Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

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Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    51 vote(s)
    26.0%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.2%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.1%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.6%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.9%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.7%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.2%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    It is also funny to see many of the Kwan fans arguing her competition was super tough and the toughest ever by far in this thread, are the same ones who I remember in another thread a couple months ago saying the ISU elevated Slutskaya and invented her rivalry with Kwan, when Irina was not good enough to be one on the merits of her own skating (which I agree with by the way), all because they didnt want a 10 year Henie like run of dominance by Kwan and there was nobody else to challenge her. Now suddenly some of these same posters talking about her great and tough competition and field. Talk about a contradiction!
  2. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :huh: ISU invented rivalry :puppet:? Never heard that before, and think only a real rivalry existed dating back to circa 1993.
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2013
  3. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Remember how Kwan pretended to love Slutskaya and how they both told the press they were "like sisters"? Ira Slutskaya may have had an English-speaking persona that was slightly phonier than her native one, but I think those two were genuinely not rivals until 2001-2002. In 1999-2000 and 2000-2001 Slutskaya had to push herself technically and capitalize on the fact there were no other challengers (and the influence of the multiple Russian speaking federations). In 2001-2002, Slutskaya got a more interesting free program-- at least from an audience perspective--that combined her technical advantages with a little drama. I think the battle between them remained warm and friendly-- though highly neurotic--throughout the season because the two had spent so many years not being rivals. Their individual neuroses produced the irony that neither of them would take the Olympic Gold medal. Perhaps if it had been a more heated rivalry, where one or both really wanted nothing more than to deny the other of the Gold, it might have helped them competitively.
  4. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    How do you know she pretended? I think Kwan genuinely liked Slute very much. Remember at the time these skaters spent months touring together on COI. If Kwan and Lipinski could go to carnivals together on the COI tour, then I think she and Slute could have liked each other very much. Kwan is very easy to read and has trouble hiding her emotions.
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2013
  5. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Lipinski and Kwan do not really like each other.
  6. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Was Kwan's "I like you" comment just a PR move? Are you calling her a liar?
  7. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    And we know this how?
  8. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Okay, I wouldn't do that, and I was not referring to any comments made by Kwan. But skating is an entertainment business. These girls were very young-- multimillionaires at age 15. People say things in public they don't mean, especially when they are packaged and sold teenagers. Is this news? We don't really need to discuss this further, and I've gotten us off-topic.
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Really? I didn't think they were friends and I'm sure they were annoyed with each other's media attention and the rivalry wouldn't do anything to help that, but I didn't know it ever got personal.

    When was the last time they really had to deal with each other? Since they were in their teens during the height of the rivalry, I wonder if they'd get along better now as adults.
  10. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    They spoke at The RISE premiere..Tara posted a pic of the two of them together.
  11. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't really see it as a contradiction because just because some fans argue that Slutskaya's rise was sort of artificial doesn't mean that the overall level of competition wasn't high. Maybe some of the more ardent Kwan fans are only arguing that Kwan was that much better to them during that period, but she still had to perform at a high level to actually win anything.

    Anyway, we obviously disagree about who had the weakest competition at the top and we all have our own rationalizations.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am still amazed at the low number of votes for Poetzsch. I challenge anyone to watch a series of tapes from the 77 Worlds, 79 Worlds, 80 Olympics (and keep in mind watching Biellmann's wonderful free skating she sucked at figures in a major way so was not a competitive factor of any kind before 81), 80 Worlds and vote anyone else. Poetzsch's biggest rival was Fratianne who was weak at figures and a zzzz free skater (although she still never lost to the mediocre Poetzsch in a short or long program ever after 76). Her second biggest rival was Dagmur Lurz who was a semi decent figures specialist who Poetzsch never lost to in figures, and a ghastly Lurch from Addams Family free skater, yet still made most major podiums this period with that level of skating.

