When is an element considered completed?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Ziggy, Mar 17, 2013.

  1. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    When is a jump (or other) element considered completed?

    At Worlds there were three (at least) situations like this:

    Vartmann/Van Cleave - throw 3salchow - FS (solid landing, nice extension, then suddenly fell)
    Mae Berenic Meite - 3flip - FS (high and solid, then suddenly stumbled)
    Max Aaron - 3axel - FS (landed it very well but then crashed into the boards)

    In all of these situations, I have made a personal call that those jumps were completed by the time the mistake has taken place. That is because the landings were solid and they were held for a while, showing the skater had control, before the freak error happened.

    But that's just me. What would a referee say? Is it written in the rules somewhere?

    There is nothing stopping a skater from holding the landing for a short while and then doing a transitions hence I don't see the reason to deduct for such freak errors on the GOE.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
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  2. Tammi

    Tammi Merlot lover

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    I found this, http://www.usfsa.org/content/2012-13 Pairs GOE Charts.pdf . It talks about maintaining flow out of the jump/throw, but doesn't give a specific amount of time. I watched Max's and I agree that although he landed it fine, the run out included hitting the boards. I didn't see the others, but am guessing they would be similar (problems with maintaining that clean run out/exit).
  3. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    It seems to me that there is no answer to this in any of the ISU documents. At least I couldn't find it.

    They really need to sort out stuff like that, there's so many loopholes and uncertainties in the judging criteria.

    I have now added links in the OP, directly to the element in question, so you can see those for yourself (sadly no Meite on YT because of eville Korean copyright :drama:).
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

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    Stepping immediately out of a jump landing is considered to be poor control, so this is generally frowned upon.

    I agree though, at some point it seems like the element should be "done". I didn't realize Max got negative GOE for hitting the wall. Is it possible it was just for the jump?
  5. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

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    I think it was on German TV that I heard that a jump needed to be landed and then there needed to be about one meter of ice coverage before it would be counted as complete. I have no idea if that was a written rule, if that rule was in place before COP and isn't anymore or if it's just a general guideline. It was a long time ago and I do remember that there were situations when I wondered what you are wondering, Ziggy. Especially since that meter-mark seemed to have been passed.
  6. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I think the element should be exited with control to be considered completed. I have an issue with some of Ito's or S&Z's earlier jumps when they would land and quickly turn out or put their foot down - I would have no idea whether that was deliberate or caused by a lack of control on the landing but it definitely left an impression of sloppiness.

    In the case of Aaron at Worlds, I would consider the 3axel completed but would perhaps deduct very slightly on PCS to reflect the disruption to flow, a lack of control over the blades / body and perhaps a little on the fact that he placed a jump so close to the board.
  7. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I would definitely reduce the GOE in these cases, because sufficient control was not shown on the exit phase even if the element was technically completed. I wouldn't go all the way to -3 though, because I agree there is a difference between holding the landing for long enough to make it obvious that the fall/error was just a fluky mistake, and falling immediately with no hope of landing the jump. Skaters can step quickly into a transition but in most cases it should be obvious that it was intentional and not due to a lack of control (quite the contrary, it requires control and makes the exit more difficult so I would add to the GOE as long as it was executed decently, like Ashley Wagner's split falling leaf right out of her double axel in the SP for example).

    Personally, I would give the throw for Vartmann & Van Cleave and the 3A for Max both a -1. I wouldn't be able to just ignore a fall from the landing edge of a throw, or such an obvious disruption from the flow of the landing edge as in Max's case (plus he put his foot down as he hit the boards, so I'd consider it similar to a step out but not go to -2 overall because he did hold the landing for a bit and the first 3 phases were nice).

    You said it yourself, they are "errors," whether "freak" or not. ;)

    OTOH, I would say that Maxim Trankov's trip and fluke fall after the throw was long enough after he had thrown her (and she had landed beautifully) that I wouldn't deduct at all for that on the GOE for the throw. Nor would I if a skater landed the element and controlled the exit with flow for a sufficient distance, but then stepped forward and tripped or fell on the NEXT step.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
  8. rainbowkisses

    rainbowkisses Banned Member

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    why oh why did i misread the thread title as "When is an element considered constipated"
  9. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

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    On British Eurosport, Simon Reed asked Chris Howarth (in essence) whether there would be negative GOE on the element, and Simon said no. As it turned out, there was.

    My recollection is that she was farther away from the landing than Aaron or Vartmann when she had the mishap, but I could easily be mistaken. I would like to see the video again.

    Perhaps the rule is: "If I don't like her, I'll give her a -3 and dock her slightly on the PCS, but if I do like her, I'll just take off 0.25 off the one of the Components." :shuffle:
  10. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I love the British commentators and Chris clearly knows a lot about the sport but they aren't so savvy with the rules.
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing that. That would make sense. I didn't see it written in the current rules though. Hopefully ISU will fix that as the GOE on those elements I mentioned in the OP varied quite a bit and hopefully it was discussed during the judges' meeting.

    I think that both Vartmann and Meite had a meter out before the errors happened. Not so sure about Aaron since he was so close to the boards (eville hockey rinks! :mitchell:).

    Whilst it's great to see creative entries out of the elements, I agree with Marco that often it feels that they are used to cover up the skater not having a lot of control on the landing. Hence I would like to see that 'one meter rule' or something similar to that and require all skaters to hold the landing position for a specified time or length or both.

    That's generally how the judging works. ;)

    'If it's the first group, I'll deduct heavily but if it's a final group and the skater is a medallist, I will pretend that I didn't see that obvious mistake.' ;)

    Chris does know a little bit (he does coach after all) but not much. Simon and Nicky know hardly anything about the rules.
  12. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

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    I know how much some posters love denigrating the judges, but I don't think this is true. I remember one competition where Patrick Chan did a quad-triple with beautiful first 3 phases and then hit the wall on the landing edge and fell, and IIRC he got mostly -3s for the element. I don't have time to find the protocol or video right now.
  13. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

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    V/T shouldn't have been deducted for the fall in GOE because it was well after her landing unlike when he fell throwing Maria but his fall was (and should have) have a one point deducted and certainly should not have received a 10 in Performance/Execution.
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

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    Falls are something so obvious the judges can't ignore that even if they want to. ;)
  15. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

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    I wondered about this too because Max fell after throwing Tatiana. They got deducted -1.00 though.
  16. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the judges have a choice - doesn't the technical panel make deductions, and a fall is a fall, whether it's a click of death doing cross overs or a fall on a quad you have to get -1. Looking at the protocols I think some of the judges reduced GOE based on his fall as one gave it 0 one gave it 1 and a couple gave them 2. On the basis that the loop was very similar (bar Mx's fall) and that got 3s across the board I think it's fair to say some judges reduced the GOE.

    I'm not sure I'd agree with the 1 meter rule exactly,otherwise I think Shen & Zhao would get credit for their throw 4S at the SLA Olympics since she definitely hung on for more than a meter before going down. I'd say maybe one meter after hitting a fully extended landing position, but then some skaters purposefully put transitions directly after their jumps to increase the difficulty and might never quite hit the fully extended landing position.

    Max Aaron's LP 3A was unfortunate, but in the SP the day before he was dangerously close to doing the same thing - on the landing his blade very nearly clipped the boards again.