Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

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Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    52 vote(s)
    26.4%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.5%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.8%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.6%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    With her 3/3 combos and like all triples she wasn't elevated to be an opponent she demanded those wins! Rarely has someone come along ever with such hard jumps. Midori could've done It earlier but figures held her back but there were no figures to hold Lipinski back.
     
  2. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    It is funny depending how you twist it around one could say any of these skaters on the list had great or weak competition. It makes it purely subjective and basically around to which era had more skaters you liked or not I guess.
     
  3. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I could see a case for Michelle winning 96 or 97 Champion Series Final over Tara but she didn't. Gusmeroli deserved to beat Tara in the short at worlds but didn't. Irina could have beaten Tara in the long at 97 worlds without much controversy but didn't. I think the judges liked Tara a lot. So no, I can't agree with the winning by default theory.
     
  4. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    :confused: Michelle didn't even have the chance to compete against Tara at the '98 season Champion Series Final because of the stress fracture on her toe. She made it to the final, but withdrew before the event began due to injury. Tanja Szewczenko finished 2nd to Tara. Michelle won the '96 season Champion Series Final; Tara was not at that final. The one CSF the two did meet in the '97 season, Tara finished 1st and Michelle was 2nd. I'm not sure how you are coming up with your theory that Tara defeated Michelle at the CSF twice. :confused:
     
  5. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry for the confusion. I meant that I couldnt remember if the CSF Tara won was held in 96 or 97. I didnt mean both years.
     
  6. butyrskafanatic

    butyrskafanatic Member

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    I hope you dont mind me cutting into this debate.

    Michelle wasnt even at the 97-98 season Champions Series Final. That Kwan could have won the 96-97 Champions Series Final over a perfect Tara without controversy (which I agree on) with a opened up in mid air/fall no 2nd jump combo disaester in the short; and a fall on a triple loop, a hands down triple flip, and two footed double axel in the long, only goes to show the earlier point Tara was not that good yet (not that well liked by the skating establishment). That nobody besides Tara was even close to beating Michelle at that event with those performances, also goes along with the previous posters point of the depthless womens field at the time, and for a few years more to come.

    Gusmeroli was a total nobody before the 97 Worlds. I hadnt even heard of her before that event. That even with her excellent performance she took 4 judges off pre Worlds title favorite Tara was remarkable and telling enough in itself, along with that it was possible for her to finish that highly regardless how well she skated.

    Had nearly all the top 10 from the 96 Worlds not fallen apart Tara would not have risen to the top at all that season, or even been close. Especialy the top 3 who had they held their form Tara wouldnt have touched yet. Slutskaya was already slumping and struggling that fall and still beat Tara 3 times, before getting even worse in the winter, and Tara gaining rep value with her win over Kwan at Nationals. In the SP at Nationals, Tonia Kwiatkowski ranked only 8th in the World lost a 5-4 split in the short program vs a clean Tara, which is a pretty good indication where Tara would have been slated if the entire top 10 of 96 werent all gone or struggling that year. Maria should have been given more of a look that year but he judges hated her always, and she didnt land a clean triple lutz in the long all year, always a hand down or some problem with the key jump.

    She won the short program at Worlds with like 6 marks of 5.5, which is almost unheard of. It was the huge vacuum at the top as Ironlady said that made her unexpectedly fast rise to the top possible.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  7. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't mind you butting in but it would be nice if you read the posts that preceded yours. And Tara wasn't perfect at that CSF.

    Gusmeroli was remarkable at 97 world short, that she didn't beat Tara who was good is more telling. The judges liked Tara and that they kept her in first by not letting Slute beat her in the long cemented it. They had chances to keep her out of first in the short and then overall but didn't. They liked her.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  8. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I think three judges did end up having Slutskaya placing higher than Tara, after six judges placed Kwan over Tara. I don't know how true this is, but the story was that most of the judges couldn't put Slute in-between Michelle and Tara because they scored them so closely. Therefore they had to either place Slute first or third.

