Which lady had weakest competition during time on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Jun 1, 2013.

Which lady had weakest overall average level competiion while on top in primes

  1. Anett Pootosh

    27 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Michelle Kwan

    52 vote(s)
    26.4%
  3. Kim Yu Na

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  4. Irina Slutskaya

    6 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. Rosalynn Summer

    11 vote(s)
    5.6%
  6. Katarina Witt

    5 vote(s)
    2.5%
  7. Kristi Yamaguchi

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  8. Midori Ito

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  9. Oksana Baiul

    37 vote(s)
    18.8%
  10. Dorothy Hamill

    15 vote(s)
    7.6%
  11. Peggy Fleming

    16 vote(s)
    8.1%
  12. Trixi Schubert

    8 vote(s)
    4.1%
  1. torren

    torren New Member

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    This ladies field is not weaker at all than the ones from a generation earlier. There are many great competitors, especially Mao. The rivaly Kim vs Asada was not low level

    i know you are a kim's fan. then, why don't you agree with me that kim era's Ladies field was not weak???although this claim would be good for kim, too?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  2. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    Bottoms are actually much tougher than tops. :hat1: ;) :p
     
  3. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Why not, tell me, when I have enough suspicion.

    Is it good for any public forum when a certain group of posters keep posting obviously loaded poll questions and subsequent coalition posts over and over again? In the case of this thread, in an obvious attempt to create controversies/enmities among the fans of present and past skaters? Don't blame me. If you can't get it (although I think you do get it), look at muse****'s post #12 as an example. Let's not play innocent and ignorant.
     
  4. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Oh dear, my opinion has nothing to do with me being a Yu-Na fan.
     
  5. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I'm so :EVILLE:. I'm going to FSU jail. :2faced:
     
  6. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    This thread isnt about weakest skater. It is about who had the weakest competition. I voted for Michelle for that. Besides Tara in 1997-1998 and Irina in 2001-2002 there was nobody who could challenge her at all during her prime from 1996-2004. Including Tara in 1997 is even generous since Michelle was so depressed with her own disaesterous skating at the time she was crying endlessly and called it her coma, and Tara still had to skate perfectly with loads of triple-triples to barely beat her, and even then with some controversy.

    Listing ones achievements being so high only makes it more likely they had weaker competition. While in rare instance someone compiles one of the best records ever even with stronger competition, the likelihood of greater achievements and dominance is made higher by poorer competition, so listing how much Kwan has achieved only makes it more likely even if not a guarantee, her competition was probably poorer.
     
  7. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Asada is a superior skater to Slutskaya. She was beating Slutskaya when she was underaged for Worlds and Olympics and Slutskaya was at her peak. Technically stronger, no. Mao does triple axels which Irina never went near, and does triple-triples much more consistently than Irina did too. She also has better spins probably, and much better spirals. Granted technical they are atleast closer than in artistic where Irina is one of the poorest ever World Champions.

    Cohen gets lower PCS in her prime than Asada usually gets the last 5 years, so I wouldnt say she is stronger in performance, and in technique she is poor for any top 6 level skater in any random time period, let alone compared to Kim and Asada, two all time great technical skaters.

    Asada > Slutskaya
    Kostner or Ando > Cohen
    Ando or Rochette >> Hughes, Butyrskaya, whoever is left of Kwan's competition that lasted more than 13 months
     
  8. karlon

    karlon New Member

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    I was very unpleasant to that post, too. but she is not Japanese surely.
    I hope that some posters don't make more controversy which is not related with the title of thread, regardless of who's fault
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it's because she was too good for the others !
    You have to compare entire fields, not just winners. The fact that the winner was clearly superior to the others doesn't make the field weak ! LOL
     
  10. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Irina yes was competition. Tara was for 13 months, which would have been 0-2 months had Kwan not driven herself to tears and a coma by her own words with her worst ever skating in 1997. The rest? Not. Lu Chen was Michelle's competition for 1 event- 1996 Worlds. Maria was competition for Michelle if she fell 4 or 5 times. Sarah pretty much the same. Sasha maybe could have been competition but cant keep herself from falling over and over.
     
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    I do look at the other skaters and I think they are weak. I also dont think it was a case of Michelle being too good as the rare periods she faced someone who was even any good like Tara in 97-98 and Irina in 2001-2002 she often lost. Apart from that everyone she faced was quite mediocre and unthreatening though.
    Mao did a good job exposing the Kwan era skaters when as an underaged developing skater who only had her technical at that point, but not her later artistic skills, and not the reputation she would later have to get fair marks, she went a combined 6-1 vs Slutskaya, Cohen, Arakawa in the 2005-2006 season and is still referred to as the uncrowned 2006 Olympic winner. Mao isnt even the best skater of her own era though.
     
  12. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    How many clean SPs did we have in 2002 SLC? Wasn't it like ten? I think that's pretty incredible.

