Which dominant lady singles skater had the most competition while on top

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by judgejudy27, Jan 18, 2011.

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Which dominant lady champion had most competition during time on top

  1. Witt 1984-1988

    1.7%
  2. Fleming 1966-1968

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  3. Hamill 1974-1976

    0.3%
  4. Fratianne 1977-1979

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Kwan 1996-2003

    45.4%
  6. Slutskaya 2000-2005

    6.1%
  7. Kim 2007-to date

    36.2%
  8. Asada 2007-2010

    5.5%
  9. Yamaguchi 1991-1992 (or 1991-1997 extended to pros)

    1.7%
  10. Ito 1989-1992

    1.4%
  11. Lipinski 1997-1998

    0.7%
  12. other

    1.0%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Which of these dominant female skaters do you feel had the toughest competition of anyone while they reigned or were fighting for the top.
  2. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    Kwan because of how long she was competing at the top level.
  3. JerseySlore

    JerseySlore Active Member

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    Slutskaya, with Ito close second. Irina had to duke it out with Kwan and Butyrskaya in the early 2000s, and add to the mix Cohen and Arakawa (and dare I say Suguri and Sokolova to lesser extent?).

    Ito should've had minimal competition, but she was either snubbed, or failed to deliver.
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I would probably pick Kim or Asada.

    I definitely wouldnt pick Kwan. Slutskaya would have been a 5 time World Champion if Kwan hadnt existed which already says enough about that era (with all due respect to Irina). Slutskaya had tougher competition than Kwan only since she faced Kwan who is obviously better than Slutskaya who Kwan faced, LOL!

    I wouldnt pick Ito or Yamaguchi either. The great Ito was held back by the overemphasis on figures and politics early on, then by injuries and bad luck later. Yamaguchi faced Ito in her twilight years when she ran into problems, a great Harding once in a blue moon, then went pro and mostly faced easily manageable competition again.

    Witt I might consider too I suppose. The mid to late 80s was pretty competitive and diverse group, taking into account figures.
  5. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how Kim and Asada have had more competition than each other, really. Let's be honest, if they skate to their potential the only ones who could ever beat them were each other. Rochette wasn't coming close, Ando was always going to be a distant 3rd. The US ladies had no one to scare them and Russia has been non existent. Kostner can't stay on her feet until this season. That is a silly pick, IMO.
  6. JerseySlore

    JerseySlore Active Member

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    What you said about Slute/Kwan, doesn't it apply to Kim/Asada as well? Kim didn't have any legitimate threat besides Asada, and neither did Asada until she wasn't her usual dominant self.
  7. Satellitegirl

    Satellitegirl New Member

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    When someone so decidedly wins competitions and is consistent like Kwan or Kim, it's hard to say they had a lot of competition, when they were rarely beat. I'm sort of not sure how to even answer the question lol.

    I chose Witt.
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The same is true of all the others.

    Who was going to eat Kwan or Slutskaya if they skated close to their potential? Nobody. Hughes? LOL! Butyrskaya? even bigger LOL! Cohen? Yeah right. Arakawa? Again definitely no. I guess Tara Lipinski is the only one but she retired at 15 so hardly was there.

    Yamaguchi or Ito if they skated close to their potential? Maybe Harding once in a blue moon, that is it.

    Witt or Thomas if they skated close to their potential? Given the restriction with figures and politiks again nobody.


    I consider Ando (who I dont even like much) and Rochette to be better skaters than Butyrskaya, Hughes, Cohen, Kerrigan, the usual Harding. That is why I picked one of Kim or Asada.
  9. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what the 1999 World podium would've been like if MK had two perfect skates vs. Butyrskaya, who had two perferct skates of her own at won that year. Would the judges have awarded the gold to Maria anyway just to get a new face on top of the podium?
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think the only year Butyrskaya could have beaten a clean Kwan was the 2000 Worlds, and that is only since she was the defending Champion and had her best short program ever there. Maybe in 2001 she would have had a chance too if she hadnt bombed badly at the GP final but after that she wasnt going to be a gold threat ever again.

    1999 I guess it is all speculation but I would say not a chance. She wasnt that big a name yet although she became Kwan's closest competitor in the depleted field that year. Kwan had a more difficult long program planned with 2 triple lutzes and a triple-triple. And of course Kwan was just the better skater, even if her programs that year werent the greatest she has had.