    Either way, the judges did like Tara as evidenced with her CSF win and placing first in the SP and high in the LP. Just because at the time they seemed to prefer Michelle or another skater doesn't mean that they didn't like Tara. We all saw how much they liked her in Nagano.
     
  9. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    When you say "the story was," what do you mean by that? I was online back then and subscribed to all the US skating magazines and never heard any "story." How on earth would anyone know what the collective judges wanted to do? By the way, all three ladies received three first place votes. Kwan won the long program simply by virtue of receiving the most second place votes, so it's not like Michelle slam dunked Tara (or Irina) for that matter in the long, another point that judges liked Tara quite fine. I wouldn't have blinked had Michelle beat Tara on every judge's care, as I thought Michelle was the best that night, but she didn't.

    Yeah, I forgot to mention Nagano. Good point. Duh on my part. :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2013
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I remembering hearing that story on FSW, FSU, Skate Forum, and in Christine Brennan's book, Edge of Glory. All three are as "reliable" as you can imagine anonymous heresy, musings, and Christine Brennan can be. I should have put "a story" instead of "the story" but it was out there.
     
  11. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    She did- but she would have never been able to maintain that level of skating even if her career lasted two or three more years. So while I do find it admirable, she was a 14 year old who weighed like 80 pounds who retired before she even hit puberty.
     
  12. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    And now Tara is a 31 year old who weighs 82 pounds. :lol:

    I agree with you though. She probably wouldn't have sustained her harder jump combinations had she stayed eligible, but I couldn't resist. She's still so tiny. :lol:
     
  13. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    LOL well that is true. Actually as I wrote that i thought to myself "did she hit puberty yet?" haha.
     
  14. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I don't say she would have had any longevity just that she took all she could while she could!!

    If she jumped like all the people failing around her she wouldn't have gotten anywhere! She was so superior in jumps to the people around her. The judges couldn't hold her back! She was just too superior!
     
  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter if they still won?
     
  16. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Of those girls from best competition to worst:

    1, Kim
    2. Ito
    3. Yamaguchi
    4. Shuba (I assume Schubert means Schuba)
    5. Sumners
    6. Baiul
    7. Hamill
    8. Poetzsch
    9. Kwan
    10. Slutskaya
    11. Fleming

    The 10 people who voted for Kim are total morons. Kim had by far the hardest competition of any skater ever.
     
  17. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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    Poetzsch had harder competition then Kwan did? Are you kidding?
     
  18. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Poetzsch had to compete against Fratianne and Biellmann who I consider a better skaters than Slutskaya, who is by far the best person Kwan ever faced. So yeah if forced to choose between them I think Poetzsch had more competition. This isnt about who was the best skater but who had harder competition. Of course Kwan is a better skater than Poetzsch but that isnt the thread topic. Anyway switch them on my list if you want, but either way both are near the bottom.
     
  19. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    Michelle won the 96 CSF.

    Tara actually the CSF twice in 97, early in 97 she defeated MK and later in 97 with no MK.
     
  20. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    I disagree. Kim arguably faced better SKATERS, but not better competitors. Asada and Kostner are incredibly talented and great if they are on, but they hardly ever skate well in both portions of the competition. Let's examine the seasons Kim participated in:

    2007 - Ando won overall because both Kim and Asada had major mistakes in one portion of the competition.
    2008 - Asada won, but not with the best FP. Kim fell in the SP.
    2009 - Kim skates lights out in the SP, but had a fall in the LP. The rest of the competition was alright but not amazing.
    2010 - Yes, the Olympics was a tough competition. I'll agree to that. But not Worlds - Worlds that year was fairly open but Kim did not materialize.
    2011 - Kim lost to a subpar Ando and in a generally very weak field.

    I also disagree about Yamaguchi. While she faced Ito and Harding who were amazing skaters (one of them iconic and legendary), neither were the best competitors. There's a reason she won the Olympics with two major mistakes.