    I remember not looking as forward to the ladies competition in Vancouver because nobody was really hitting it for me in terms of just commanding the ice and competition (outside Yu Na Kim) during the 2007-2010. However, once the competition started, the ladies as a whole performed amazingly. Too bad the Mens competition (which I thought was the most competitive mens field ever) underperformed and ended up being sloppy as a whole (with some great performances).
     
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    OK, it's your opinion.
    But again, you consider that her competitors were weak skaters. But what about Annett Poetzsch competitors ? Rosalynn Summers competitors ? Katarina Witt wompetitors ? ...
     
  14. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Kwan- underrotated triple flip. Not clean
    Slutskaya- break between footwork into triple flip and wobbled badly on last spin. Not clean.
    Cohen- did not complete the footwork sequence pattern. Not clean
    Hughes- flutz. Not clean.
    Butyrskaya- first clean skate but was boring and poor, hence her 5th place.
    Suguri- clean skate, undermarked.
    Sebeysten- clean skate, just jumps.
    Robinson- clean skate, poor skater.
    Gusmeroli- no footwork into triple flip, .3 deduction, not clean.

    So 4 clean skates I know of. There might be more but of the 9 I saw there were only 4. Unfortunately of the 5 good skaters in the event- Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, Hughes, and Suguri, only 1 managed a clean short and 0 a clean long. Only the poor skaters did clean skates, like Jennifer stalk my triple lutz for 20 seconds Robinson and others.


    The mens event in Vancouver was so dissapointing. Had everyone skated their best Lysacek and Plushenko would have been down in 7th and 8th place, but they ended up 1st and 2nd. So much talent in the field but didnt deliver there. Should have just held it over again. The ladies event was great though even though I was mad Kim won, but she deserved it. I wanted Mao to win but she still made Olympic history so I was ok with that, and she atleast got silver. Poor Nagasu did skates good enough to medal and win any other Olympics and took only 4th.
     
  15. caseyedwards

    caseyedwards Well-Known Member

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    Kwan was amazing and grew but also had some extraordinary competition. Maybe not in all areas but some. Kwan was so above so many but lots of her opponents were not average. Domination doesn't come from weak competition always. Maybe everyone was definitely inferior to shuba's figures. Maybe her opponents in figures werent average.
     
  16. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Schuba did benefit from a weak figures field as well. You can find scores on winter-olympic-memories.com and you will notice her figures scores arent that different than Fleming. However her competitors scores in figures are really low. Gaby Seyfert was said to be weak in figures but she was always 2nd when she stayed and competed in Trixi's era, and close enough to easily beat Schuba overall. I dont see how so many vote Fleming when Seyfert who was 2nd best to Fleming proved even old and past her prime she could easily dominate Trixi's era including Trixi herself, so Schuba would have to be the choice of weaker competition over her.

    As for the Kwan era if you remove Kwan then Slutskaya is a 5 or 6 time World Champion. That already says enough about the quality of competition in that era.
     
  17. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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  18. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

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    Even if the 2010 Vancouver for men wasn't the best competition, it was still better than 2006. That event was the biggest splatfest ever. The only skater who skated decently in both portions of the competition was Plushenko. The silver and bronze medalists didn't skate well in both SP and LP.
     
  19. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Plushenko of 2006 would have crushed Lysacek of 2010 by about 30 points, just as he did the 2006 field. Lambiel of 2006 would have probably been about tied with Lysacek and Plushenko in 2010 considering he made way more mistakes in 2010 and was only about 10 points behind both. Buttle of 2006 was probably about the same as Takahashi in 2010 as well. So I would say almost equally weak but since the winner in 2006 was so much better than anyone in 2010 then 2006 is better just for that.
     
  20. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    This is hilarious! If all those performances were that bad, why didn't you win the short at the '02 Olympics?

    Kwan, Slutskaya, Cohen, and Hughes were clean enough in the judges eyes, and certainly mine. They weren't picky about Kwan's flip, and that was the only thing even close to a mistake that you mentioned.

    Clean essentially means land your jumps on 1 foot and show an overall refinement to the program while checking off the elements. They all did that.
     
  21. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

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    Well if that is what was accepted as clean back then, it just shows how far ladies skating especialy has come since then. As for Hughes she deserved about 8th in the short. That was pretty much a consensus of all at the time. The best she would have managed is a bronze behind Slutskaya and Kwan with fair short program marks.
     
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Considering the scoring system and what the judges were rewarding, Kwan was facing skaters who were not only capable of performing (and had performed) more-or-less clean routines with at least six triple jumps, but also having triple/triple combinations and good-to-excellent spins.

    She faced the likes of a prime Lipinski, Lu Chen, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Shizuka Arakawa, Fumie Suguri (laugh or not but was a top five skater who could have spoiled), a rising Carolina Kostner, a rising Miki Ando, Sokolova who did two triple/triples at Worlds 2003 LP and a triple/triple in the SP, and the depth of American ladies that could have competed well at Worlds if they had qualified for Worlds out of Nationals.

    I think Kwan's competitors consistently performed at a high level against her even if they weren't always the same competitors. They usually performed more than 5 triples and if they had done five triples, it was seen as weak in Kwan's era. I know it's not applicable to now with skaters doing much more in the choreography and the elements being more technically-demanding, but compared to other 6.0 eras, I think Kwan had to fend off more clean and high-level performances than others on a longer period of time.

    Interesting to note that one thing Kwan and Kim have in common is that they both defeated skaters who performed a triple axel. Kim beat Mao in Vancouver and other competitions, and Kwan beat Nelidina, Yukari Nakano, and Kimmie Meissner (though Meissner's was cheated) who all performed triple axels at a competition in which Kwan won.

    If you're going to pick apart the relatively clean skates of the Ladies in 2002, then look at the past three Worlds for the ladies and check out the actual elements planned and performed. You'll see tons of deductions and negative GOE and technique calls even for skates that look clean as well.

    As to Hughes SP placement and a consensus, vocal FSU fans who don't like that Sarah Hughes is an Olympic champion is not a consensus. Although I do agree she should have been outside the top 6 for that SP, the judges themselves were split on that decision. The fact that her ordinals were all over the place shows just how hard it was to judge that event under 6.0 with all the more-or-less clean skates. I think every skater from 4th down had a wide range of ordinals that sometimes flip-flopped after a skater performed a clean program.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2013
  23. Robeye

    Robeye Curiously curious

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    Have you thought about trying yoga?

    Adjusted for intrinsic weightiness (or lack thereof) of topic, Mel Gibson has nothing on you in terms of the technical difficulty (the number of convolutions) of the rant.

    (FYI: most Yuna fans have great respect for Michelle Kwan, particularly because she is Yuna's acknowledged role model and idol, and friend)
     
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  24. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps on a national level there was really no one other than Tara who could challenge Michelle. Sasha "seemed" to be the one to dethrone her but just did not have the competitive mindset to win.

    Michelle internationally was a great champion. In three of her world titles she had to be flawless in order to even have a shot at winning...in 2000 she even needed "the stars to align" going into the long program.

    She also never won the Olympics.

    So not sure how her competition was "average" when two of her U.S. rivals ended up being Olympic Champions, and in three of her five world titles, she needed perfectly executed 7 triple programs with the 3/3 (in 2000 and 2001) in order to win.

    Its not like she flopped on her butt the whole time but ended up winning because everyone around her was "average".
     
  25. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    LOL why are you playing sarcastic? YOU are the one who owe some apology to Yu-Na fans.

    I repeat: please, show us a single example, past or current, where Yu-Na fans tried to dismiss Kwan’s or any other’s accomplishments as compiled against a weak field. That was your claim, right?

    Outrageous and funny, at the same time. Never underestimate evil spirit of those J-bots! :lol: I’m calling them J-bots, since I’m now convinced they are not particularly worthy fans of Asada, either.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    How the heck is Anett Poetzsch not winning this poll. OK I admit I dont like her skating at all, but this isnt even about the deemed leading skater herself as much as who they competed against (unless I am misinterpreting this thread) and that was such a sucky bad era at the very top with boring Poetzsch, boring Fratianne, and ultra boring Lurz hogging all the podiums. Poetzsch herself had to bomb like she did at the 77 and 79 Worlds to lose since Fratianne was so much weaker than her in figures, and not outstanding enough in free skating herself to make up all the difference even vs Anett's moderately good (at best) free skating. She won the Olympics despite not doing her best in any of the 3 phases, and bombing the short program, and her chief rival (Fratianne) skating her absolute best, and then won another Worlds to end her career despite bombing both the short and long there with her worst skates of the season (though she did her best in figures unlike the Games) so that says something to her competition. There was none.

    I know Schuba won competitions more easily than Poetzsch because of figures but her figures were other wordly and the best ever, which I never heard anyone say about Poetzsch, just excellent and the best in the World at figures at the time but nothing historic. Plus Schuba and her figures were able to win her competitions over a stellar group of skaters like Lynn, Holmes, Magnussen, Morgenstram, Seyfert, and the rest, not dull generic good skaters like Fratianne and Lurz.
     
  27. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Kwan in 2003 was so far ahead in presentation it was almost like a military battle between the USA vs. Jamaica in the second mark. I personally feel Sokolova needed those 3-3 combos to justify herself medaling even third. She could jump and was a cutie, but there was nothing between the jumps besides bouncy movements and unsophisticated and dull choreography.
     
  28. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

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    Oh dear God. Can you just shut up for once?!! You're like an atomic time bomb and stop embarrassing the rest of Yuna fans on this board even more. :rolleyes:
     
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  29. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

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    I agree with this, and don't know why anyone would choose Kwan over Poetzsch for this. Granted she was post figures era but Kwan had to deal with Chen, Bobek, Lipinski, Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Cohen, Hughes, Suguri, Kostner etc..
     
  30. giselle23

    giselle23 Active Member

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    And Arakawa, too.