    The 86% of people who didnt vote for Poetzsch competition need to watch all of these videos:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCesUkLJKA0 Poetzsch's silver (and nearly gold) winning performance at the 79 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at7bdjBqo5w Poetzsch's winning performances (which placed a strong 2nd in just the LP phase) at the 80 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FZKzP5rwZs Poetzsch's short program at the 1980 Olympics which contributed to her Olympic Gold medal. She still placed a strong 3rd in this phase with this rubbish performance.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUUdi2wHRwI Fratianne's zzzzz winning LP performance at the 78 Worlds with a big miss, only 1 successful triple, and a 3 year old program, and this was by far the strongest Worlds of this whole quad (Poetzsch won overall)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQuUMATstO4 Lurz's bronze medal performance at the 1980 Olympics (like I said Lurch on ice)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQu6GVMGqOQ Lurz's silver medal performance at the 1980 Worlds
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7f6Hbj970g Lurz's 4th place performance at the 79 Worlds

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VfXwK-5erYE Fratianne's winning performance at the 77 Worlds (which amazingly won the LP phase too)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3Cefl4Fwnk Fratianne's winning performance at the 1980 U.S Nationals

    This was the cream of skating in that era though.
  13. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Poetzsch had great basics but her jumping was pretty poor. She barely got that salchow around at 79 worlds. Luckily the level of skating went up after the 79-80 season.
  14. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Of course, but you see that people always vote for the one they know : Michelle Kwan ! :lol:
  15. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Pootosh is the best spelling ever, but why are there so many different spellings of Annette's family name? Over the years I have seen official English publications spell it various ways. I do not as you know speak German, so I interested to learn why this may be.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I guess that is an unofficial FSU rule :lol: but even Baiul has more votes than Poetzsch. Granted I dont think Baiul had great competition but Kerrigan, Chen, Sato, Bonaly, Chouinard is still way tougher competition than just Fratianne and Lurz.
  17. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    I have no idea why Michelle has the most votes here.
  18. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I admit that I voted for Baiul because I don't know much about "Pootosh" era, and partly because I think Baiul didn't deserve any of her title, but that's not the question, just a bad revenge from me ! Hahahaaaa
  19. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Me, neither. Furthermore, Michelle's biggest obstacle was often not the competition but the judges themselves. Even at Nationals, the judges seemed eager to crown Sasha the next figure skating queen--if only Sasha had managed to stay on her feet. Look at Michelle's marks at 2000 Worlds--7 triples including a 3-3 and she got two 5.6s and three 5.7s. Yes, she skated first, but wouldn't 5.8s have left enough room for Irina? Sarah Hughes got 5.8s for tech skating first at SLC, didn't she? And 5.6?? Then there was the judge that gave her a 5.1 for her 2004 short program. Who knew a time deduction was worth that much? And then there were Tara's 5.9s for presentation at Nagano--5.9? Really? The same as Michelle? There is even a case to be made for Michelle placing over Irina's overwrought LP at SLC. At least we can chalk that up to a fall. I halfway suspect, however, the result might have been the same, even if Michelle had not fallen.
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  20. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    It is funny Slutskaya has only 4 votes though. Since Michelle has so many which I agree with shouldnt Irina also have alot. After all they were from the exact same era so had the exact same competition and since so many of us think Michelle's was poor, Irina's must have been too. Irina would have been my 2nd vote if I were allowed two, since I think the 1996-2006 period was the most uninspiring overall period of womens skating ever. Then again Irina faced Michelle which already made her competition tougher than Michelle's who couldnt face herself, the only good skater (Kwan) of that lame era.
  21. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    It's called presentation, not artistry, and I thought on that night, Tara's presentation was better than Michelle's. :shuffle: I agree that her marks at 2000 Worlds were ridiculous, though. Her presentation was on fire that night. I don't think her presentation has ever been better. Plus she was technically better than anyone else too. I think the judges were deluded into thinking Maria and Irina might go clean.
  22. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Why wouldnt they think that could happen. Irina had skated clean most of that season, and Maria had been on fire all week in practice and had her best ever short program. It was a surprise both didnt skate better than they did.

    As for Tara's presentation marks in Nagano, the judges are supposed to use the marks as a means to put the skater who they think deserves 1st there. Those judges who gave Michelle 5.8, 5.9 and felt Tara deserved to win overall based on superior technical and speed had to give Tara 5.9, 5.9 given the 2nd mark tiebreaker rule. I doubt any judge actually thought Tara was better in artistic. Every single judge had them tied or lower on the 2nd mark. They just did as they were supposed to, use it to put the skater who they thought deserved to win that night 1st.
  23. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Irina skated clean MOST of the season? I really don't recall her skating clean nearly every competition that year. And Maria typically left her best on the practice ice.

    Maybe, maybe not. But presentation is the name of the second mark, not artistry. And I'd have given Tara a 5.9 for presentation.