    I always looked at Maria as a bronze medal contender, I never really thought of her as a big title threat, a champion caliber skater, or part of a big rivalry at the top. Her World title was a big surprise for me and something I never imagined happening for her, although she certainly deserved it as she definitely skated the best of anyone at those Worlds.
  11. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

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    Michelle Kwan.
  12. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Michelle Kwan, of course. She managed to be World champion 5-times against so many different generations of skaters. Unbelievable !
  13. duane

    duane New Member

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    I picked Michelle. From 1996 - 2003, she faced the likes of Chen, Tara, Hughes, Cohen, Maria B, and Irina. That is some serious competition.
  14. kia_4EverOnIce

    kia_4EverOnIce New Member

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  15. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Let's break it down, then:

    Kwan competed as a dominant skater from 1996 to 2004. That took her from her first World title to her last World medal. In that time she was beaten by Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Lipinski, Arakawa and Cohen (silver to her bronze) at Worlds. Outside of Worlds we can add Hughes at the Olympics. There are probably other times Kwan lost to people but I am not going to go through every individual competition. In addition to these skaters she had competition against Bobek, Chen, Gusmeroli, Sokolova, Suguri, Kostner, etc. All fine skaters whose names we would recognize and whom had successes of their own. Kwan even beat Ito in 1996! I know, I know, Ito was well past her prime but I thought that was neat, she placed a very respectable 7th.

    The same could be said of Slutskaya, as well, although she was not as dominant for as long as Kwan was.

    I fail to see how Kim and Asada compare. Kim only ever lost when she had a serious back injury it seems or she was beaten by Asada. Asada only ever lost to Kim who seemed to be favored when going clean. Anyone else who ever beat them had to hope for meltdowns of epic proportions. There really wasn't any competition for either of them outside of each other. They could only beat themselves, really, especially with COP. Now it is different with Asada struggling but I doubt many people would consider her to be having more competition this year, she is just struggling and therefore getting beaten by a lot of people.
  16. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    The only way for Kwan to lose to people like Butyrskaya or Hughes was to bomb as well. Do you really think Kwan ever had to worry about skating cleanly and losing to people like them. :lol: I dont know about you but I never considered skaters like Butyrskaya or Hughes "rivals" to Kwan. The only skaters who could even hope to beat a Kwan skating cleanly were Lipinski and Slutskaya if they skated lights out, but in Slutskaya's case this wasnt true until atleast two years after Tara had retired. Even Ando is closer to being a threat to Kim and Asada than those two are to Kwan, if Ando wins a 2nd World title this year which could happen, it would be pretty difficult to paint her as chasms behind Kim and Asada wouldnt it (and I personally cant stand Ando's skating but still). Never mind digging even deeper and the likes of Suguri, Gusmeroli, or Sokolova who probably couldnt even beat Kwan on her worst day, they are about as much competition to Kwan as say Laura Lepisto is to Kim and Asada. And Chen beat Kwan when she was a 14 year old cute little kid, and never again, their rivalry was limited to one special event at the 96 Worlds. Likewise Shizuka was a rival to Kwan at one event- the 2004 Worlds.

    I dont have any problem with your choice of Kwan btw, but since you are the one who referred to my choice as somehow ridiculous the fact is no dominant skater has a handful of people who can beat them skating cleanly which I could be wrong but seems to be what you are looking for. Kwan most certainly did not either. Events she entered were hers to win or lose, just like they are Yu Na Kim and Mao Asada's to win or lose. As well atleast Kim and Asada had each other who are roughly equal in ability too. Lets face it, despite her success we all know Slutskaya is an inferior skater to Kwan, Kim, and Asada. Kwan is really the only all time great skater of her era, or even multiple eras (not counting Ito and her abysmal 1 event amateur comeback obviously).
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2011
  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    Sonia Henie
  18. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    But the question is "who had the most competition while on top." I still fail to see how Asada and Kim, in their very limited time on top, can be up there (yet). The question isn't "who had the HARDEST competition." Maybe just a different interpretation of the same question.
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Well that is what I was thinking. Who had the hardest competition. I probably am the one who worded it wrong.
  20. Mafke

    Mafke New Member

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    My methodology will be to compare
    who won silver behind them when they won
    who won bronze behind them (as highest finish)
    who beat them (gold only and only at and after their first wc or oc medal)
    Then I list how many world and olympic champions are in the names (here the same skater may be listed as both when applicable)

    I might have some wrong info, corrections welcome

    Witt 1984-1988
    Sumners, Kondrashova, Thomas, Ivanova, Manley
    Zayak, Chin, Cadavy, Christofics-Binder
    Zayak, Sumners, Thomas
    3 wc's, 0 oc's

