Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    52 vote(s)
    26.4%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.5%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.8%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.6%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Of the people who were around since I started to follow skating on this poll- Ito, Yamaguchi, Kwan, Slutskaya, Kim, Asada, Witt; the weakest competition was Kwan and Slutskaya (basically tied since they were in the exact same era) with Kwan having the easier competition if one has to pick as she only had to face Irina while Irina had to face Michelle. So for that reason I chose Kwan. Alot are saying Poetzsch and Fleming had weak competition but I know nothing about those eras so I cant really judge them. I had never heard of Poetzsch until glancing the list of winners one day, so she must not be a memorable figure in the sport but stil knowing nothing about her era I cant pick her.
     
  2. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I had thought of that as well, and pretty much why sums up why I voted for Kwan. What a nightmare that would be, a sloppy and fugly skater like Slutskaya winning that many World titles, but without Kwan it would have happened since Irina was 2nd to Michelle so many times. Pretty much means for the most part the others must have kind of sucked. That isnt to take anything away from Kwan, the one and only brilliant skater of that era.
     
  3. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    As for Poetzsch, if some posters haven't watched the 1980 vids and seen at least her and Linda's boring skating, I sympathize with your plight. It was a little hard to get through Fratianne and harder to get through Poetzsch. Lurz I just watched for the first time just now, and I see I wasn't missing anything. Biellman, Watanabe, and Lisa Marie Allen were more entertaining skaters.
     
  4. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I was too young to see any of Poetzsch and Fratianne and havent bothered to look them up on tapes. From what people have told me it isnt worth the time or effort, even to see if they are a worthy choice in a poll like this or not. A friend of mind told me Fratianne was a poor womens Kerrigan, but she was still the better in free skating anyway between her and Poetzsch. I also have heard Linda did the most boring and tedious Carmen ever and used it 3 years in a row, ever wearing the same dress for both short and long programs several years in a row, and used her previous long program 3 years in a row before that.
     
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  5. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    If I have something to say, I'll say it. If you think you can say it better, please go ahead. All these lecturers including you and l'etoile, remained silent when Yu-Na and her fans were under unfair attack from the haters, even during the Orser-Kim split. Stop giving me your silly lecture until you have better things to say. It's not been like I was jumping into threads without leaving sufficient time for other well-spoken Yu-Na fans to react first. You get it?
     
  6. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I tried to look info on Trixi Schubert online but couldnt find a skater under that name. Could anyone inform me who this Trixi Schubert is. Or did the person mean the famous figures specialist Trixi Schuba and was making fun of her in some way?
     
  7. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Linda Fratianne wearing the same dress for the SP and FS is kind of strange. It reminds me of Danny Kwan making Michelle dress like a spelling bee contestant. None of the other ladies in 1980 were doing that, so I am sure a few judges thought she was odd. It seems like the men were getting very glammed up in different SP and FS costumes circa 1980.
     
  8. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    This is my last reply to you because you're a lunatic and a war-freak. Every time there's a post that is different from your view all of a sudden he/she is a bot. There's no conspiracy twat. I know there are a lot of haters online and in this forum but the more you engaged to them and start generalizing then you're no different from them. So, go ahead try to make a fool out of yourself.
     
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  9. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think I saw a few seconds of Poetzsch on YouTube and then switched it off because I was bored lol.
     
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  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I would like a video of Fratianne skating (or Poetzsch for that matter) when I am the dentist, and the freezing or laughing gas is not working as hoped. About otherwise not really. I would say Lurz except I think of that butler at the Addams family (forget his name) everytime I see him skate with those slow lurching movements and that hunchy posture. Actually isnt his name Lurch, so I guess her name Lurz is appropriate.
     
  11. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    What does that even mean?

    Linda used Carmen for her SP in 76 and for her LPs for 79 and 80. She used Schez for her LP in 76 and 78. She re-wore her SP dress in Lake Placid for her LP at the games, because she was superstitious, and she had skated very well in that same dress for the SP.

    Linda skated to whatever Frank told her to skate to, so any complaints about her music choices and programs have to be directed at Frank. The only exception where Linda went out on her own was when Frank wanted her to skate to Sleeping Beauty for the 80 Olympic LP, but Linda was adamant about sticking with Carmen; Since she re-won her World title in 79 with Carmen, Linda's superstitious nature influenced her to stay with Carmen for the 80 season as well.

    There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of Carmens in skating history. I'm pretty sure Linda's wasn't the "most boring and tedious Carmen ever".

    ----

    Here are two of Linda's best performances as an amateur. They showed the tremendous potential that she had as a teenager:

    76 Nationals LP

    77 Worlds SP
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Linda showed amazing potential as a young skater. Little did anyone know the 76 Nationals was as good as she was ever going to be (apart from improvement in figures).
     