    TL - 5.9., 59
    MK - 5.7,5.8
  24. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Lyra Angelica was such a complete and well-constructed program. Her presentation was fantastic. ;)
  25. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    I have a hard time believing that Irina did not go to every competition intending to be the winner and the star of the competition for every competition she entered, including every competition where Kwan was the favorite as far back as Jr competition. However, Irina did have the psychological barrier of being a Russian lady, which was the figure skating equivalent of being a barren women. Given her OGM potential, the silver at the 2002 Olympics was a disappointment although still a milestone for Russian Ladies Figure Skating, right up there with Ivanova's Olympic Bronze and Butryskaya's World Championship.

    I really think Michelle was motivated by "just doing her best" and showing she could be "perfect"; it was not about what others did. This is why she always performed cautiously when she actually cared about winning.

    Of course, they were both were overtaken by Tara, who Irina famously confronted in an elevator at 1996 Worlds by saying, "You are not supposed to be here," to which Tara replied, "YES, I AM!!!". Tara, as a competitor, really wanted to be better than everybody else, and was disgusted with anything less. I really think this disgust, which is often described as "hating to loose", that brought her over the top because it was a more powerful motivator than the affirmative "I want to be the winner" or the goal of a personal best.
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2013
  26. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have a source for this quote? I'm far from a Slutskaya fan but I've never seen a quote.
  27. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I stand proudly and stubbornly by my Nagano marks. ;)
  28. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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  29. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    Agreed. Poetzch was quite weak, and probably as strong of a skater as Hughes for her era.

    I find this 'weakest competition' question misleading. Often, a skater has a strong competition for two almost opposing reasons. Is it because the skater in question wasn't that strong, so the rest of the competition was consistently scored at a close level? Or is it because the rest of the field was actually strong?

    People may look at Baiul and Poetzch's eras, see the closely-debated results, and conclude these were competitive eras for them. However, this speaks more about Baiul and Poetzch's actual level then how strong their competition was. Kerrigan, Bonaly, Fratianne, Lurz, etc. weren't particularly strong competition and didn't really push the sport forward. They are all strong, respectable skaters in the grand scheme, but competition wise, not so much.

    And how do we define strong competition? Maybe by how much a quad's top skaters push skating to progress, through a combination of technical or artistic feats and/or strong consistency?
  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Despite how cautiously Lurz skated ALL THE TIME, it is worth noting that she did have a consistent 3Loop, which is probably what got her the World Silver.
  31. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    :)
  32. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Looking at her performances that others have posted it looks like all she had were jumps. Really slow spins, poor basic skating, no elegance or style, and small jumps with not good quality or speed.
  33. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Oh no, you made me watch part of that program again after me swearing I'd never sit through it again. :rofl: Thanks for the source. How rude. :eek: It's also :rofl: since Slutskaya looked like an 8 year old that year. I recall her dismissing her loss to Asada in a rather unsportsmanlike reply too.
  34. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Slutskaya was a gross and vile skater and one of the most overrated in history. I think many voting down Kwan's competition it is because they are not impressed with Slutskaya and she was Kwan's main competitor most of her career. So it isnt really a diss on Kwan herself, but on Slutskaya her main "competition".
  35. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    Funny, because I consider that the "golden age" of ladies skating: Michelle, Tara, Irina, Maria, Sasha, Sarah, Cupcake, Baby Ballerinas--and Dick and Peggy. It doesn't get much better than that.
  36. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    You lost me at Sarah and Cupcake. Sokolova? Really? I think one's "golden age" can be traced more back to a person's age at the time of the skating than the actual skating.
  37. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I do think Cupcake's 2006 LP was one of the more inspired ones that season with one of the best choreographed FW sequences. That said, she wouldn't be in the top of that era for me even though I did think her 3/3s and bubbly personality was great to see in 2003.
  38. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    Its a little odd because you have ceetain people saying 1995-2006 was the weakest era in ladies skating, but you also have alot of people saying 1974-1981 was the worst. I think the 89-94 era was the strongest, it started with the decline of the Europeans (and the end of East Germany) and ended with the resurgence of some former USSR skaters (Baiul)
  39. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    I'm including personalities, rivalries and drama along with skating abilities. If based purely on skating, it's still the golden age to me if only because of Michelle and all of those who tried to knock her off her throne.
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Cupcake was adoreable and sweet, and a strong jumper, but I wouldnt really call her a "personality".