When was Witt at her best?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Lnt175, Apr 29, 2013.

  1. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    361
    When someone looks at Witts career its an interesting story of 2 different style of skaters from 1980-1988. In the 80-84 quad she pushed the envelope technically with double lutZ, triple toe combo, did the triple flip until the 82-83 season, and sporodically did the loop. At the 1983 worlds, she tried the most content in any LP she would skate to. After her 84 Euro and worlds victory (starting with the 84-85 season), they toned down her technical skills and gave her more sophisticated choreography. She gave an incredible performance at the 1987 worlds to beat Thomas, and resurrected her triple loop. So which Kat Witt was a better skater the 1980-1984 one or the 85-88 one?

    Personally I liked her best in 83-84. found her performances overrated in 88 (esp her last worlds win), but did like her performances in 87, and kudos to coming back at the 86 worlds LP after her disaster in the SP.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  2. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    I think 87 Worlds was her best. She combines sex appeal, theater, and technical guts in this one-woman reenactment of West Side Story.

    Witt 1987 Worlds FS
     
  3. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,520
    duplicate
     
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Her best by far IMO was at the 82 Europeans and 87 Worlds. Great balance of great athletic and technical skating, and very good and well delivered choreography. Her secondary best performances were the 85 Worlds, 86 Worlds, 83 Skate Canada, 83 Worlds, and one other Europeans (either 86 or 87). Most of her 87-88 season performances sucked and she probably didnt deserve to win any of 87 NHK (Ito should have won), 88 Olympics (Manley probably should have won but given her crap attitude in the aftermath I am so glad she didnt, and if Thomas had been given the rightful lead after the figures-short she might well have won), or 88 Worlds (Manley should have won overall again).
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  5. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    361
    And interestingly Witt may have won both the 82 and 83 worlds were it not for figures. But yes 88 worlds was a goodbye gift, but I can see a definite case for second Olympic win (How did Manley do in figures there?) About 83 SC, I believe that was the last time she did the flip in competition as well.
     
  6. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Witt was 3rd in figures and Manley was 4th. Just presuming hypothetically that was right (if I were to guess Witt probably deserved a way lower placing in figures, especialy the footage I saw, but hometown girl Manley may have been held up too for all we know). I had Witt 4th in the short and Manley 5th, both were held up to be 1st and 3rd. Anyway had they had those short program placings and Manley still beaten Witt in the long she would have beaten her overall.

    Thomas should have won the figures in Calgary, and although I had her 3rd in the short behind Ito and Kadavy, realistically factoring in reputation to some degree probably 1st in the short as well. Either way she should have had a large cushion on Witt going into the long program, and might well have been more relaxed and skater better had that been the case. Witt should have only been 3rd in the LP behind both Ito and Manley anyway, and Thomas did take 4th in the LP even with her dissapointing effort.
     
  7. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    8,487
    When was she her at her best? Her pro career. I always found her amateur programs (and packaging) rather cheap and tacky. She wasn't a particularly strong skater in terms of technique or execution either. (although there was certainly growth in these departments as displayed during the 90's pro circuit)
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
  8. iarispiralllyof

    iarispiralllyof Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    Messages:
    774
    Wow

    This is a lot better technically than her famous 88 Olympics Carmen.
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  9. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,448
    And artistically, I love the joy she has on it. She really gives everything. Great, great performance.
     
  10. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,796
    Whatever you say about her skating skills or her lack of stretch and line, Katarina Witt skated with enormous heart nearly every single time. However dreadful the vehicle she was given, you never saw her go through the motions. She had charisma by the bucket load and nearly always delivered when it mattered most. She nearly always managed to do what was needed to win, whether that was a scaled back 3 triple LP or the do or die epic 5 triple knockout like WSS in 1987 to beat Debi in the US (to my mind one of THE great performances at Worlds in history given the circumstances, not just her best). She was and always will be the definition of 1980's fabulous. :glamor:
     
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  11. skatesindreams

    skatesindreams Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2002
    Messages:
    14,092
    ITA with your assessment, floskate!

    I loved her costume, as well; even if it was a "knock-off" of Jayne Torvill's 1984 OSP dress.
     
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2013
    TheIronLady and (deleted member) like this.
  12. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,719
  13. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    Past the peak of her career, but my sentimental favorite Witt programs were her 1994 SP & LP.
     
  14. falling_dance

    falling_dance Bravo, Patrick.

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2007
    Messages:
    23,362
    Mine too.
     
