Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

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Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.8%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    51 vote(s)
    26.0%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.2%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.1%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.6%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.9%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.7%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.2%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    I do look at the other skaters and I think they are weak. I also dont think it was a case of Michelle being too good as the rare periods she faced someone who was even any good like Tara in 97-98 and Irina in 2001-2002 she often lost. Apart from that everyone she faced was quite mediocre and unthreatening though.
    Mao did a good job exposing the Kwan era skaters when as an underaged developing skater who only had her technical at that point, but not her later artistic skills, and not the reputation she would later have to get fair marks, she went a combined 6-1 vs Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa in the 2005-2006 season and is still referred to as the uncrowned 2006 Olympic winner. Mao isnt even the best skater of her own era though.
  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    How many clean SPs did we have in 2002 SLC? Wasn't it like ten? I think that's pretty incredible.

    I remember not looking as forward to the ladies competition in Vancouver because nobody was really hitting it for me in terms of just commanding the ice and competition (outside Yu Na Kim) during the 2007-2010. However, once the competition started, the ladies as a whole performed amazingly. Too bad the Mens competition (which I thought was the most competitive mens field ever) underperformed and ended up being sloppy as a whole (with some great performances).
  3. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    OK, it's your opinion.
    But again, you consider that her competitors were weak skaters. But what about Annett Poetzsch competitors ? Rosalynn Summers competitors ? Katarina Witt wompetitors ? ...
  4. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Kwan- underrotated triple flip. Not clean
    Slutskaya- break between footwork into triple flip and wobbled badly on last spin. Not clean.
    Cohen- did not complete the footwork sequence pattern. Not clean
    Hughes- flutz. Not clean.
    Butyrskaya- first clean skate but was boring and poor, hence her 5th place.
    Suguri- clean skate, undermarked.
    Sebeysten- clean skate, just jumps.
    Robinson- clean skate, poor skater.
    Gusmeroli- no footwork into triple flip, .3 deduction, not clean.

    So 4 clean skates I know of. There might be more but of the 9 I saw there were only 4. Unfortunately of the 5 good skaters in the event- Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Hughes, and Suguri, only 1 managed a clean short and 0 a clean long. Only the poor skaters did clean skates, like Jennifer stalk my triple lutz for 20 seconds Robinson and others.


    The mens event in Vancouver was so dissapointing. Had everyone skated their best Lysacek and Plushenko would have been down in 7th and 8th place, but they ended up 1st and 2nd. So much talent in the field but didnt deliver there. Should have just held it over again. The ladies event was great though even though I was mad Kim won, but she deserved it. I wanted Mao to win but she still made Olympic history so I was ok with that, and she atleast got silver. Poor Nagasu did skates good enough to medal and win any other Olympics and took only 4th.
  5. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Kwan was amazing and grew but also had some extraordinary competition. Maybe not in all areas but some. Kwan was so above so many but lots of her opponents were not average. Domination doesn't come from weak competition always. Maybe everyone was definitely inferior to shuba's figures. Maybe her opponents in figures werent average.
  6. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Schuba did benefit from a weak figures field as well. You can find scores on winter-olympic-memories.com and you will notice her figures scores arent that different than Fleming. However her competitors scores in figures are really low. Gaby Seyfert was said to be weak in figures but she was always 2nd when she stayed and competed in Trixi's era, and close enough to easily beat Schuba overall. I dont see how so many vote Fleming when Seyfert who was 2nd best to Fleming proved even old and past her prime she could easily dominate Trixi's era including Trixi herself, so Schuba would have to be the choice of weaker competition over her.

    As for the Kwan era if you remove Kwan then Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 time World Champion. That already says enough about the quality of competition in that era.
  7. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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  8. shady82

    shady82 New Member

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    Even if the 2010 Vancouver for men wasn't the best competition, it was still better than 2006. That event was the biggest splatfest ever. The only skater who skated decently in both portions of the competition was Plushenko. The silver and bronze medalists didn't skate well in both SP and LP.
  9. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Plushenko of 2006 would have crushed Lysacek of 2010 by about 30 points, just as he did the 2006 field. Lambiel of 2006 would have probably been about tied with Lysacek and Plushenko in 2010 considering he made way more mistakes in 2010 and was only about 10 points behind both. Buttle of 2006 was probably about the same as Takahashi in 2010 as well. So I would say almost equally weak but since the winner in 2006 was so much better than anyone in 2010 then 2006 is better just for that.
  10. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    This is hilarious! If all those performances were that bad, why didn't you win the short at the '02 Olympics?

    Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, and Hughes were clean enough in the judges eyes, and certainly mine. They weren't picky about Kwan's flip, and that was the only thing even close to a mistake that you mentioned.

