Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

?

Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    51 vote(s)
    26.0%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.2%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.1%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.6%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.9%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.7%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.2%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,054
    That's true. Irina gained confidence when she was validated in the short, while Kwan preferred to attack rather than defend.
     
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,430
    But that is mostly due to 6.0 system, the mark was used to rank skaters.
    If this judge gave Irina 5.8-5.9 and thought Michelle was better, he needed to give her 5.9-5.9.
    This only if Michelle skated after Irina, and I don't remember that !
     
  3. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Yes Michelle was overscored in the short at SLC, but she may have skated a lot better going into the LP in second place. Some of her best skates have been when she was not in 1st in the short program. She always seemed a bit more motivated when she was coming from behind.

    I also agree with Irina skating better when she was in first place, although by the way she skated in the LP, she seemed to have known that Michelle fell in her long program. She was totally skating to not lose. I think that fall messed more with her head then being in second place in the short program.

    So we just cannot sit here and say if Michelle received lower marks in the short program, Irina would have won.

    The only thing I can agree with is that if the short program were scored "correctly", Sarah Hughes would NOT have won. No question.

    I think Michelle skated before Irina but I could be wrong.
     
  4. falling_dance

    falling_dance Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,306
    IIRC, the skate order of the final group was 1) Butyrskaya 2) Hughes 3) Sebestyen 4) Cohen 5) Kwan and 6) Slutskaya.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,366
    ITA with that part, and I think that is a large reason Hughes victory is not an especialy popular one among skating fans. It is not like she as obviously denied the enormously popular Kwan the gold medal as Tara did in 98, as Kwan denied herself with a fall and unexceptional free skate, and as she was 3rd she might not have won anyway. Tara's victory is far more appreciated than Sarah's despite that she is the one who directly denied the Kween what otherwise would have been an overwhelming and triumphant gold medal victory. Her technical issues which would be hammered under COP can be forgiven by most, as those were generally overlooked around then, but her undeserved 4th place in the short program, and the sheer luck of how the ordinals had to fit in such a perfect (and many ways controversial way) as far as others placings in both programs.
     
  6. Simone411

    Simone411 aka IceSkate98

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2007
    Messages:
    7,273
    Well, I'm afraid all the "what ifs" in the world is not going to change the way they placed. It could have possibly happened in a parallel universe, however.

    falling_dance, I believe that final group order is/was correct. :)
     
  7. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    704
    After watching the 83 Worlds and 84 Olympics I would change my vote to Sumners. How did she almost win Olympic Gold with that weak and shady performance. I didnt see the whole event but did everyone else suck. Even her Worlds win gold of performance wasnt that great but it wasnt too bad. Wasnt figures points carryover done by then, so that means she almost won with her free skating, not figures. She popped about 8 jumps into doubles or singles instead of triples and doubles and still was .1 from the Olympic Gold.
     
  8. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    704
  9. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    704
    Why do so many think Baiul had weak competition. She faced Kerrigan, Sato, Chen, Chouinard, and Bonaly all at their very best which makes a very deep field with many strong skaters.
     
  10. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    360
    I don't think Baiul had weak competition but it could have been better. If all the stars had aligned like almost all thought it would, Kerrigan would have won the 93 world title. Bonaly beat her twice at Euros, but Chouinard never hit 2 semi clean performances in an international competition, her inconsistencies were 10 times worse than Cohen a decade later. Sato was similar. Sato and Chen didn't really hit their peak till later (Sato as a pro and Chen in 95 and 96).
     
  11. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    360
    Sumners was the class of the field at the 83 worlds after Zayak withdrew , the only other skater who was in her league was Witt.
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,366
    Anyone from 1968 to earlier had weaker competition than anyone after 1968. That is what makes this poll and its options so silly to begin with. Weakest competition would be someone like Sonja Henie who win 13 World and Olympic titles in a row. That cant happen no matter how great you are unless you face literally nothing almost your whole career (I know she faced Colledge who is a great skater her final year, and Szabo her first year winning, and that is all). Peggy Fleming could have sat on the ice for 3 minutes, did 2 single toes, and still won the 68 Olympic Gold after the figures, so her competition was incredibly poor too. Everything in between all that was probably no better. Madge Syers found her competition so weak she got bored and decided to enter the Mens Championship one year.

    In modern times the weakest era was definitely the Fratianne-Poetzsch one though. Both mediocre skaters who were the cream of a crop who were either lovely but weak in figures, or even more mediocre than they were.
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,366
    I am not saying there werent many amazing skaters before 1968, just almost never more than one at a time.