  13. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Great website!! Shows that in figures schubas opponents weren't even average!! So few benefitted more than her because figures meant so much!

    Impossible!! In 2006 plushenko doubled a jump So in all reality it's possible that under the 2010 scoring system lysacek would've beaten plushenkos 2006 skate too. Under 2006 rules likely that plushenko wouldve won in 2010 too.
     
  14. centerstage01

    centerstage01 Well-Known Member

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    I'm almost half convinced that if people see Kwan's name in a poll, they'll vote for her, regardless of what the topic might be. Which is the only explanation as to why she's winning this poll.
     
  15. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    Oh poor Michelle Kwan is being attacked by those Yuna-bots again! It must be them--what else could explain any poll result that I disagree with? When a poll doesn't reflect what I know is reality, it must be the Yuna-bots at work...

    So who's delusional again? :rolleyes:
     
  16. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Baiul had pretty weak competition. Surya was her main rival and she was never being handed a gold medal unless the others failed to show up. Kerrigan was never a rival which is the main reason the judges probably didn't give her the gold in Lillehammer, they didn't like the idea of a fluke win. Ito wasn't there, Yamaguchi wasn't there. Lu Chen was just up and coming and was from China so she had absolutely no political backing. Baiul managed to win the Olympics with no triple in combination and a ton of posing. I love her, don't get me wrong, but she was so lucky to win that competition. She also high tailed it out of there just in the nick of time.

    There is no way Kwan had the weakest competition. People are voting for her as a joke, to protect their favorite, etc. You don't stay on top of a sport for 10 years and never come across stiff competition. Kwan faced enough competition for 3 lifetimes in this sport. It's cute though, Kwan wins all the polls around here. :)

    Kwan had to compete against Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Hughes, Lipinski, Bobek, Suguri, and countless others. Kwan won 5 world gold medals in this time but her competitors won 4 others plus 2 olympic titles. I guess Kwan should take it as a compliment, she was so damn good no one was even competition for her.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  17. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I also voted Baiul. She won that rare Winter Olympic on a 2 year cycle when Kristi/Midori had retired, and Michelle/Tara had yet be reckoned with. It was a 2 year lull between two very fierce periods. Her main competition Kerrigan/Bonaly wasn't nearly as strong. Even Chen, while underated, still placed under all of Midori, Kristi, Michelle and Tara at the biggest competitions (once Michelle and Tara came of age, of course).
     
  18. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree Baiuls competition was somehwhat weak in 93-94, and so was her technical difficulty. Interestingly though she lost both times at Euros, but probably still shouldn't have won 93 worlds over Bonaly and Chen. It seems once Kerrigan bombed the long, the judges propped up Baiul (who had the ballerina qualities) to be the next champion. Sato and Chouinard could've been formidable competitors but usually performed poorly at big competitions. So there was great skaters during this period, but they either habitually underperformed or weren't yet peaked (Chen). Had she stayed on past 94, I have no doubt she would be crushed by Kwan, Chen, Bobek, Slutskaya, Markova and even a rejuvenated Chouinard and Butyrskaya.
     
  19. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Why do none of Frank Carroll's lady skaters have attractive spin positions? Technically they are good enough spinners, but Fratianne and Kwan both had blah looking, boring spins.
     
  20. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Karen Kwan had wonderful spins. Michelle Kwan may not have had the best flexibility or speed, but she had great classic positions (other than the layback) and they were usually well-centered and looked clean with a variety of positions (even if they were not the most versatile). I'm not sure about Linda, but I think spinning simply wasn't Michelle Kwan's forte. She did work with Evelyn Kramer in the 1999-2000 season to improve on them, and she did, but they still weren't baby ballerina or Slutskaya level (although I think Michelle Kwan had one of the best sit spins-backwards and forwards). Her spinning in 2002 and probably 2004-2005 seasons were probably her best without Frank, but even then they weren't the best of the competition with the likes of Cohen, Slutskaya, and Arakawa (although Arakawa's spins tended to be slow and without the donut, her camels would've lacked stretch).
     
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Fratianne was actually a very good spinner for the time. One of the few areas of her skating I can actually appreciate. Her signature spin was the cannonball, I think she invented that spin but could be wrong on that.