    Clean essentially means land your jumps on 1 foot and show an overall refinement to the program while checking off the elements. They all did that.
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Member

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    Well if that is what was accepted as clean back then, it just shows how far ladies skating especialy has come since then. As for Hughes she deserved about 8th in the short. That was pretty much a consensus of all at the time. The best she would have managed is a bronze behind Slutskaya and Kwan with fair short program marks.
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Considering the scoring system and what the judges were rewarding, Kwan was facing skaters who were not only capable of performing (and had performed) more-or-less clean routines with at least six triple jumps, but also having triple/triple combinations and good-to-excellent spins.

    She faced the likes of a prime Lipinski, Lu Chen, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Shizuka Arakawa, Fumie Suguri (laugh or not but was a top five skater who could have spoiled), a rising Carolina Kostner, a rising Miki Ando, Sokolova who did two triple/triples at Worlds 2003 LP and a triple/triple in the SP, and the depth of American ladies that could have competed well at Worlds if they had qualified for Worlds out of Nationals.

    I think Kwan's competitors consistently performed at a high level against her even if they weren't always the same competitors. They usually performed more than 5 triples and if they had done five triples, it was seen as weak in Kwan's era. I know it's not applicable to now with skaters doing much more in the choreography and the elements being more technically-demanding, but compared to other 6.0 eras, I think Kwan had to fend off more clean and high-level performances than others on a longer period of time.

    Interesting to note that one thing Kwan and Kim have in common is that they both defeated skaters who performed a triple axel. Kim beat Mao in Vancouver and other competitions, and Kwan beat Nelidina, Yukari Nakano, and Kimmie Meissner (though Meissner's was cheated) who all performed triple axels at a competition in which Kwan won.

    If you're going to pick apart the relatively clean skates of the Ladies in 2002, then look at the past three Worlds for the ladies and check out the actual elements planned and performed. You'll see tons of deductions and negative GOE and technique calls even for skates that look clean as well.

    As to Hughes SP placement and a consensus, vocal FSU fans who don't like that Sarah Hughes is an Olympic champion is not a consensus. Although I do agree she should have been outside the top 6 for that SP, the judges themselves were split on that decision. The fact that her ordinals were all over the place shows just how hard it was to judge that event under 6.0 with all the more-or-less clean skates. I think every skater from 4th down had a wide range of ordinals that sometimes flip-flopped after a skater performed a clean program.
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  13. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    Have you thought about trying yoga?

    Adjusted for intrinsic weightiness (or lack thereof) of topic, Mel Gibson has nothing on you in terms of the technical difficulty (the number of convolutions) of the rant.

    (FYI: most Yuna fans have great respect for Michelle Kwan, particularly because she is Yuna's acknowledged role model and idol, and friend)
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  14. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps on a national level there was really no one other than Tara who could challenge Michelle. Sasha "seemed" to be the one to dethrone her but just did not have the competitive mindset to win.

    Michelle internationally was a great champion. In three of her world titles she had to be flawless in order to even have a shot at winning...in 2000 she even needed "the stars to align" going into the long program.

    She also never won the Olympics.

    So not sure how her competition was "average" when two of her U.S. rivals ended up being Olympic Champions, and in three of her five world titles, she needed perfectly executed 7 triple programs with the 3/3 (in 2000 and 2001) in order to win.

    Its not like she flopped on her butt the whole time but ended up winning because everyone around her was "average".
  15. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    LOL why are you playing sarcastic? YOU are the one who owe some apology to Yu-Na fans.

    I repeat: please, show us a single example, past or current, where Yu-Na fans tried to dismiss Kwan’s or any other’s accomplishments as compiled against a weak field. That was your claim, right?

    Outrageous and funny, at the same time. Never underestimate evil spirit of those J-bots! :lol: I’m calling them J-bots, since I’m now convinced they are not particularly worthy fans of Asada, either.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How the heck is Anett Poetzsch not winning this poll. OK I admit I dont like her skating at all, but this isnt even about the deemed leading skater herself as much as who they competed against (unless I am misinterpreting this thread) and that was such a sucky bad era at the very top with boring Poetzsch, boring Fratianne, and ultra boring Lurz hogging all the podiums. Poetzsch herself had to bomb like she did at the 77 and 79 Worlds to lose since Fratianne was so much weaker than her in figures, and not outstanding enough in free skating herself to make up all the difference even vs Anett's moderately good (at best) free skating. She won the Olympics despite not doing her best in any of the 3 phases, and bombing the short program, and her chief rival (Fratianne) skating her absolute best, and then won another Worlds to end her career despite bombing both the short and long there with her worst skates of the season (though she did her best in figures unlike the Games) so that says something to her competition. There was none.

