Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    52 vote(s)
    26.4%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.5%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.8%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.6%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    The problem about Oksana Baiul is that she had great competitors against her, but I'll probably never know why she won.
    IMO, Surya Bonaly, Lu Chen or Yuka Sato outskated Oksana Baiul at 1993 Worlds and Lu Chen and Nancy Kerrigan outskated her at 1994 Olympics.
    Hahahaaaa
     
  2. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    She only lost when she F-ed up. None of her competition was ever good enough to beat her, which is not an indication of strong competition:

    1997 Worlds- lost since she blew combo in short, and doubled another jump in long.
    1999 Worlds- lost since she skated awful. Still won silver despite skating awful which says something.
    2000 Worlds- nearly lost by missing the triple flip in the short, but when she skated a clean long the judges gave her the title right away even skating first in the final flight.
    2002 Olympics- lost since she skated bad long.
    2002 Worlds- lost since she blew combo in short.
    2004 Worlds- lost since she skated bad qualifying, went overtime in short, and only did 5 triples and doubled major triple in the long.
    2005 Worlds- lost since she skated bad.

    The only time she didnt blow the title herself and was beaten by a competitor even skating fairly well was the 1998 Olympics, and even there her own skate was far from her best.
     
  3. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Sato did not skate good at the 93 Worlds. She did only 4 triples. tried no triple flip, stepped out of a jump, and did only triple loop combination in short. 1994 Olympics long program is a more realistic instance Sato outskated Baiul than the 93 Worlds, but there she had blown the short anyway, although she still should have been over Tanja and Katarina in the short which robbed her of a medal chance even with her blown short.
     
  4. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Doubling a jump in the lp at 97 Worlds didn't cost her the title. She won the long program there.

    Re: 2000 Worlds, they gave it to her right away, huh? I thought that her scores were actually low for that performance.
     
  5. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    I agree her 2000 Worlds LP performance was good enough for 5.9 technical and 6.0 artistic so the scores in a sense could have been even higher. That is aside my point though. I dont deny Kwan as a quality skater, probably top 5 all time. The thread is about her competition though. Her marks were still high enough to ensure her the win even skating first in the final flight, and even with the 2 short program leaders left, which shows even the judges considered nobody else as competition for her, as otherwise regardless of the quality of the performance the judges would leave room for others to have a chance to win if anyone was considered a threat.
     
  6. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    So you are saying that the judges were giving Michelle the title before Irina (especially) and Maria even skated? I totally disagree. Her marks were low BECAUSE she was the first skater..the judges had to wait to see how the other two did.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aY_9LvtnXn0 "The judges have room for maneuver.."

    There was plenty of room in the tech mark to place Irina above MK..and even some in the second mark.
     
  7. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Well we can feel free to disagree. After she skated and got her marks I already knew she had won. Maybe you didnt. To each their own. Disagree with the 2000 Worlds fine then though, it still wouldnt change my overall point with all the other examples I gave. For 10 years every event Kwan was hers to blow and lose on her own, or to win by standing up. She was her only competition. Some of that is how great she was of course, but that isnt a sign of strong competition, especialy in modern times when you dont expect that clear cut a scenario for such an extended length of time for anyone.
     
  8. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    After her loss to Maria in 99 and her loss to Irina at that ridiculous 99 GPF..MK won the sp and one of the lp's..MK was not seen as invincible and Irina was on the rise.
     
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    At this point, I feel that you are one of the biggest kwanatic ever.
     
  10. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    No, I am not a Kwanatic. I am a Michelle Kwan fan but far from a fanatic. If I were a fanatic I would just say she had the toughest competition ever and was the best spinner ever, and basiclally pick her in everything like her true fanatical fans do. I am grateful for her as she was the only skater from that era I could stand practically, which is why I voted for Kwan in this thread, not Kwan herself but the others of that era.

    Sloppy and no flow out of her jumps Slutskaya, storky and inconsistent as hell Butyrskaya, gangly and terrible jumper Hughes, Sasha splat Cohen. Yet some of her true fanatics will even say not only was that not among the weakest competition, but that this group was the toughest competition ever. Tara really needed to stick around longer, and Shizuka needed to get her shit together sooner, and give Kwan some real competition and a real long term rival, rather than the ISU created one with Slutskaya. Oh well.
     
  11. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    It is also funny to see many of the Kwan fans arguing her competition was super tough and the toughest ever by far in this thread, are the same ones who I remember in another thread a couple months ago saying the ISU elevated Slutskaya and invented her rivalry with Kwan, when Irina was not good enough to be one on the merits of her own skating (which I agree with by the way), all because they didnt want a 10 year Henie like run of dominance by Kwan and there was nobody else to challenge her. Now suddenly some of these same posters talking about her great and tough competition and field. Talk about a contradiction!
     
  12. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :huh: ISU invented rivalry :puppet:? Never heard that before, and think only a real rivalry existed dating back to circa 1993.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  13. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Remember how Kwan pretended to love Slutskaya and how they both told the press they were "like sisters"? Ira Slutskaya may have had an English-speaking persona that was slightly phonier than her native one, but I think those two were genuinely not rivals until 2001-2002. In 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 Slutskaya had to push herself technically and capitalize on the fact there were no other challengers (and the influence of the multiple Russian speaking federations). In 2001-2002, Slutskaya got a more interesting free program-- at least from an audience perspective--that combined her technical advantages with a little drama. I think the battle between them remained warm and friendly-- though highly neurotic--throughout the season because the two had spent so many years not being rivals. Their individual neuroses produced the irony that neither of them would take the Olympic Gold medal. Perhaps if it had been a more heated rivalry, where one or both really wanted nothing more than to deny the other of the Gold, it might have helped them competitively.
     
