is only because NOBODY was there. Yes she would have won the 2006 Olympics had she skated her best, but that is only because Slutskaya and Arakawa didnt. As it was Sasha and Shizuka both did 5 triples so skated equally clean essentialy and Shizuka won easily. Shizuka was capable of 7 triples and 3 triple-triples vs Sasha 7 triples and 1 triple-triple so Shizuka was the one capable of more and who skated even further from her hypothetical clean or best as it was. She would have probably won the 2004 Worlds with a clean skate but that is only since Shizuka was a nobody at the time and Sasha would be gifted it even her going clean due to being the heir apparent, and since the judges were tired of Kwan on top and why she wouldnt have won either, not really since Sasha was neccessarily best skater just the chosen one. As for Nationals if both Sasha and Michelle skate clean it is who the USFSA wants to win each time, so I dont really care each way. Only international competitions are meaningless, when more than one top skater per country at NAtionals the federation favorite, whoever that is, always win. As it was Michelle skated much better each time and it didnt even go there so who cares.
     
  12. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,671
    Shizuka may have skated clean jumps, but she did four donut spins (the logic of which escapes me.) Sasha had a very difficult variety. Remember that Evan won because of his strength in spins. Spins count.
     
  13. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2006
    Messages:
    843
    So do edges. Shizuka's edges were beautifully deep and strong. Sasha's edges were shallow and wimpy. Shizuka also didn't have issues with flutzing that I could see at that competition, unlike Sasha.