Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    52 vote(s)
    26.4%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.5%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.8%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.6%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    It's called presentation, not artistry, and I thought on that night, Tara's presentation was better than Michelle's. :shuffle: I agree that her marks at 2000 Worlds were ridiculous, though. Her presentation was on fire that night. I don't think her presentation has ever been better. Plus she was technically better than anyone else too. I think the judges were deluded into thinking Maria and Irina might go clean.
     
  2. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Why wouldnt they think that could happen. Irina had skated clean most of that season, and Maria had been on fire all week in practice and had her best ever short program. It was a surprise both didnt skate better than they did.

    As for Tara's presentation marks in Nagano, the judges are supposed to use the marks as a means to put the skater who they think deserves 1st there. Those judges who gave Michelle 5.8, 5.9 and felt Tara deserved to win overall based on superior technical and speed had to give Tara 5.9, 5.9 given the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. I doubt any judge actually thought Tara was better in artistic. Every single judge had them tied or lower on the 2nd mark. They just did as they were supposed to, use it to put the skater who they thought deserved to win that night 1st.
     
  3. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Irina skated clean MOST of the season? I really don't recall her skating clean nearly every competition that year. And Maria typically left her best on the practice ice.

    Maybe, maybe not. But presentation is the name of the second mark, not artistry. And I'd have given Tara a 5.9 for presentation.

    TL - 5.9., 59
    MK - 5.7,5.8
     
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Lyra Angelica was such a complete and well-constructed program. Her presentation was fantastic. ;)
     
  5. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I have a hard time believing that Irina did not go to every competition intending to be the winner and the star of the competition for every competition she entered, including every competition where Kwan was the favorite as far back as Jr competition. However, Irina did have the psychological barrier of being a Russian lady, which was the figure skating equivalent of being a barren women. Given her OGM potential, the silver at the 2002 Olympics was a disappointment although still a milestone for Russian Ladies Figure Skating, right up there with Ivanova's Olympic Bronze and Butryskaya's World Championship.

    I really think Michelle was motivated by "just doing her best" and showing she could be "perfect"; it was not about what others did. This is why she always performed cautiously when she actually cared about winning.

    Of course, they were both were overtaken by Tara, who Irina famously confronted in an elevator at 1996 Worlds by saying, "You are not supposed to be here," to which Tara replied, "YES, I AM!!!". Tara, as a competitor, really wanted to be better than everybody else, and was disgusted with anything less. I really think this disgust, which is often described as "hating to loose", that brought her over the top because it was a more powerful motivator than the affirmative "I want to be the winner" or the goal of a personal best.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  6. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have a source for this quote? I'm far from a Slutskaya fan but I've never seen a quote.
     
  7. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I stand proudly and stubbornly by my Nagano marks. ;)
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    bardtoob and (deleted member) like this.
  9. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Agreed. Poetzch was quite weak, and probably as strong of a skater as Hughes for her era.

    I find this 'weakest competition' question misleading. Often, a skater has a strong competition for two almost opposing reasons. Is it because the skater in question wasn't that strong, so the rest of the competition was consistently scored at a close level? Or is it because the rest of the field was actually strong?

    People may look at Baiul and Poetzch's eras, see the closely-debated results, and conclude these were competitive eras for them. However, this speaks more about Baiul and Poetzch's actual level then how strong their competition was. Kerrigan, Bonaly, Fratianne, Lurz, etc. weren't particularly strong competition and didn't really push the sport forward. They are all strong, respectable skaters in the grand scheme, but competition wise, not so much.

    And how do we define strong competition? Maybe by how much a quad's top skaters push skating to progress, through a combination of technical or artistic feats and/or strong consistency?
     
  10. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Despite how cautiously Lurz skated ALL THE TIME, it is worth noting that she did have a consistent 3Loop, which is probably what got her the World Silver.
     
  11. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    :)
     
  12. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Looking at her performances that others have posted it looks like all she had were jumps. Really slow spins, poor basic skating, no elegance or style, and small jumps with not good quality or speed.
     
  13. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, you made me watch part of that program again after me swearing I'd never sit through it again. :rofl: Thanks for the source. How rude. :eek: It's also :rofl: since Slutskaya looked like an 8 year old that year. I recall her dismissing her loss to Asada in a rather unsportsmanlike reply too.
     
  14. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Slutskaya was a gross and vile skater and one of the most overrated in history. I think many voting down Kwan's competition it is because they are not impressed with Slutskaya and she was Kwan's main competitor most of her career. So it isnt really a diss on Kwan herself, but on Slutskaya her main "competition".
     
  15. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Funny, because I consider that the "golden age" of ladies skating: Michelle, Tara, Irina, Maria, Sasha, Sarah, Cupcake, Baby Ballerinas--and Dick and Peggy. It doesn't get much better than that.
     
  16. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    You lost me at Sarah and Cupcake. Sokolova? Really? I think one's "golden age" can be traced more back to a person's age at the time of the skating than the actual skating.
     
  17. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I do think Cupcake's 2006 LP was one of the more inspired ones that season with one of the best choreographed FW sequences. That said, she wouldn't be in the top of that era for me even though I did think her 3/3s and bubbly personality was great to see in 2003.
     