    And Baiul..better competition than Kwan? Baiul's main competition was Bonaly and Kerrigan, neither whom I consider to be particularly top skaters. I suppose if you mean Baiul faced competition because she had very close results with her competitors, that speaks more about Baiul's lower skating level compared to the likes of Yamaguchi and Kwan, then about the high level of her competitors.

    Imagine if Kwan made one fall in the FP during one of the years she won Worlds. She would easily have lost 1996, 2000, and 2001. 2003 would have been close with Sokolova, but I think the judges would've still given the nod though it could maybe go either way.
     
  21. mustafinabars

    mustafinabars Member

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    Lets analazye the Worlds Kwan won then:

    1996- did beat a very good Chen, but other than that a sucky event. Slutskaya easily won bronze by a huge margin over others with a gigantic sliding fall on her side, another big stumble, and novice level presentation.
    1998- typical post Olympic Worlds, weak, but a litle worse than usual. Rechnio was robbed of a medal overall with 3 triples.
    2000- nothing special, Kwan was great but only had to beat mediocre skates by both Slutskaya and Butyrskaya.
    2001- similar to 2000.
    2003- Sokolova was the silver medalist, nuff said.


    For the ones you mentioned:

    2007- Overall a spectacular event. A WR short program by Kim, a WR long program by Asada, and still neither won. Ando delivered two incredibly technically demanding and perfect programs with much improved presentation to win the overall title. That Mao's mistake ikn teh short program was enough to cost her the ititle with her at the time unwordly LP skate was telling to the standard.

    2008- Disapointing event, agreed. Mao though did a triple-triple in both programs, gorgeous artistry, and her only real mistake was a sliding fall on the first triple axel. She still barely won.

    2009- Excellent event again.

    2010- Best ever Olympic event in any discipline, no question.

    2010- OK this was the weakest event of the ones you listed but Mao still landed 3 triple axels (one with a questionable downgrade), and still didnt win either program, so the standard was still higher than most of Kwan's competitors.

    2013- Very high standard. Silver and bronze medalists made a few mistakes but were overall still of an extremely high standard of technical difficulty, complex choreography, high level non jump elements, and beautiful artistry. Many great performances from skaters 4-10, and alot of great up and comers.


    Who were the great competitors as you put it Kwan faced. Only Tara who was around only a year and a bit, and maybe Hughes who was also a blip. Slutskaya was no great competitor, her only totally clean World competition was 2002 with a safe watered down effort. She just looks consistent relative to the collection of headcases behind them. Cohen was an awful competitor, both a poorer competitor and overall skater than Asada, Kostner, and the rest. So was Butyrskaya, and Chen was a mediocre competitor by the time she was facing Kwan, crashing and burning all the events in her World title defense season except Worlds.



    As for Baiul, the overall competitive field was pretty good, even if there wasnt one huge legend she had to beat. Look at the 1993 Worlds and all the clean skates in the top 10. Amazing. Chen skated much better to barely win bronze there as she did to barely win bronze at the Olympics Kwan won silver in Nagano. Bonaly is just a jumper, just like Slutskaya Kwan's big and most of her career only competitor was. No difference, except Bonaly consistently did 6 and 7 triples and triple-triples more often than Slutskaya did.

    As for Kerrigan lets compare her to who Kwan's biggest U.S competitor was through her career. Weaker than Tara probably but she didnt last long, and IMO a superior skater easily to Hughes, and her Olympic performances far trump what Cohen ever produced in a big event, especialy against Kwan.

    Anyway the poll results speak for themselves. Many more people agree with me than agree with you, except maybe to some extent on Baiul, who I dont feel strongly about either way on this topic.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2013
  22. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

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  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Well, over 72% of posters who participated in this poll (which has a low turn-out compared to the number posters or even active posters, but not sure if it's low compared to other polls in the Trash Can) did not vote for Kwan, so we don't know what the numbers would be if it was just Baiul and Kwan head-to-head.
     