  15. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,898
    Witt's 94 SP was the best SP she had ever done artistically and perhaps even better than any of her LP. If she had this type of presentation and choreography during the 80s then she would have deservedly worn the mantle as an "artistic skater", but her artistry back then was due mainly to her charisma and beauty.

    Her 87 World LP was Witt at her most fierce. I didn't care for the bat wings outfit though. On the one hand it was great that it wasn't the typical WSS outfit but bat wings?
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,803
    1987 worlds
     
  17. stevlin

    stevlin Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2008
    Messages:
    264
    She was at her best when she kept her clothes on. In Playboy magazine she posed totally naked and did a handstand. No morals.
     
    jamesy and (deleted member) like this.
  18. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    361
    Actually on second thought Manley gave it away in the SP at 88 worlds, and Thomas had another mini meltdown. Witt won figures, but Manley was superior in the long. Kind of another up and down event like Calgary was.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Manley was still 4th in the SP and deserved to be, as everyone else skated even worse. The performances of Kadavy and Trenary were pretty much a joke, and Leistner was just so so. Kondrashova and Ivanova werent even at Worlds. Remember Orser ended up 2nd in the mens SP with an even worse mistake, what a messy and fatigued Worlds that was. Witt was only 2nd in the SP to Thomas (and IMO also correct, perhaps even Ito should have beaten her too), so if Manley had won both figures and the LP, which most people thought she should have, she would have won overall. Just to note I am far from a Manley fan despite being Canadian.
     
  20. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,803
    As a pro, Katarina was charming. She was never a strong jumper, but she could express the music well, and she had a great personality on the ice. She could skate to any kind of music. I enjoyed many of her pro routines. Trying to remember a few- Evita, Lemon tree, I am what I am (88 ex), Michael Jackson 'Bad' (ex), Summer time, I am the only one, etc.
     
  21. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,032
    I will add my voice to those that hail her '87 Worlds LP as her best. Although, if you were to count figures as part of the whole package, she was not doing too well in that category.

    Regarding 1988, if Witt had been ranked where she should've been in the SP, she probably would've been pipped for the Gold by Manley
     
  22. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2005
    Messages:
    361
    Witt in figures is an interesting story. Early in her career she wasn't too great there but by 84 it seemed she had improve big time. Either that or the judges started being more lenient in her scoring. While she rarely won figures, essentially her placements in figures in both Olympics was near the top.
     
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,089
    Case Continues is one my particular favourite pro programs of Witt. I love the attitude and she really looks like she has a story to tell. It is not what she does but the way she draws you in. And the maturity. However it also helps to have a great piece of music.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbWlIjDYm68

    Competitively I thought her "Where have all the flowers gone" whilst not technically up there was a great program for her to show what she do as an artistic skater.

    I liked in an interview about the return of the Olympic champions in 94 that she came back to show that as woman she could still compete and to inspire others. Having just taken up skating at that point, I did find that quite inspiring.
     
  24. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,803
    I loved 'where have all the flowers gone'. It was a tribute to Sarajevo, where she had won her first OGM. I liked the pro version better because she did not have to worry about landing triple jumps, and she could bring out the emotion even more. Unfortunately the pro judges did not give her credit for her artistry; as we know, the pro competitions were fixed.
     
  25. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,117
    Just curious, what was Manley's attitude? Did she complain about not winning?
     
  26. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    242
    It pissed me off when she started losing to Gordeeva in alot of pro events once she went into singles. Gordeeva was an even weaker jumper and was always landing either less jumps or making more mistakes. Must have been humiliating for Witt too. I wonder how Gordeeva would have done vs Witt from 86-88 had she done singles instead of pairs. Russia may have had their first ladies singles champion much earlier.
     
  27. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2006
    Messages:
    4,282
  28. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,032
    I believe she skated a rather clean version of this LP at 93/94 German Nationals? But, she made mistakes at both '94 Euros and Olympics
     
  29. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,475
    1994 German Nationals was her cleanest LP (4 triples), but still only finished 2nd overall to Tanja Szewczenko.

    At Europeans, Katarina rotated all 4 triples (2 clean, 2 with slight errors), but Marina Kielmann had already effectively put herself out of the running for an Olympic spot after a 14th place in the technical program (Witt 9th). Interestingly, had total placements been used at 1993 Worlds, Germany would have actually had 3 spots for 1994 Olympics (Kielmann 6th, Szewczenko 7th)
     
  30. chanunderrated

    chanunderrated Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
    128
    That program was artistic wise weak though. Remember she didnt even win the LP at that event, Sumners did. How can a women who won so many LPs be at her best in an event she couldnt even win the LP.