  14. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    How do you know she pretended? I think Kwan genuinely liked Slute very much. Remember at the time these skaters spent months touring together on COI. If Kwan and Lipinski could go to carnivals together on the COI tour, then I think she and Slute could have liked each other very much. Kwan is very easy to read and has trouble hiding her emotions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  15. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Lipinski and Kwan do not really like each other.
     
  16. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Was Kwan's "I like you" comment just a PR move? Are you calling her a liar?
     
  17. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    And we know this how?
     
  18. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Okay, I wouldn't do that, and I was not referring to any comments made by Kwan. But skating is an entertainment business. These girls were very young-- multimillionaires at age 15. People say things in public they don't mean, especially when they are packaged and sold teenagers. Is this news? We don't really need to discuss this further, and I've gotten us off-topic.
     
  19. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Really? I didn't think they were friends and I'm sure they were annoyed with each other's media attention and the rivalry wouldn't do anything to help that, but I didn't know it ever got personal.

    When was the last time they really had to deal with each other? Since they were in their teens during the height of the rivalry, I wonder if they'd get along better now as adults.
     
  20. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    They spoke at The RISE premiere..Tara posted a pic of the two of them together.
     
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't really see it as a contradiction because just because some fans argue that Slutskaya's rise was sort of artificial doesn't mean that the overall level of competition wasn't high. Maybe some of the more ardent Kwan fans are only arguing that Kwan was that much better to them during that period, but she still had to perform at a high level to actually win anything.

    Anyway, we obviously disagree about who had the weakest competition at the top and we all have our own rationalizations.
     
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am still amazed at the low number of votes for Poetzsch. I challenge anyone to watch a series of tapes from the 77 Worlds, 79 Worlds, 80 Olympics (and keep in mind watching Biellmann's wonderful free skating she sucked at figures in a major way so was not a competitive factor of any kind before 81), 80 Worlds and vote anyone else. Poetzsch's biggest rival was Fratianne who was weak at figures and a zzzz free skater (although she still never lost to the mediocre Poetzsch in a short or long program ever after 76). Her second biggest rival was Dagmur Lurz who was a semi decent figures specialist who Poetzsch never lost to in figures, and a ghastly Lurch from Addams Family free skater, yet still made most major podiums this period with that level of skating.

    The 86% of people who didnt vote for Poetzsch competition need to watch all of these videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCesUkLJKA0 Poetzsch's silver (and nearly gold) winning performance at the 79 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at7bdjBqo5w Poetzsch's winning performances (which placed a strong 2nd in just the LP phase) at the 80 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FZKzP5rwZs Poetzsch's short program at the 1980 Olympics which contributed to her Olympic Gold medal. She still placed a strong 3rd in this phase with this rubbish performance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUUdi2wHRwI Fratianne's zzzzz winning LP performance at the 78 Worlds with a big miss, only 1 successful triple, and a 3 year old program, and this was by far the strongest Worlds of this whole quad (Poetzsch won overall)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQuUMATstO4 Lurz's bronze medal performance at the 1980 Olympics (like I said Lurch on ice)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQu6GVMGqOQ Lurz's silver medal performance at the 1980 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7f6Hbj970g Lurz's 4th place performance at the 79 Worlds

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfXwK-5erYE Fratianne's winning performance at the 77 Worlds (which amazingly won the LP phase too)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Cefl4Fwnk Fratianne's winning performance at the 1980 U.S Nationals

    This was the cream of skating in that era though.
     
  23. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Poetzsch had great basics but her jumping was pretty poor. She barely got that salchow around at 79 worlds. Luckily the level of skating went up after the 79-80 season.
     
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course, but you see that people always vote for the one they know : Michelle Kwan ! :lol:
     
  25. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Pootosh is the best spelling ever, but why are there so many different spellings of Annette's family name? Over the years I have seen official English publications spell it various ways. I do not as you know speak German, so I interested to learn why this may be.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I guess that is an unofficial FSU rule :lol: but even Baiul has more votes than Poetzsch. Granted I dont think Baiul had great competition but Kerrigan, Chen, Sato, Bonaly, Chouinard is still way tougher competition than just Fratianne and Lurz.
     
  27. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    I have no idea why Michelle has the most votes here.
     
  28. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I admit that I voted for Baiul because I don't know much about "Pootosh" era, and partly because I think Baiul didn't deserve any of her title, but that's not the question, just a bad revenge from me ! Hahahaaaa
     
  29. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Me, neither. Furthermore, Michelle's biggest obstacle was often not the competition but the judges themselves. Even at Nationals, the judges seemed eager to crown Sasha the next figure skating queen--if only Sasha had managed to stay on her feet. Look at Michelle's marks at 2000 Worlds--7 triples including a 3-3 and she got two 5.6s and three 5.7s. Yes, she skated first, but wouldn't 5.8s have left enough room for Irina? Sarah Hughes got 5.8s for tech skating first at SLC, didn't she? And 5.6?? Then there was the judge that gave her a 5.1 for her 2004 short program. Who knew a time deduction was worth that much? And then there were Tara's 5.9s for presentation at Nagano--5.9? Really? The same as Michelle? There is even a case to be made for Michelle placing over Irina's overwrought LP at SLC. At least we can chalk that up to a fall. I halfway suspect, however, the result might have been the same, even if Michelle had not fallen.
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  30. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    It is funny Slutskaya has only 4 votes though. Since Michelle has so many which I agree with shouldnt Irina also have alot. After all they were from the exact same era so had the exact same competition and since so many of us think Michelle's was poor, Irina's must have been too. Irina would have been my 2nd vote if I were allowed two, since I think the 1996-2006 period was the most uninspiring overall period of womens skating ever. Then again Irina faced Michelle which already made her competition tougher than Michelle's who couldnt face herself, the only good skater (Kwan) of that lame era.