Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by Orable, Jun 10, 2011.
Would love to read y'alls thoughts on this controversial essay from the WSJ:
Where have they gone...have they ever existed in the first place? Sorry, feeling rather jaded today.
All of the good men are here in DC this weekend for Pride. Lots of men with college degrees, high paying jobs, fabulous condos, and obsessed with exercising/working out.
So is it weird that they're claiming this is a new phenomenon but illustrating the article with photos of movie characters from the 60s and 70s? (And earlier, in Marty's case?)
Anyway, I can't say I know *that* many 20-something men these days, but my nephews were in that age bracket until recently and neither one fits the "slacker" stereotype at all except for liking Star Wars, which I didn't realize was a character defect. It does seem like people are waiting longer to get married, but I'm not sure that's automatically a bad thing either.
This article just sounds like yet another "Man, the kids these days suck, unlike back in (some golden age that never existed in reality)" lament to me.
Anyway, I think the author's just pissed that she can't get a date. There's never been an ideal generation of anyone.
I got that sense, too. In my job, I interact regularly with college students and post-college folks and, honestly, most of the people I deal with may be a little naive/inexperienced, but they're not slackers. She sounds like a bitter Gen X'er, trying to get her digs in at the Millennials. One thing I did agree with is when she writes that young people today want their jobs to be their careers and their careers should be an extension of their self-defined personhood. I think that's a fair assessment.
Was it ever perfect? The sexes have been complaining about each other since Adam and Eve.
On a white horse:
I would MUCH RATHER have an immature, pre-adolescent man of today than all the manly-men of yesteryear combined.
Give me someone with a Star Wars poster who crushes beer can than some guy who regards women simply as possession who breeds, worth slightly less than a horse. If she thinks guys today treat women as "estrogen toys" she needs to seriously brush up on her social history. Reading a romance novel written in the 1970s would be an eye-opening experience (he kidnapped her, slapped her, raped her, but then they got married and it was TOTALLY romantic. ) for this author.
I also don't think she'd appreciate it too much if a male wrote an article called "Where have all the good females gone" that lamented a time when women dressed in skirts and dresses and slaved away at the stove, catering solely to her man's needs.
Beyond that, the whole article is badly written and muddled. I'm really not sure what point she's trying to make. Star Wars is for geeks? Men can't be men while the economy is down because having a job is the definite characteristic of adulthood? All single men are dumb and need a woman to make them smart?
I'm fairly immature myself, and I'm attracted to the geeks with star wars and lord of the rings posters. My last relationship was with someone 7 years younger than me. People can keep their Mad Men idealistic men. I'll take the geeks.
I have one...
My good man is home here with me, rubbing my feet as a I post on FSU(incidentally I am a good man as well). I guess perhaps most good men are simply attracted to other 'good men' rather than to women?
It is not just men. This has been going on for some time. Even way back when I was in college there was information out on the developing stage of development called Youth. People are sort of completing tasks of adolescence but not moving on to adulthood emotionally. Pretty common nowdays even in those who have taken on adult tasks such as job and family. They still exhibit a huge amount of immaturity through the thirties and even later.
((( Cheylana ))) I'm sorry that you're unattactive having a sad/jaded day.
But seriously ... Hang in there, girl. Here at my workplace I see many impressive twenty and thirtysomething men ... all probably straight, good-looking, able, polite, and seemingly honest. Can't vouch for their respective living situations (and I think that some are into "gaming" on their BlackBerries), but I think "they - 'good men'" are out there!
I have one!
There are good men out there. It's just that they all already have wives/girlfriends/partners.
I don't care about those materialistic things. I just need one that'll say "Yes"
The more complex life is, the longer it takes for the young to mature. There's nothing new in that.
I will say, however, that statistically speaking, young men are not doing very well overall, even with that in mind.
As someone who's been immersed in Doctor Who the last two weeks, I'll take the geeks too.
They've gone to the unemployment line. Not a lot of jobs available equals lots of guys (and gals) with not much to do.
I don't think men today are any better or worse than yesterday. There has always been and there always will be fewer good family men than good family women. Maybe it's biology, maybe it's society. But I don't see it changing anytime soon, or ever.
The only difference is, nowadays women have choices. We do not need to put up with men who are abusers, cheaters, drug addicts, alcoholics, gamblers, lazy bums, or what not. We have the choice to stay single from men who are not suitable for marriage in the first place. Because thankfully, being a single woman today is financially feasible and socially acceptable.
As much as some women lament that there are not enough good men (and I agree with them!) out there, they will be much worse off stuck with bad men. And they know it. And the men know it.
I don't want a "good man," just as I don't want to be a "good woman." I want to be a good person and to be with a good person. I hate compartmentalization and people thinking that they have to fit in a box.
Yes, that's what I've seen as well. Around here, at least.
Many men of colour would disagree.
Also, how do men "achieve" children?
I think some men in some societies today are better in some ways than they were in the past. This is because of the rights and opportunities women have claimed or been granted, which has had an impact on men's lives. In general, men today are more involved family men than the men of my father's generation (post-WWII), who were expected to provide for family while their wife took care of hearth, home and child. Men today are to a certain extent expected to be more involved in domestic affairs - or, you could look at it as 'given an opportunity to be more involved'. But women still retain the greater responsibility for domestic affairs.
And I don't think this speaks to the goodness or badness of men necessarily, just what they are taught to be and do.
There have always been good men and unfortunately the imbalance of power in gender relations is such that women have had to rely on them for support in gaining political advancement.
We in the developed western world have those choices. Many women in parts of the developing world and/or extremely patriarchal societies do not and are dependent on the goodness of men for their well-being and what freedoms are accorded to them. For example, I worked with a Saudi Arabian woman who was studying here and she said that it was only because of the support of her father that she was able to do that.
This is something I hope to see change in my lifetime.
I think that the notion that "achieving" marriage and children is a mark of maturity/adulthood is why we have lots of bad marriages and bad parents.
Speaking of times/relations that never really existed, except perhaps in Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem's heads... Not to mention, have you read any romance novels published NOW? (That is not a dig at romance writers. It's HARD to write those.) No era was perfect, but now is not really that much of an improvement (and as far as financial security, getting worse by the second for most people.) Yay, now we can chose to go broke and go into debt and have children we have to support on our own and complain about never having enough 'me' time or family time or work time or job promotion and what pigs men are (yet we seem to still want them...) Sheesh. SUCH an improvement. (Or maybe I'm just horribly cynical. I got free subscriptions to some "womens' media" for a year, and reading it makes me want to join a convent or become a Mennonite or something.)
I would like a gentleman. And they do exist. They're just hard to find. And, as aka_gerbil points out, taken. (Or gay.)
I can't get that cheesy 80's song "Holding Out For A Hero" out of my head now. 'Where have all the good men gone, and where are all the Gods?'