  18. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Its a little odd because you have ceetain people saying 1995-2006 was the weakest era in ladies skating, but you also have alot of people saying 1974-1981 was the worst. I think the 89-94 era was the strongest, it started with the decline of the Europeans (and the end of East Germany) and ended with the resurgence of some former USSR skaters (Baiul)
     
  19. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I'm including personalities, rivalries and drama along with skating abilities. If based purely on skating, it's still the golden age to me if only because of Michelle and all of those who tried to knock her off her throne.
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Cupcake was adoreable and sweet, and a strong jumper, but I wouldnt really call her a "personality".
     
  21. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Lets be real people. Womens skating didnt actually become competitive until the early 80s. People like Fleming, Hamill, Schuba, and Poetzsch/Fratianne had way weaker competition than anyone starting with Witt would have. The two should be broken into two seperate categories, basically who had the least competiton starting in 1980/1981 when it started to become somewhat of a real competition.

    Fleming made 5 mistakes at the 68 Olympics and still won by 20 falls and won the free skate alone by probably another 5 falls so suffice to say she had no competition. Schuba faced some amazing free skaters but her figures gave her such a lead she was always 20 falls from losing. Again no competition.

    Hamill may be the first ever to have some competition since she did lose the 74 and 75 Worlds to two different women. Didnt she screw up 1 or more phase of both events though, so the losses were her own fault. Errath and DeeLeeuuw dont seem like tough competition to me.

    Poetzsch and Fratianne only had each other, and neither was even very good. Poetzsch only lost big events to Fratianne when she fell alot at the 77 and 79 Worlds.

    So it is stupid so many people are voting Kwan and Baiul. Even if they might have had weaker competition than other modern day skaters like Witt, Yamaguchi, Ito, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Kim, and Asada, they still had more than people before the no competition but pretty coronation century before competition days began in the 80s.
     
  22. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    I see when talking about SLC, the blatant overmarking Michelle received in the SP somehow didn't make it into your post? ;) I'm sorry but there is no way that SP deserved that 5.9 it got for required elements from one judge. It wasn't even close to it and wasn't even close to being the best SP of the night.
     
  23. Andofanatic

    Andofanatic Member

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    Kwan skated clean and well in the short of the 2002 Olympics but it was not the winning short. The Americans were all overmarked, half American Robinson was overmarked, and the Europeans all undermarked due to location of the event. The results of the short were:

    1. Slutskaya 6.0 elements, 5.8 presentation
    2. Butyrskaya 5.8 elements, 5.9 presentation
    3. Suguri 5.8 elements, 5.8 presentation
    4. Sebeysten 5.8 elements, 5.5 presentation
    5. Cohen 5.6 elements, 5.7 presentation
    6. Kwan 5.5 elements, 5.8 presentation
    7. Gusmeroli 5.5 elements, 5.6 presentation
    8-10. about 3 other skaters
    11. Robinson 5.0 elements, 5.2 presentation
    12-14. about 3 other skater
    15. Hughes 4.5 elements (all her elements except the layback and spiral sucked), 5.1 presentation (gross shoulder rounding parts in corner)


    The Americans had made the rules for the rest of the Games with the pairs event though. Give all Americans and Canadians huge marks, and all Europeans especialy Russians really low marks, or we will have a cow. The judges concurred the rest of the events.
     
  24. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

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    :rofl: Really? You'd better send the correct results off to the IOC and the ISU toot sweet, as they say. I'm sure they'll appreciate your success in investigative journalism, and will re-write the record books accordingly.
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  25. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    She wasn't the personality--Dick Button was!
     
  26. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Personally, I don't even find his marks to be that off. :shuffle:
    Hughes' placing may be a bit too harsh, though :lol:
     
  27. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Is that why the American judge placed Michelle third in the long program (after Irina) at SLC?
     
  28. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    He could afford that by placing Hughes ahead. In the SP, that judge placed Kwan ahead of Slutskaya (undeserved). Had that judge placed Sluskaya first in the SP, Slutskaya would have won the SP and with the LP won the Gold overall.
     
  29. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I doubt he had that all planned out in the SP. The point is that the Americans did not pre-determine the judging, as was claimed.
     
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Michelle would not have won the short program without an absurd 5.9 for required elements from one judge. Had it not been for that one mark Michelle would not have won the short as that judge already gave Irina 5.8, 5.9 then gave Michelle 5.9, 5.9. Only one other judge even gave Michelle a 5.8 for required elements, and the rest 5.7 or lower. It reminded me alot of the judge who gave Baiul an even more absurd 5.9 for technical merit in the free program, and without that one mark she would not have been the gold medalist and just like the 02 short program that judge had already given Kerrigan 5.8, 5.9; yet people chose to focus unfairly on Hoffmann rather than her.

    I am not sure however whether Irina would have still placed above Michelle in the free skate had the short program results been reversed. I am not even sure the performances would have been the same. Michelle might have come out on fire like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds. Irina probably also would have skated better, since her confidence seems to take a hit whenever she skates fairly well and doesnt win a short program.