    I will also say her short program in Lake Placid was outstanding. By far the most exciting skate I saw from her since the 76 Nationals 4 years earlier. Her long by contrast was excellent and clean but her usual blah and uninspiring effort all the same, and I fully understand it not getting the points to win the long program over Biellmann or catch Poetzsch overall from behind. Here is her excellent short program though:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNKj9H77mJA
     
  22. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    That SP does showcase some strong, centered spinning by Linda. I went back to her Carmen at 1980 Worlds too and I can appreciate the cannonball in the first combo spin. I am spoiled today, and I can see the 1980 crowd went wild for it. She actually skated Carmen better at the 1980 Worlds than at the Olympics. The final scratch after the arabians was faster. Did she ever change that dress though?
     
  23. smarts1

    smarts1 Well-Known Member

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    But does that necessarily make them weak competition? I think you guys are being a little strict here. Some of these skaters are very much on par with Mao and Carolina. And besides that Carolina was a mess of a skater before 2010-2011 and was no challenge to Yuna.
     
  24. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    I think it's funny how people worry skating is going to get kicked out of the Olympics because of today's judging when Dagmar Lurz (aka Dagmar Lurch) was winning medals and the sport survived.
     
  25. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm.... I would say Janet Lynn, Carolina Kostner, Akiko Suzuki, and possibly John Curry.

    I think it would be very difficult for ice dancers to do a program to it, but a pair might be able to pull it off.
     
  26. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    My vote was Michelle Kwan. The thread title is average level of competition so naming a bunch of names that stretch out over a long career, some who lasted a year or less at the top is not valid. It is also hilarious to see Kwan fans naming people like Butyrskaya, Suguri, and Hughes to trump up her competition. Butyrskaya and Suguri were NO competition for Kwan, and wouldnt be competition for any of the people on this poll if transported to a new era either. They are third rate skaters at best. Naming them is the equivalent of a Yamaguchi and Ito fan calling Karen Preston and Marina Kiellmann competition for them, or Kim fans naming Nagasu, Lepisto, and Rochette as competition for her. As for Hughes she is regarded by most as the worst Olympic Champion ever who won because 6 or 7 people messed up so I wouldnt glorify her either. The very fact skaters the caliber of Butyrskaya and Hughes could win a World and Olympic title in that era already speaks volumes. They are the kind of skaters if you didnt know their achievements you would look at on video and laugh at, Maria with her huge whip around landings and clunky style and falling 3 times per program usually, and Hughes with her giant Zhang like mule kicks on all her toe jumps, gigantic flutz, and pumping shoulders to bad choreography. Someone like Chen only challenged her at one event ever is also funny, and basically most people that 4 or 5 Kwans chant in unision in this thread dont make any sense, so little wonder they are falling on deaf ears.

    Based on average level competition Kwan usually didnt have much. From 1996 to 2003 which is probably her prime when did she face a decent field. 1996, 2002, and maybe 2001 would be the only times ever. 1997 and 1998 it was Tara, a skater with tiny jumps and poor style who Kwan had no excuse to have trouble beating most times anyway, and the 7 dwarfes. 1999 and 2000 there was literally nobody. 2003 there was pretty much nobody as well.

    My second choice would have been Peggy Fleming. I cant believe she doesnt have more votes. I saw her Gold medal performance in Grenoble on youtube once and boy did it suck, even for 60s standards. Yet she won by a landslide. The rest must have been awful for her to win so easily even with performances like that. She might be a better choice than Kwan in fact, since even Kwan couldnt win easily with a performance like that translated to 90s standards probably, but since Fleming has no hope of winning this poll I might as well pick someone who could so Kwan.
     
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  27. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

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    That is a great quote. Pretty much anyone who has a question about why some think the Kwan era was weak just needs to read that, and the discussion is over.
     
  28. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Mirai and Nikodinov were both Frank's ladies. You think they too had "blah looking, boring spins" ?

    Fratianne did the basic camel and sit position that everyone did under 6.0, but she did add the cannonball position to her sit. I'm not sure if she and Frank invented that move but that was known as a signature spin of hers. If you look at the utube link of Linda's SP from 77, she had good speed, position, and centering on her camel-change-camel and on her flying sit.
     
  29. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Mirai started missing spins when Frank coached her! :lol: But I am not going to argue with you because the spins of these Carroll students are obviously good. However, I think Peter Oppeguard helped with the exquisite positions that Nikodinov achieved.
     
  30. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I disagree that Slutskaya was not formidable competition for Kwan. Regardless of what many think of her actual skating, she did up the ante technically and forced Kwan to skate clean to have any chance of winning. She beat Kwan many times in the early 00's when Kwan was still in her speak, although lost out at both worlds to her. Chen beat Kwan in 95 and challenged her at 96 worlds, after that she was a shadow of her former self. Regardless wheter Kwan should have easily beaten Hughes, Lipinkski, and Bute (who i think is by far the best skater of these 3) the simple matter is that she did lose out to them (and in Lipinskis case several times).