    I know Schuba won competitions more easily than Poetzsch because of figures but her figures were other wordly and the best ever, which I never heard anyone say about Poetzsch, just excellent and the best in the World at figures at the time but nothing historic. Plus Schuba and her figures were able to win her competitions over a stellar group of skaters like Lynn, Holmes, Magnussen, Morgenstram, Seyfert, and the rest, not dull generic good skaters like Fratianne and Lurz.
  17. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Kwan in 2003 was so far ahead in presentation it was almost like a military battle between the USA vs. Jamaica in the second mark. I personally feel Sokolova needed those 3-3 combos to justify herself medaling even third. She could jump and was a cutie, but there was nothing between the jumps besides bouncy movements and unsophisticated and dull choreography.
  18. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Oh dear God. Can you just shut up for once?!! You're like an atomic time bomb and stop embarrassing the rest of Yuna fans on this board even more. :rolleyes:
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  19. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree with this, and don't know why anyone would choose Kwan over Poetzsch for this. Granted she was post figures era but Kwan had to deal with Chen, Bobek, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Hughes, Suguri, Kostner etc..
  20. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    And Arakawa, too.
  21. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    Of the people who were around since I started to follow skating on this poll- Ito, Yamaguchi, Kwan, Slutskaya, Kim, Asada, Witt; the weakest competition was Kwan and Slutskaya (basically tied since they were in the exact same era) with Kwan having the easier competition if one has to pick as she only had to face Irina while Irina had to face Michelle. So for that reason I chose Kwan. Alot are saying Poetzsch and Fleming had weak competition but I know nothing about those eras so I cant really judge them. I had never heard of Poetzsch until glancing the list of winners one day, so she must not be a memorable figure in the sport but stil knowing nothing about her era I cant pick her.
  22. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I had thought of that as well, and pretty much why sums up why I voted for Kwan. What a nightmare that would be, a sloppy and fugly skater like Slutskaya winning that many World titles, but without Kwan it would have happened since Irina was 2nd to Michelle so many times. Pretty much means for the most part the others must have kind of sucked. That isnt to take anything away from Kwan, the one and only brilliant skater of that era.
  23. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    As for Poetzsch, if some posters haven't watched the 1980 vids and seen at least her and Linda's boring skating, I sympathize with your plight. It was a little hard to get through Fratianne and harder to get through Poetzsch. Lurz I just watched for the first time just now, and I see I wasn't missing anything. Biellman, Watanabe, and Lisa Marie Allen were more entertaining skaters.
  24. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I was too young to see any of Poetzsch and Fratianne and havent bothered to look them up on tapes. From what people have told me it isnt worth the time or effort, even to see if they are a worthy choice in a poll like this or not. A friend of mind told me Fratianne was a poor womens Kerrigan, but she was still the better in free skating anyway between her and Poetzsch. I also have heard Linda did the most boring and tedious Carmen ever and used it 3 years in a row, ever wearing the same dress for both short and long programs several years in a row, and used her previous long program 3 years in a row before that.
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  25. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    If I have something to say, I'll say it. If you think you can say it better, please go ahead. All these lecturers including you and l'etoile, remained silent when Yu-Na and her fans were under unfair attack from the haters, even during the Orser-Kim split. Stop giving me your silly lecture until you have better things to say. It's not been like I was jumping into threads without leaving sufficient time for other well-spoken Yu-Na fans to react first. You get it?
  26. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

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    I tried to look info on Trixi Schubert online but couldnt find a skater under that name. Could anyone inform me who this Trixi Schubert is. Or did the person mean the famous figures specialist Trixi Schuba and was making fun of her in some way?
  27. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Linda Fratianne wearing the same dress for the SP and FS is kind of strange. It reminds me of Danny Kwan making Michelle dress like a spelling bee contestant. None of the other ladies in 1980 were doing that, so I am sure a few judges thought she was odd. It seems like the men were getting very glammed up in different SP and FS costumes circa 1980.
  28. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    This is my last reply to you because you're a lunatic and a war-freak. Every time there's a post that is different from your view all of a sudden he/she is a bot. There's no conspiracy twat. I know there are a lot of haters online and in this forum but the more you engaged to them and start generalizing then you're no different from them. So, go ahead try to make a fool out of yourself.
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  29. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think I saw a few seconds of Poetzsch on YouTube and then switched it off because I was bored lol.
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  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I would like a video of Fratianne skating (or Poetzsch for that matter) when I am the dentist, and the freezing or laughing gas is not working as hoped. About otherwise not really. I would say Lurz except I think of that butler at the Addams family (forget his name) everytime I see him skate with those slow lurching movements and that hunchy posture. Actually isnt his name Lurch, so I guess her name Lurz is appropriate.
  31. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    What does that even mean?

    Linda used Carmen for her SP in 76 and for her LPs for 79 and 80. She used Schez for her LP in 76 and 78. She re-wore her SP dress in Lake Placid for her LP at the games, because she was superstitious, and she had skated very well in that same dress for the SP.

