Which of these events would Sasha have won skating cleanly

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by KimGOAT, Apr 9, 2013.

Which events would Sasha have won skating cleanly with others skating exactly as did

Poll closed May 14, 2014.
  1. 2003 U.S Nationals

    74 vote(s)
    52.1%
  2. 2003 Worlds

    70 vote(s)
    49.3%
  3. 2004 GPF

    66 vote(s)
    46.5%
  4. 2004 U.S Nationals

    78 vote(s)
    54.9%
  5. 2004 Worlds

    84 vote(s)
    59.2%
  6. 2005 U.S Nationals

    92 vote(s)
    64.8%
  7. 2005 Worlds

    10 vote(s)
    7.0%
  8. 2006 Olympics

    107 vote(s)
    75.4%
  9. 2006 Worlds

    119 vote(s)
    83.8%
  10. 2010 U.S Nationals

    36 vote(s)
    25.4%
  11. none of the above

    5 vote(s)
    3.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    Some have said every event from 2003-2006 was Sasha's to win or lose. Is this true. Which of the events that quad would she have won with a clean skate given how her competitors skated (this isnt speculating if the others who made mistakes like Irina and Shizuka at the 06 Olympics didnt make them). I picked everyone of them except for the 2005 Worlds. Every other was hers to lose I think.
     
  2. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    I think the most obvious of all are the 2004 GPF and 2010 Nationals as both were won by poor skaters. Both Suguri and Flatt have no jumps, no style, no artistic, no spins. The rest atleast are interesting debates as were won by good skaters.
     
  3. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    ^^^ This :scream:
     
  4. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

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    OK they have jumps, just not good ones.

    Flatt has small jumps and is very inconsistent jumper.
    Suguri has ok height on some of her jumps but a flutz, mediocre jump content, and inconsistent.

    The jumps are probably their main strength though but both struggle with shaky spins, and lack of artistic in their skating. Suguri has good speed and basics, but not even good footwork to go with that.
     
  5. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I think with clean skates, she most certainly would have won 2004 and 2006 worlds, and 2003 and 2005 National championships, and the 2006 Olympics. I feel in 2003 and 2004 the US judges REALLY wanted her to be US champion but I am not sure she could have won the LP in 2004-Kwan was great in the LP. Sasha's was more difficult but Michelle's was so emotional I think that may have played a factor. In 2005 Kwan had her worst choreographed program ever and only landed 5 triples- I think a 6 triple clean program from Sasha would have won. 2006 Olympics with Shizuka only landing 5 triples with no 3/3, Sasha would have won with a clean 7 triple R&J. She was truly her own worst enemy on the ice.
     
  6. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Definitely not 2003 Nationals and Worlds. That was clearly Kwan's come back season and she was solid as a rock at those events so I don't think Sasha could have beaten her in the US even if she was clean herself. She was not even half the darling in the US as Michelle was in 2003.

    Same for 2004 Nationals. 2004 Worlds marked the start of the demise of Kwan (at least in terms of love and respect for her) on the international scene so I think Sasha would have been able to win everything thereafter if she was clean. The only exception being 2005 Moscow Worlds against Slutskaya. But anyways she would have won the big titles in 2006.

    If she had won 2010 Nationals and had gone to Vancouver, I think a clean Sasha could have won as high as silver, but not the gold with the way Yuna skated.
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think all of those except the 2005 Worlds, 2006 Olympics and 2010 Nationals, although there are some I am unsure of. My breakdown of each would be:

    2003 Nationals- Her SP scores with a stumble out of one of her jumps indicated she was winning the SP over a clean Kwan, and so I cant see her losing the LP with a triple lutz-triple toe to boot.

    2003 Worlds- The judges in the qualifying indicated the judges here were very luke warm to her, however Sokolova who is a terrible skater (sorry I love her but lets be real) took judges off Kwan in each round with her triple lutz-triple toe, so a clean Cohen with her triple lutz-triple toe, and all her spins and artistry would have pretty much had to be given a win over Kwan with only 6 triples and no triple-triple, even if Kwan was the judges preference.