    Fratianne 1977-1979
    Poetzsch
    Lurz, Driano, Watanabe
    Poetzsch
    1 wc, 1 oc

    Kwan 1996-2003
    Chen, Slutskaya, Sokolova
    Guesmeroli, Soldatova, Suguri
    Lipinski, Butyrskaya, Slutskaya, Hughes, Arakawa
    5 wc's, 3 oc's

    Slutskaya 2000-2005
    Kwan, Cohen
    Suguri, Kostner, Butyrskaya
    Kwan, Lipinski, Hughes, Arakawa
    3 wc's, 2 oc's

    Yamaguchi 1991-1992
    Harding, Kerrigan, Ito
    Chen
    -none-
    1 wc, 0 oc's

    I'd say Kwan has the most impressive set of rivals (nb Cohen isn't even on that list)
  21. BigB08822

    BigB08822 Well-Known Member

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    Well to be fair, I now see that you used the word "toughest" in your post but I only read the poll which said "most."
  22. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

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    I think Kwan, especially in her own country. There was Cohen, Lipinski, Hughes, and even Bobek sometimes. Not to mention Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, Chen..
  23. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    In case of Kwan/Slutskaya rivarly (in years when Irina became a true rival for Michelle so from 1999/2000 season) remember that Irina won MOST of the competitions where they met each other, the only few times when Kwan beat Slutskaya were Worlds 2000 and 2001 and that's too bad for Irina since she almost always beat Kwanat GP series and other competitions. Kwan was VERY lucky that her few wins happend when it really mattered. Just look at the results of competitons held between 2000 and 2002. Then Irina was ill but when she returned again she beat Kwan almost always, this time including Worlds.
  24. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Well, Rochette was a threat in the 08-09 and 09-10 seasons, I mean she beat Mao at 09 Worlds and nearly tied her score at the 10 Olympics. And I'm not sure I'd call Ando the distant 3rd because she was a jumping machine in 06-07 when she beat both Yuna and Mao to win Worlds, and then at the 09 worlds she beat Mao again. And last season Yuna beat Miki at the GPF by just a few points, and Mao didn't even qualify. And now this year Miki once again qualified for the GPF, and won the FS there, and Mao did not qualify and then at Japanese Nationals she finished ahead of a Mao skating well. Also, let's not forget Mirai who won the SP at Worlds last season.

    It is true that Yuna at her best is head and shoulders above the rest of the field, but Yuna has only skated one clean competition in her career - the 2010 Olympics. Mao from 05-07 could outjump everyone but now, even when she skates her best, skaters like Miki, Joannie (if she ever comes back), Mirai, Carolina, Laura and even Alissa and Kanako are threats.

    With less pressure and no injuries, Kim probably would have won everything in her senior career by a large margin, but she did have tons of pressure and was battling injuries for a long time, so it made things harder for her to stay on top. This combined with the fact that Asada, Rochette, and Ando have been rather inconsistent over the last few seasons mixes things up, as do the European skaters like Kostner and Lepisto who the judges will reward with huge scores if they skate well, and some Americans like Meissner in her heyday and Nagasu last season are capable of bothering Mao and Yuna from time to time.
  25. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    Not just because I was a huge fan but this one really is Kwan, IMO.

    For a 10 year period her name was always mentioned in the top 3 ladies in the World. The other two would always change but Michelle was consistently (and deservedly) always mentioned as a threat to take the title at any competition she entered. Irina would be my next choice, but she wasn't on top for as long as Kwan and didn't win as many medals. (though love and miss her, too!) After Irina I would pick Witt.

    Kim/Asada hasn't lasted as long as the 3 above quite yet, and didn't have as many peope on their level to compete with as the above 3, IMO.
  26. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor New Member

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    Kwan, as an obvious choice.

    I'd like to think Witt too, because she had her fair share of rivals especially from the American women, in the mid to late 80's. However, out of her 4 world titles the only one IMO that was most convincing was the one in '87. She was successful, but very very lucky indeed.
  27. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    Michelle held a 15-10 head-2-head record over Slutskaya in ISU competitions. I'll refer to my post from way back:
    As for my vote... there's no question :p
  28. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    Skating clean is no longer the standard under CoP. CoP has de-emphasized the clean program. Regardless of what happens in the SP, Yu Na's proven herself as a remarkable free skater. Her intangibles, CoP savvy, and reliable triple triple combo have typically allowed her a healthy 1-2 fall advantage per competition over the other skaters.