    Linda skated to whatever Frank told her to skate to, so any complaints about her music choices and programs have to be directed at Frank. The only exception where Linda went out on her own was when Frank wanted her to skate to Sleeping Beauty for the 80 Olympic LP, but Linda was adamant about sticking with Carmen; Since she re-won her World title in 79 with Carmen, Linda's superstitious nature influenced her to stay with Carmen for the 80 season as well.

    There have been hundreds, if not thousands, of Carmens in skating history. I'm pretty sure Linda's wasn't the "most boring and tedious Carmen ever".

    ----

    Here are two of Linda's best performances as an amateur. They showed the tremendous potential that she had as a teenager:

    76 Nationals LP

    77 Worlds SP
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2013
  32. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Linda showed amazing potential as a young skater. Little did anyone know the 76 Nationals was as good as she was ever going to be (apart from improvement in figures).
  33. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Great website!! Shows that in figures schubas opponents weren't even average!! So few benefitted more than her because figures meant so much!

    Impossible!! In 2006 plushenko doubled a jump So in all reality it's possible that under the 2010 scoring system lysacek would've beaten plushenkos 2006 skate too. Under 2006 rules likely that plushenko wouldve won in 2010 too.
  34. centerstage01

    centerstage01 Well-Known Member

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    I'm almost half convinced that if people see Kwan's name in a poll, they'll vote for her, regardless of what the topic might be. Which is the only explanation as to why she's winning this poll.
  35. TripleWallie

    TripleWallie New Member

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    Oh poor Michelle Kwan is being attacked by those Yuna-bots again! It must be them--what else could explain any poll result that I disagree with? When a poll doesn't reflect what I know is reality, it must be the Yuna-bots at work...

    So who's delusional again? :rolleyes:
  36. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Baiul had pretty weak competition. Surya was her main rival and she was never being handed a gold medal unless the others failed to show up. Kerrigan was never a rival which is the main reason the judges probably didn't give her the gold in Lillehammer, they didn't like the idea of a fluke win. Ito wasn't there, Yamaguchi wasn't there. Lu Chen was just up and coming and was from China so she had absolutely no political backing. Baiul managed to win the Olympics with no triple in combination and a ton of posing. I love her, don't get me wrong, but she was so lucky to win that competition. She also high tailed it out of there just in the nick of time.

    There is no way Kwan had the weakest competition. People are voting for her as a joke, to protect their favorite, etc. You don't stay on top of a sport for 10 years and never come across stiff competition. Kwan faced enough competition for 3 lifetimes in this sport. It's cute though, Kwan wins all the polls around here. :)

    Kwan had to compete against Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Hughes, Lipinski, Bobek, Suguri, and countless others. Kwan won 5 world gold medals in this time but her competitors won 4 others plus 2 olympic titles. I guess Kwan should take it as a compliment, she was so damn good no one was even competition for her.
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2013
  37. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    I also voted Baiul. She won that rare Winter Olympic on a 2 year cycle when Kristi/Midori had retired, and Michelle/Tara had yet be reckoned with. It was a 2 year lull between two very fierce periods. Her main competition Kerrigan/Bonaly wasn't nearly as strong. Even Chen, while underated, still placed under all of Midori, Kristi, Michelle and Tara at the biggest competitions (once Michelle and Tara came of age, of course).
  38. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree Baiuls competition was somehwhat weak in 93-94, and so was her technical difficulty. Interestingly though she lost both times at Euros, but probably still shouldn't have won 93 worlds over Bonaly and Chen. It seems once Kerrigan bombed the long, the judges propped up Baiul (who had the ballerina qualities) to be the next champion. Sato and Chouinard could've been formidable competitors but usually performed poorly at big competitions. So there was great skaters during this period, but they either habitually underperformed or weren't yet peaked (Chen). Had she stayed on past 94, I have no doubt she would be crushed by Kwan, Chen, Bobek, Slutskaya, Markova and even a rejuvenated Chouinard and Butyrskaya.
  39. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Why do none of Frank Carroll's lady skaters have attractive spin positions? Technically they are good enough spinners, but Fratianne and Kwan both had blah looking, boring spins.
  40. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Karen Kwan had wonderful spins. Michelle Kwan may not have had the best flexibility or speed, but she had great classic positions (other than the layback) and they were usually well-centered and looked clean with a variety of positions (even if they were not the most versatile). I'm not sure about Linda, but I think spinning simply wasn't Michelle Kwan's forte. She did work with Evelyn Kramer in the 1999-2000 season to improve on them, and she did, but they still weren't baby ballerina or Slutskaya level (although I think Michelle Kwan had one of the best sit spins-backwards and forwards). Her spinning in 2002 and probably 2004-2005 seasons were probably her best without Frank, but even then they weren't the best of the competition with the likes of Cohen, Slutskaya, and Arakawa (although Arakawa's spins tended to be slow and without the donut, her camels would've lacked stretch).