    2004 Nationals/2004 GPF/2004 Worlds- No need to analyze each. It was clear Sasha was the judges pet this year (not that she wouldnt have deserved to win skating her best, but still judging favorites mean alot) and would have been given each title with a clean long program. Shizuka's LP at Worlds should have beaten a clean Sasha LP IMO for the gold but wouldnt have, but since Shizuka's SP was terrible and should have been about 6th or 7th and was held up to 2nd, I wouldnt have complained about the result despite that.

    2005 Nationals- With a clean skate, easy. Kwan wasnt even that good at Nationals for once, just better than Sasha it turned out.

    2005 World- No chance. Slutskaya had too much momentum and favor going for her to win unless she imploded badly.

    2006 Olympics- No win IMO. She skated before Shizuka. Had she skated clean, Shizuka would have done more and still beaten her.

    2006 Worlds- No brainer, easy win.

    2010 Nationals- I dont think she would have won even skating cleanly. She was a mediocre technical skater for 2010 standards even in a hypothetical clean, and contrary to the talk she would be a huge favorite of the USFSA still her PCS were almost the same as Flatt in the SP.

    BTW had Sasha been at the 2010 Olympics and skated cleanly I would see her coming only about 8th. Like I said a mediocre technical skater for 2010 standards.
     
  8. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    I think she would have won most events she entered if she skated cleanly, especially as, in the earlier years at least, she was trying triple/triple combos and sequences. Oh and the quad! imagine if she had of skated THAT program cleanly.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    She stopped trying the big jumps after the 2002-2003 season though. Never attempted them again.
     
  10. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course, Sasha Cohen had good jumps. ;)

    Anyway, I don't like Sasha's basic skating, but I'm sure she could have won 2004 Worlds and 2006 Olympics with no mistakes.
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  11. zaphyre14

    zaphyre14 Well-Known Member

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    Sasha who?
     
  12. AndyWarhol

    AndyWarhol Well-Known Member

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    yeah, as i said, the "earlier years".
     
  13. angelflies

    angelflies Active Member

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    The poll is funny and the poll results are even more funny.

    -How can anyone think a clean Sasha would have lost to Fumie at the 2004 GPF. Sasha fell 3 times over the 2 programs, and that is an automatic 12 points lost already, and she only lost by 5 points.

    -How can more people think Sasha would have lost a 5 triple Suguri at the 2004 GPF, than to Kwan at Nationals where Kwan is the all time judges pet and heroine, or than to a spectacular 7 triples and 2 triple-triple Arakawa at Worlds. Seriously.

    -How can anyone think Sasha would have won the 2005 Worlds. I know it is only a few votes, but it is pretty clear that is the one event she truly didnt have a hope on.

    -How can many more people think Sasha would have beaten Kwan in the U.S at the 2003 Nationals and Worlds, where she is beloved and showered with astronomical stores, at the 2003 Nationals and 2003 Worlds, than beat Rachel Flatt of all people at the 2010 Nationals. NBC basically bullied the USFSA to make sure Sasha made the team, and yet so few think a clean Sasha would win Nationals even with Nagasu and Czisny both blowing it.

    -How can anyone think Sasha would not have won the 2006 Worlds. She could have done her Olympic LP with the 2 falls and would have been given a 120+ and easily held onto her overall lead. Anyway had Meissner skated after a decent to great skate by Sasha she probably gets a 120 rather than a 130 score, and finishes below Suguri overall.
     
  14. miffy

    miffy Well-Known Member

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    I think all except 2005 Worlds, Irina was just too good that year.
     
  15. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Sasha was on fire during the 2002-2003 year up to Nats- she had just switched coaches to Tarasova and kicked butt in her GP's (2 gold and 1 silver where i really think she should have won) and won the GPF. Kwan had a really mediocre win at Skate America coming after her disappointing bronze at the Olympics the year before. I think she surprised everyone at Nats. I think Sasha would have won for sure with her 3/3 and a clean program-Michelle of course is always a contender but I really think it was Sasha's to lose. Of course, being a Kwan fan I was more than happy with the results and Michelle deserved her win with her beautiful short and long programs.. She did, I feel, leave the door opened just a bit for Sasha by only doing 6 triples and no 3/3.

    I think in 2010 it is just really hard to imagine her going clean so maybe people did not vote for that scenario. Even though we are supposed to be imagine she went clean LOL.
     