  24. all_empty

    all_empty Well-Known Member

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    This actually was one of the more enjoyable events I attended.

    If I recall, Sokolova actually took 2-3 ordinals from Kwan after the short program. I remember she was nailing 3+3 combos in practice left and right.

    Suguri and Volchkova were skating quite well too, and if Cohen didn't SashaSplatTM in the short program, it could've been an exciting skate for the gold.

    It also served as Carolina Kostner's coming out party, and some skaters who would later become big names (Shizuka Arakawa, Joannie Rochette) were undermarked in my opinion.

    It was definitely Kwan's to lose, but she was skating with so much confidence that second half of the season (and at home) and I knew she wouldn't.

    I can see other's arguments why she had the weakest competition, but considering her longevity and how many good/great skaters she competed against, I have to give credit where credit is due.
     
  25. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    Kim didnt fell, she popped 3sal
    And at 2008 world, asada fell in FS
     
  26. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

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    :lol:@ the results. Yes, Michelle Kwan had such lame competition that she breezed her way to five world titles, all in a row without ever taking a step down.
     
  27. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    :lol: ... with World titles 3 and 4 including a triple/triple ...
     
  28. query5

    query5 New Member

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    i would say oksana, due to fact she didn't stay in but two years

    in fact the 1993 worlds was kinda of unexpected of who medaled.
    nancy was suppose to medal/win due to she medal at olympics in 1992 and had 2 previous medals.
    lu chen medal in 1992 worlds.

    so when it was oksana, surya, lu chen who did what she was suppose to and medal .

    i just think oksana due to lenght of time, no one challenged her/when they should of.
    to
     
  29. query5

    query5 New Member

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    if you want to get picky
    they all had weak competitions
    it depends on who you judge the criteria.

    michelle 7 jumps/triple triples with tara/ sarah, irina, made more of jumps than artistry. had to add in sasha lu chen, midori in 1996. can add in shizuka, maria, start of the younger set with julia soldatova, miki, sasha, sarah, . no leeway onle fall messed you up. short program was placement had to be in top 3 to win. couldn't mess up or didn't win like now
    had to do triples in both long and short program, in fact combinations mainly was mandatory triple /double combination.

    trixie shubert the figure expert had julie lynn holmes, janet lynn, karen magnussen. they had a leeway with the figures to hold them up if bomb free skate
    peggy had the figures and only gabrielle seyfert --no triples only doubles. only doubles/singles

    kristi only 5 , dorothy no triples, all she had was midori, possible tonya, nancym, possible did 3-4 triples rarely did they do five triples in program. why tonya, midori was big tried, credited triple axel but maybe not all other triples like now. worked on triple axel but left out other triples . only did triples in long not in short/just started . triple in short was either or situation. just
    placement had to be in top 3 to win
    annette just started doing triples but had figures all she had was linda possible dagmar, with figures to hold up. didn't have to do triples in short/combination if did was double double for some who got up there
    dorothy no triples, just started a short program, figures still counted . all she had was diane de leeuw, christine errath

    katarina might had have a few like rosalyn, deb, kira, elizabeth manley, elaine zayak. caryn kadavy, but figure kinda of help them by holding them up. only did one -2 triples in program, tiffany chin

    midori did triples axel, started under figures was held down until taken away . figure were her short comings. did triple axel /triple loop, didnt have to do triple in short only long
    was either or situation.


    for michelle the toughest is a tie between michelle/irina, katarina due to stayed in so long and had to keep ahead of their rivals plus the up and comers for over 8-10 years.

    yuna is another strong one with--mao, mike, joannie, carolina kostner - only downside is the ijs system where hold up due to pcs scores and not taking enough off for mistakes which makes
    it seem like the skaters are skating/winning messy and badly. winning by falling and being prop up due to who they are not how skated.

    rosalyn basically who katarina had like elaine, tiffany katarina, kira,
     
  30. love_skate2011

    love_skate2011 Well-Known Member

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    cant argue Michelle wins in every poll, :rofl: