Which ladies singles skater has performed the best triple axel in competition so far?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jan 6, 2013.

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Which ladies singles skater has performed the best triple axel in competition so far?

Poll closed Feb 6, 2013.
  1. Midori Ito

    93 vote(s)
    62.0%
  2. Tonya Harding

    36 vote(s)
    24.0%
  3. Ludmila Nelidina

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. Yukari Nakano

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Kimmie Meissner

    2 vote(s)
    1.3%
  6. Mao Asada

    19 vote(s)
    12.7%
  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

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    Just popularity? Just number of "attempts"? Midori definitely has the highest percentage of LANDING the 3A's- not just attempting them. She did not under rotate, and her speed and power were unmatched. The leg wrap did not bother me at all, just like you are not bothered by other weaknesses in Mao's 3A (and I am a Mao fan who wants her to go for the 3A).

    I am not sure what you mean by "not on consistent technique" unless you meant "perfect technique". Midori's 3A was better and more consistent than some of the men of her time! Mao's 3A has never been consistent, but I respected her for going for 3 of those in the 2010 Olympics, and landing them. I don't recall her landing one since (may be she landed one at 2010 worlds? - that was a long time ago). Midori landed her first one in competition in 1989, and she landed one even in 1996. That's a 7 years span. Most men won't last that long.
     
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The people who are voting for Mao are probably voting for her based on her trying 3 triple axels per competition which was unheard of even for Ito and Harding, and landing all 3 and having them all ratified on the biggest stage of all (the Olympics). While I dont agree, it is still reasonable logic. I cant believe anyone would be so crazy to think her 3 axel is the best quality one, or is voting for her based on that. Harding being so far behind Ito is logical, her triple axel was also huge, but really quite ugly compared to her other jumps, always a bad lean, which is why most times she fell on it, and close replays of her landings show the ones she landed she was always on the verge of a fall on a very precarious edge, no doubt due to the big lean in the air she always has. In other jumps Harding was amazing when she was on, her triple axel was impressive due to the size, but the execution and quality is not near Itos with the bad air position and general wildness.
     
  3. muffinbiscuit

    muffinbiscuit Member

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    I've always felt that Midori's leg wrap was unconditionally forgiven due to the speed, height and power of her jumps. I can't forgive it in other skaters like Nakano.
     
  4. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Kimmie Meisnner never landed a triple jump in international competition. If she's in this poll, Sawada should be too (at least if there's a video).

    Other than Brandon Mroz's quadruple lutz, has the ISU ever homologated ratified a jump in domestic competition? It certainly never ratified Meissner's triple axel, and I doubt it would have done so if it reviewed the jump carefully. It looks underrotated.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The wrap was only really bad on the triple lutz (and I never considered her as having the best triple lutz for that reason). The triple axel is usually wasnt bad at all.
     
  6. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    What? You expect me to believe that Joanne Carter landed a triple axel? As of late, the Australian ladies are still working on doubles. I doubt that any of the beautiful sheilas, fine as they may be, has pulled around or held a landing on the 3A.

    As an aside, I want to add Joanne Carter was great for Australia. It is sad how comically bad the AUS ladies are today in every aspect, from jumps to footwork to costumes. After you lose to Mexico and South Africa at 4CC is when you have to reevaluate what you're doing. Is Cheltzie Lee hopefully coming back to redeem the mess somewhat?
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2013
  7. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    The problem for Josée was over-rotating jumps in practice and in competition. So it wasn't surprising that she would try hot mess triple axels in practice. She often fell on her double axels in international competition (checking those landings was a problem). She cannot be considered-- even if she met the criteria of this poll-- to have actually achieved a great triple axel. She had the potential to do a brilliant one, but I swear the odds are with her technical problems it would never have made it to competition. I believed she claimed to have it as a pro circa 2001, but did the public ever see any?
     
  8. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

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    Did 2 people really vote for Kimmie ???? u crazy
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Josee had big jumps and great rotational ability but she seemed to have real problems with control, often landing jumps overrotated or stiff legged, even on easier triples and the double axel. I cant imagine her holding the edge with the impact of a triple axel that often, especialy when you combine her nerve issues in competition.

    Kimmie had by far the worst and ugliest triple axel I ever saw done btw. I would go with Miki Ando`s easily rotated but narrowly missed on the landing triple axels over Kimmie`s stood up by URed one which shouldnt have even counted.
     
  10. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    The problem with the Sawada 3A is, which competition(s) were they landed in? There not specified anywhere. There are no videos, no competition reports, and no other evidence. There is nothing to go on, no verification. If anybody has any further info, please post.

    It would appear that she did not land any 3A's from 2004 onwards (i.e. the age of 15 onwards) and there is a reference in the article you provided a link to of consistency problems. Moreover, the same article refers to 1 clean triple axel in a "national competition" as opposed to multiple clean triple axels. My best guesstimate as to which "national competition" - the Japanese Junior Nationals which took place in November 2003, in which she finished 3rd. These were the only Nationals she participated in prior to the said article. However, I have not been able to find any confirmation that she landed a triple axel in that competition. Hence, its something of a mystery.
     
  11. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

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    I guess Midori's 3x should be considered of the best overall quality. However, I voted for Tonya because something about Tonya's explosiveness was exciting to me. Her 3x seemed to have more power to it.
     
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  12. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Yeah who was the referee at that Nationals for ladies? She/he must have a sense of humor. It was certainly a joke.

    I think officials/USFSA/ABC knew it might be the only time she ever landed it, so the opportunity was then or never to give her that publicity boost.
     
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  13. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    Consistency, shmonsistency. :blah:

    When did Meissner or Nelidina ever have a consistent triple axel?

    My knowledge of (1) Japanese and (2) Japanese ice skating isn't good enough for me to do much investigating, but her ISU profile says, "Sawada has landed triple Axels in national competitions." Apparently, she did it more than once.

    Here is a link to her English-language Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aki_Sawada.

    She competed at Japan Juniors in the 2001-02 and 2002-03 seasons as well as in 2003-04 and twice thereafter. She also competed at Japan Novices in 2000-01 and 2001-02. Presumably, she also competed at some level in Regionals and/or Sectionals prior to October 2004, so there are several competitions at which she might have landed a triple axel. Unfortunately, this was all before the Japanese Federation adopted CoP, so any protocols from those events are not going to be of much use.
     
  14. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, she was landing them in practice at nationals in 1997. Joanne was also landing 3loop/3loop combinations in practice there as well. Such a shame a knee injury in early 1999 put her out of sorts until 2005.
     
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  15. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

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    Exactly, it remains a mystery. Hopefully, somebody at some point will be able to specify the competition(s) and post some links to some articles/reports on them.
     
  16. NadineWhite

    NadineWhite Well-Known Member

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    Lol I see the comment I posted 3 yrs. ago on youtube concerning the aforementioned triple axel video received too many negatives, thus it was marked as spam. *boohoo*

    Anyhow re-posting my original comment in its entirety here. And that's all I have to say about that. :p



    I've been watching this sport since the 70's and IMHO the best I have ever seen are:

    (1) TONYA HARDING - perfect, no leg wrap, phenomenal height & distance, no pre/under rotation issues ever.

    (2) MIDORI ITO - except for the leg wrap, she ties Tonya Harding. These two are the true class of the field, no one touches their power, height, full revolutions.

    (3) MAO ASADA - she's not in the class of the two aforementioned, but she's the closest I've ever seen. She never plays it safe!
     
  17. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    I saw her attempting and falling on some in practice at 2003 Worlds.
     
  18. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I was in Edmonton, and Maria was picture perfect. Her 3axels were quite amazing, so good I can't believe she didn't go for it. As easy as a double. That Slute got the bronze was a travesty. Maria was winning the practices, even with Michelle and Lu. Her not placing and having that mess of a Broadway bastardization win the bronze is just so wrong.

    Tonya Harding was way off the circle and had the most crooked axel. Even with her speed and power, it was always off center. She landed it, but it was pretty ugly.

    I will take a leap, and say that Yukari Nakano was way underappreciated. Her axel got around, and she is probably one of the loveliest skaters to ever compete. Was it 2008 where she was just robbed? Everyone in the building knew she won. I prefer Yukari's axel to Mao's. Yukari was not just a strikingly beautiful woman, her skating was striking. I will never understand 2008.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UeSwUNLqFkE

    "A champion's performance". And she didn't even medal. My hate for Kostner and her mumbling and stumbling started here.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
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  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed on all of that.
     
  20. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    She skated with a beautiful spirit, and I feel sad for anyone who missed out on her beauty and her spins just because of her wrap on the lutz and flip. She had a good 3A (without much leg wrap).

    Yukari gets little publicity save for the fact that she's one of the five ladies in the triple axel club. She was robbed by her federation in both 2006 and 2010. She was so obviously the third qualifier for Japan's Olympic contingent in 2006, but the Japan Federation made a nonsense decision that revealed how ashamed they were about sending Miki Ando. They sent Miki to Olympics (as she was their #1 star), and for no official reason (as far as I know) Yukari was elected to Worlds. They did not have to explain why since everyone thought it was because Miki was undeserving of an Olympic assignment and only chosen to satisfy the expectations of sponsors.