  16. angelflies

    angelflies Active Member

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    I am fine with some people thinking Sasha would have won the 2003 Nationals even over a great Kwan had she gone clean. What I dont understand, is way less people thinking she would have beaten Rachel bleeping Flatt (with all due respect to Rachel) in 2010 than Kwan at the 2003 Nationals. Of the two Rachel would be the way easier to beat, so atleast should have more votes for 2010 Nationals than 2003 I think. OK she was old, past her prime, and no longer an established World scene star in 2010, but it was reported NBC pushed the USFSA hard to put her on the team, and that was the hour delay to name the team even after she finished a lowly 4th at Nationals with a terrible skate. They were still thinking of putting her on the team even then, which shows how heavy her support behind the scenes was that year. The only person who could have beaten a clean Sasha at the 2010 Nationals was Czisny, if by some miracle she also had skated cleanly. Flatt is Flatt, the USFSA doesnt even like Nagasu over the years and are more than happy to take any and every downgrade they can from her at Nationals every year, and Wagner was never able to breakthrough against others around those years even though she was a good skater and when she did skate well.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2013
  17. centerstage01

    centerstage01 Well-Known Member

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    The judges were ready and willing to give Sasha the 2006 Worlds title on a platter wrapped up in a shiny gold bow. All she had to do was stand up. Instead, we got another deer-in-the-headlights performance and Kimmie Meissner took advantage of the situation. I think that was the point where I gave up on Sasha. I mean, I have always been a Kwan fan but I've liked a lot of Sasha's performances and her short and long programs that year were outstanding. In this instance, she had the opportunity to get that one major title she was missing and she still let her nerves get to her. Her major competition was gone, she was the big fish in the small pond, it was all there for the taking!
     
  18. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    No way. That gold was Sasha's to lose and she lost it like everything else.
     
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    IIRC, Irina Slutskaya got huge PCS in 2005-2006, she was virtually unbeatable that season, not Sasha.
     
  20. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    At the time of these events, Rachael Flatt was called the consistency queen. It wasn't until after olympics where she gained weight did she become inconsistent.

    I agree that Flatt lacked in artistic skating, but no way was she inconsistent. Even if sasha was clean in 2010, she would not have won.
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    That doesnt matter though as Irina skated poorly at the Games, and finished behind Sasha even with a fall and semi fall. The question is about beating Shizuka. Yes a clean 7 triple Sasha would beat a 5 triple Shizuka probably, but I am totally sure Shizuka would have done something more if she skated after Sasha skating better, and won anyway.
     
  22. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you, and I would have loved to watch Shizuka going to higher difficulties.
    But she looked so cautious, I'm not sure she could have done any better than she did. ;)
     
  23. Philly2034

    Philly2034 Banned Member

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    Wow. Interesting Thread.

    Actually, it would have been hard for Sasha to win a lot of events.

    2004 Nationals Michelle Skated out of her mind

    2004 Worlds Shizuka did the same

    2005 Worlds- Same

    2010 Nationals. Hmm. Interesting. I don't think she had a chance. Flatt was the heir apparent.

    In 2008, Flatt went clean and finished second to someone who fell.

    In 2009, Flatt went clean and finished second to someone who fell.

    So, in 2010, when Flatt went clean, there was not way on God's green earth that the judges weren't going to let her win.
     
  24. nicklaszlo

    nicklaszlo Member

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    Surely not obscure? And would probably have beaten Kwan...
     
  25. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. In 2002 & 2003 she was still perceived as having less than championship caliber edging and stroking. She was slower than ISU judges like in their champions and skated on flats a lot. She worked on those weaknesses and from 2004 -2006 got stronger and faster. The edges on her spirals and stroking were noticeably better. So I think pretty much anything from 2004 or maybe 2005 on was "hers to lose" except US Nationals which would have gone to Kwan as long as she competed regardless what anyone else did.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you on 2002 and 2003, but Cohens chances of beating Kwan at the 2004 and especialy 2005 Nationals, or beating Shizuka at the 2004 Worlds, are about 20 times higher than her chances of beating Slutskaya at the 2005 Worlds were. Still the only obvious events are the 2006 ones.
     