    How many of those rivals have finsihed above Yu Na in a competition, though? 2? Ando and Asada.
  29. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Joannie and Suguri finished above Yu-Na at 2006 Skate Canada (her senior debut) and Kostner also edged her at 2008 Worlds.

    Not meant to challenge the above post, but speaking of 2011 Worlds I don’t think it would be a walk in the park for Yu-Na, given that it’s being held in Tokyo. Last time she competed in Japan (2009 GPF), she barely beat Ando after the second leg of her 3-3 got downgraded, the only such downgrade she has received in her career. And even if Yu-Na skate relatively clean, I think they would keep things closer so that it wouldn’t be a foregone conclusion too early.
  30. bartek

    bartek New Member

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    I wrote about time when Irina WAS a contender and a rival for Michelle. And she started so in 1999/2000. Before, Irina wasn't really a threat for Michelle so it isn't really fair, Irina wasn't just in that level until 1999/2000 season. When we take into consideration 2000-2001 Irina usually easily beat Kwan with only exeption at Worlds. And Kwan had to pull great seven triples performance with a triple-triple to beat Slutskaya and it happend very seldom (Worlds 2000 and 2001).
  31. miki88

    miki88 New Member

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    This isn't really true. For one, the European ladies haven't ever skated to their potential. Second, Mao hasn't even skated close to her best recently so it's hard to evaluate based on this season alone.
  32. sequinsgalore

    sequinsgalore Member

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    I think perhaps Kwan or Asada... Not only did they have stiff competition internationally, but also nationally. They had to be on top at more competitions during the seasons, as they had to place top three at their Nationals with a deep field.
  33. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    Well, Kwan is younger than Slutskaya by a year. Kwan won her 1st US title the week Slutskaya won her 1st Euro title. And Kwan consistently beat Slutskaya from 1993 to 2000 (Slutskaya was 21 !). So, IMO, it's fair to compare their head-to-head, even in the younger years.
    It's not as if Kwan was 4 years older than Slutskaya. ;)
  34. FunnyBut

    FunnyBut Well-Known Member

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    Clearly Gizmo should win.:mad: She's been around twice as long as Kwan, therefore she's had twice as many competitors. And she looks like a dominant lady who spends alot of time on top :rollin:
  35. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

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    ^ No, Gizmo is the same competitor spread out twice as long, therefore only halfway up the standings :D
  36. TDsk8

    TDsk8 New Member

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    :encore: Michelle

    Does FSU plan to have a Kwan icon/smiley? :D
  37. pinky166

    pinky166 Well-Known Member

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    Mao skated quite well at Japanese Nationals and barely edged out Kanako while Miki beat both handily. To me, that says a lot. Mao is not the skater she used to be...
  38. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Miki was insanely overscored at Japanese Nationals even under inflated National scoring. Her performance was no better than her LP at the GP final which scored something like 15 points lower. Those PCS and GOE on spins, LOL! Mao suffered from only having 3 or 4 credited triples. She skated pretty well but can still do alot better.
  39. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I guess the point of the other poster is that Irina wasnt that good a skater before 2000. Which is true. Nobody considered Irina as a threat to win any major events before the 2000 Grand Prix final. She was just one of a bunch of bronze hopefuls in some major events, and definitely no threat to Michelle.

    IMO Michelle never really had more than one threat at once:

    96 season: Chen was the only threat, and she bombed all the events except Worlds.

    97 and 98 seasons: Lipinski was the only threat, and even she was no threat to a clean Michelle (except Nagano which shocked everyone).

    99 season: Michelle had no threat even though she found a way to give away Worlds that year.

    2000-2002 seasons. Irina was the only threat.

    2003 season: Michelle had no threat.

    Only starting in 2004 did Michelle for the first time have multiple threats with Arakawa, Cohen, and Slutskaya. However that is because she was by now past her prime due to age, a falling apart body with a bad hip, and a new scoring system. It didnt really have anything to do with the level of competition IMO.

    So breaking it down on average I could never vote for her as the one who had the strongest competition.
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2011
  40. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap New Member

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    Suguri's really never been competition for Yu-Na since she became dominant. This thread calls into question the competition of the most dominant while they were dominant.

    The judging in 2008 Worlds was very curious and that may give your point about 2011 Worlds more credibility. I think Here's an excerpt from Sonia Bianchetti's 2008 Worlds review..

    I think the judges have really wanted Kostner as world champion for a while now. Kostner has many great qualities about her skating, but unless she's able to overcome the sea of hurdles in her way, when all is said and done I don't think we'll look back on her as having been a major factor. I hope she's not swept in to the category of what could have been.