    The situation was likewise lamentable in 2010. I think Akiko demonstrated she deserved the Olympic spot. While Miki finished higher than Akiko (somehow), Miki probably should have been left home in favor of Yukari. Miki proved unnecessary and dispensible at both Olympics and Worlds. She couldn't even beat Laura Lepisto at Worlds, probably because nobody liked that drag-inspired Cleopatra mess. So I have no problem declaring that Yukari should have been chosen for 2010 instead of Miki. Shafting or appearing to shaft Nakano twice is not something the JSF should be allowed to live down.

    The federation, and one could start a blog with complaints about them, still does batty things. However, today they seem to understand IJS and the Japanese skaters' potential.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  21. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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    Maria said in interviews circa 1999 that her triple axels always landed on her posterior. She was a strong woman, but it's hard to believe she was close in 1996. Then again, it is hard to believe she was still pulling off all the jumps she did in Vancouver in 2001.
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  22. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

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  23. mikemba

    mikemba Active Member

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    Someone characterized the above as spam? I think it's an excellent analysis. I believe that none other than Kristi Yamaguchi would agree with you re: points one and two. She said in an interview that Tonya's triple axel was even more beautiful than Midori's. And Kristi probably saw a lot of triple axels by both Midori and Tonya in practice.

    As for little ol' non-expert me, I think I give a small edge to Midori, but I'm not sure whether I am being unduly influenced by the facts that 1) she was the first, 2) she landed much more of them in competition than did Tonya and 3) she landed them for a much longer time frame than did Tonya.

    But as far as the quality of the jump, I'm torn and need to watch the videos again. It's kind of like choosing between my 2 favorite desserts: both are so fabulous that one day one is my favorite and the next day the other one is. Midori and Tonya were both amazing!
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2013
  24. muffinbiscuit

    muffinbiscuit Member

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    I have seen mention in this thread of "ugly in the air". Is there an actual deduction for this if the jump itself is perfectly taken off, landed, has good speed and height?
     
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    I think the air position is part of GOE.
     
  26. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    For the fans that voted Tonya as having the best 3A ..... you guys don't mind that her Axel was always tilted outside of the circle mid-air and had a wide swinging free leg on the landing? It was only through sheer strength that Tonya was able to not lose the revolutions mid-air and hung onto the landing edge. I'm sure the wildness of Tonya's technique contributed to the excitement and Wow factor of her 3A, but I would never classify it as textbook perfect.

    Midori crossed her free leg at the knee or below the knee on her jumps. I wouldn't classify it as a wrap. Claudia Kristofic-Binder and Erin Pearl had true leg wraps, and their jumps appeared small and the revolutions looked slowed in the air. Midori's crossed legs never caused that issue for her.

    --------


    I think Kimmi had good lift into her 3A. The one landed at Nationals was wonky and arguably under-rotated, but the practice footage showed that Kimmi was able to do very nice completed ones.

    The ugliest 3A would have to be Nakano's. She barely got off the ground throughout the whole jump; Her technique diminished the power of the Axel jump.
     
  27. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

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    The way the GOE rules currently work, there's a recommended reduction for "Poor speed, height, distance, air position" of -1 to -2, and positive bullet points (recommended two for each +GOE) include

    3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
    4) good height and distance
    7) effortless throughout


    So if Ito for example achieves positive bullet points 4 and 7 a judge would start out thinking +1 for the jump and then if they consider the air position poor or ugly they could reduce the GOE back to 0. If she also had additional positive points, then the poor air position could make the difference between +2 vs. +1.

    If the only positive aspect were good height and distance, or there was nothing positive aside from the fact that the jump was executed successfully, and if the air position was not just not-ideal but actively bad (e.g., off axis, uncontrolled), then -1 might be appropriate, assuming no other errors.

    Other little problems, e.g., a small jump with a bad air position or a bad air position resulting from a badly skidded takeoff, might end up with -2.
     
  28. TheGirlCanSkate

    TheGirlCanSkate Active Member

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  29. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Active Member

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    I have an old VHS tape somewhere that my coach recorded herself years ago... It's Josee Chouinard landing triple axels in practice, they were amazing and clean! I need to go and find it!
     
  30. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    The quality of Tonya Harding's 3Lz, which I think was the best ever, was always better than the quality of her 3A. The 3A belonged to Midori.