  27. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Here is a really, REALLY, non-technical overview of my speculations.

    2003 U.S Nationals -- Kwan was simply too good. Sasha could not have won even had she been amazing instead of falling and stumbling about in her blue and pee yellow dress.

    2003 Worlds -- Again, Kwan, reaching a new level of sophistication and technical confidence (certainly an unexpected improvement from her 2002 efforts), was just out of her league.

    2004 GPF -- Sasha would have won. The original Swan Lake was so good.

    2004 U.S Nationals -- She would deserve to win clean, but the fraudulent judging at US Nationals would go for Kwan anyway.

    2004 Worlds -- Since Kwan was not a factor at worlds in Dortmund, a clean Cohen would have been unstoppable--even with the scars that Wagner made on Tarasova's Swan Lake.

    2005 U.S Nationals -- If she did the Zueva beautiful Nutcracker Suite program without any falls, she might still have lost. The USFSA had a lot of interest in helping Kwan get a record breaking win.

    2005 Worlds -- Slutskaya received such incredible point totals and components scores for ragged programs that I don't know if regaining the points lost from Sasha's mistakes would be enough. Does anyone have a more technical analysis to add?

    2006 Olympics -- The judging looked in her favor after the SP scores. Her Romeo and Juliet was a classic, and had it been clean Arakawa would be the Olympic silver medalist. I feel bad thinking about this, because Arakawa owes a lot to other ladies' mistakes. I have such respect for her that I wish she could have won at a medal or two at a worlds-- or won a GPF or something--where her rivals did not kind of mess up.

    2006 Worlds -- This is a no brainer. Kimmie was not up to the job against a clean or cleaner Cohen

    2010 U.S Nationals -- If she skated less like someone who hadn't eaten in a long time, she could have placed first. Mirai and Rachael were more rushed/sloppy.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  28. falling_dance

    falling_dance D. Murakami's Newest Fan

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    For "fun", the marks of the top two skaters in the ladies' event at 2004 US Nats:

    Cohen (first skater of the final group)

    Technical merit: (1) 5.7 (2) 5.7 (3) 5.8 (4) 5.7 (5) 5.6 (6) 5.6 (7) 5.8 (8) 5.7 (9) 5.7

    Presentation: (1) 6.0 (2) 5.8 (3) 5.8 (4) 5.8 (5) 5.9 (6) 5.8 (7) 5.8 (8) 5.8 (9) 5.8

    Kwan (fourth skater of the final group)

    Technical merit: (1) 5.9 (2) 5.9 (3) 5.9 (4) 5.9 (5) 5.8 (6) 5.8 (7) 5.8 (8) 5.9 (9) 5.8

    Presentation: (1) 6.0 (2) 6.0 (3) 6.0 (4) 6.0 (5) 6.0 (6) 5.9 (7) 6.0 (8) 5.9 (9) 6.0

    Judge #7 had Kwan and Cohen tied on the technical merit mark.
    Judge #1 had Kwan and Cohen tied for presentation.
    All of the judges had Kwan in first place in the free skate and overall.
    All of the judges had Cohen in second place in the free skate and overall.
     
  29. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Was the Nationals version of Swan Lake already Wagner-fied? If no, perhaps a case could be made because she would have landed 7 triples to Kwan's 6 and had a great program to go against Kwan's decent program with wonderfule execution. Still, Kwan had such fire that night and was the latter skater to skate so I doubt the judges would have gone for Cohen even if the judging was clean.

    As to 2004 Worlds, I doubt a clean landing at the final 3sal would have made the difference. She didn't even beat Kwan in the free. I think Arakawa would have been the clear winner of the night even if Cohen was clean. And given how Kwan skated AFTER being disturbed by some streaker, and it was the last Worlds with 6.0s, the judges was always going to shower her with 6.0s regardless of what Cohen did. Wagner Lake was not 6.0 worthy at all. (Neither was Tosca but Kwan's interpretation and presence very much made up for it)
     
  30. Jarrett

    Jarrett Well-Known Member

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    After 2004 Sasha could have won everything until she retired; however she was NEVER clean so it is moot point. Really a waste of what could have been a standout career except 2010 Nationals. It was already over at that point.