    Syers in the 1900s, Szabo in the early to mid 20s, Henie in the early to mid 30s, Colledge and Taylor in the late 30s, Albright in the mid 50s, Heiss in the late 50s, and Fleming in the late 60s. Colledge and Taylor would have been the greatest rivalry in pre World War 11 days had it not been for the war.
     
  14. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    704
    Every era had lots of skaters who underperformed though. Who did Kwan face who was consistent. Only Lipinski and she retired at 15. Slutskaya is considered the next most consistent skater and when you think about it even she is a choker in big events. The only times she skated close to her best was the 2002 and 2005 Worlds, both which she won over Kwan.

    Some Kwan fans in this thread mocked Baiul by saying her chief rival was Kerrigan. Well Kwan's chief rival was Slutskaya who isnt even considered a top 20 skater all time today either. Apart from Lipinski 97-98 and Slutskaya 2000-2002, everybody Baiul faced- Sato, Kerrigan, Chen, Chouinard, Bonaly, were all better than anyone else Kwan faced. Those skaters are all better than Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Sokolova, and the rest. Chen is credited as Kwan's competition and not Baiul's but it was Baiul who faced much more of Chen in her prime than Kwan. Kwan faced Chen at her best competition ever- 1996 Worlds, but apart from that one instance, Chen skated better probably about 10 times in 93-94 when Baiul dominated than she ever did from fall 95 onwards when Kwan era began.


    I would say Baiul's competition > Kwan's overall, but neither should be the choice. So many skaters had worse competition than both. Kim getting any votes is the biggest joke. She had by far the hardest competition ever. Why do people only consider people the last 20 years? Anyone who knows about the sports history should know the sport is far more competitive in the post figures era than it ever was before, and in the days figures were 50-60% there was literally no competitive element at all. Fleming won the 68 Olympics by something like 130 points with a horrible performance, how can Baiul and Kwan and any modern day skater no have much tougher competition than her and the other old timers.
     
  15. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2012
    Messages:
    704
    It seems you are saying the Kwan era was better since people did more triples than before. Each era has more triples than the last though. Would you say Suguri is better than Fleming since she does 6 triples a program and Fleming does 0. It is just like today they do more triple combinations than ever and some women attempt 8 triples which never happened before, and also do the really hard spins and steps never done before, but does that make it better automatically? Not neccessarily, it just shows difficulty also naturally evolves over time. Someone like Suguri who is just a good skater, born at a time she skated in an era no women did triples wouldn't do any either. We know from her own era she would never do something groundbreaking in any era.

    As for comparing Kristi in Albertville to Michelle in Salt Lake City, Kristi was much better. She did a triple-triple toe vs a two footed triple toe-double toe that Kwan did, and artistically her program that year was much better than Kwan's Scheherezade which was like her most boring program ever along with Bolero. Kristi from 92 Olympics probably would have been good enough to beat Hughes in Salt Lake City.
     
  16. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2003
    Messages:
    10,054
    Why not? That's the same arguments people make about why Kim is so much better than say Sonja Henie who clearly dominated her field. My use of triples was to show how much more jumping content (and jumps were not enough to overtake Slutskaya and Kwan in their era) one needed to be competitive. I'm not saying that my rationale is arguing that Suguri (a bronze medalist-level skater in her prime or close to her prime and a top 10-13 past her prime...not counting her continuance past 2010) is a better skater than Peggy Flemming is disingenuous as I was only saying that as a group, the level of skating in the Kwan era was strong. As for skaters having more triples every generation, that certainly has not been consistently true post-2006. Although, I am also not taking into account the role COP has played in that.

    And as Kristi's Albertville performance being enough to beat Hughes LP outright . . . it's speculative, but I doubt it. Now here's the totally subjective part (that you invited in when talking about Kristi's program being more artistic than Kwan's), I found Kristi's amateur routines absolutely generic and void of any real expression or musicality. I do think, however, that she had great transitions. However, the choreography themselves aren't anything special. As blah as Kwan's Scheherezade ended up being, Kwan sold the routine, IMO. I mean obviously some people liked it (see Yu Na Kim's 2008-2009 LP).
     
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2013
  17. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    360
    The problem with comparing Chen in Baiuls era and then in 95 and 96, is that Chen was not at her peak then. Tehnically her jumps were great, she was consistent, and had nice artistry, but I don't think the judges saw her on the same level some of the fans did. When Chen debuted her Mendelsohn Sp and Last Emperor program it was almost like a brand new skater. Everything about her skating got bigger- her lines, her speed and even her jumps. She had a real command on the ice, that skating fans always talk about when they about her Rach program at worlds. Chen SHOULD have been a closer competitor to Baiul, just based on her consistency alone, but she really didn't have enough "ummph" to her skating yet or the political clout.