What would podium at 2000 Worlds have been had Irina and Maria done clean longs

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by ohashibiles, Apr 2, 2013.

What would the podium at 2000 Worlds have been had Irina and Maria done clean longs

  1. Kwan gold, Slutskaya silver, Butyrskaya bronze

    13.4%
  2. Kwan gold, Butyrskaya silver, Slutskaya bronze

    3.2%
  3. Butyrskaya gold, Slutskaya silver, Kwan bronze

    45.2%
  4. Butyrskaya gold, Kwan silver, Slutskaya bronze

    6.4%
  5. Slutskaya gold, Butyrskaya silver, Kwan bronze

    31.8%
  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    If the poll was who had the prettiest purple dress at this show and Kim and Kwan were both wearing a yellow dress for the show, Kim and/or Kwan would still win the poll, and collect almost every vote between them too.
     
  2. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

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    ITA!
     
  3. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    I think the whole pairs fiasco in SLC which ended up coming across as very pro NA and anti Russian in the end, made a lot of fan naturally side with the Russians, and against the unfair advantage the NA skaters were now seen to have. Hence the upset of Irina not winning the SP that she just arguably deserved to win, even from many NA skating fans who were offended by the very pro American propaganda spewed and shoved down their throats for a whole week in favor of Sale & Pelletier.

    I think Irina winning the short was the better situation anyway, and the one everyone in hindsight should wish had happened. Kwan would be better off not leading after the short, and Irina would be better off leading. That is the pattern of their careers. Both probably would have skated better, and the nightmare to come would never occur.


    Me too! It was a travesty all around that Games! How these judges are allowed to return is still beyond me!
     
  4. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    When things got close, scores would merely be used as placeholders back then. Why else would Bute get 5.8s and 5.9s in that short program when she had the easiest solo jump, spins, footwork and spirals among the top 3 (and not necessarily best quality)? Keep in mind she was the last skater and needed higher technical scores to win the short even with 5.9s as second mark. The majority of the judges decided to give her the top ordinal and thus had to give her a high enough first mark.

    Kwan skated first out of the top three so it would only make sense that they saved some room for the two Russians. The first mark was the tie breaker and she did have a blip, so an average of 5.6-7/5.8 was reasonable. I think the 5.8 indicated their general impression of her skating level, but not necessarily that they liked the program. The fact that Slute came out ahead overall indicated that there's something they didn't like about Kwan that night, and it couldn't have been technical since Slute also had technical issues. And it's not like Kwan would suddenly lose her soft skills. As I said, I actually think it was one of her faster skates.

    Back when she was only doing a 3toe, she had good and direct footwork preceding it. Others who did a harder triple might not. That might be one reason why she could still hold on with just the 3toe.

    When she switched over to the flip, she initially had a bit of a gap leading in.

    I get ya, but again, scores were placeholders for competitors as close as they were. Kwan skated before Slute I think and then Slute came out to do a 3lutz2loop with a program that finally fit her. I understand the decision, even though I don't agree.
     
  5. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan kept the toe in the SP in 1999 because she really only did two competitions and she probably felt she didn't need flip (which I agree, that season she didn't, but she kept bumming up the SP anyway). The plan was to change it to a flip in the 1999-2000 season right away but Kwan was having technical trouble with flip so Frank opted to have her do clean skates with a 3T while they sorted out the issues and lack of consistency in the 3F that season. On paper it looks like Kwan thought she could skate a couple seasons past 1998 with an easier SP, but in reality it was just her short 1999 season, then the GP series /nationals in 2000 during which time she had flip issues.
     
  6. rustytodd

    rustytodd New Member

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    With fair judging Maria would win with all 3 clean, but in this sport you can not always have faith in fair judging. Her gorgeous Swan Lake, the best Swan Lake in history by any skater, should be rewarded as the defending champion though.
     
  7. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Loved Kwan. Love the Beatles. Hated A Day in the Life. It was such an unflattering program for her on every level. It was such a dated-looking program that made her look old. It was the kind of "rock" program that Roz Sumners would show up to at The Great Skate Debate and place last.

    But Rush. :swoon: I loved Rush. Every minute detail in that program was breathtaking. The judges were on crack with some of the scores they gave her and were looking for any excuse to dump her. That program deserved better. Superficially, it was her best look too and the prettiest she has ever looked.
     
  8. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I disagree that the ISU invented a rivalry with Slute/Kwan. The judges liked Slute right off the bat. Here was a skater with huge jumps and terrific spins and loads of potential in the artistry department. She never developed the artistry but no one knew that she wouldn't develop it back in 1994-1996. Even while Kwan and Lipinski were killing the competition and Slute was struggling, you could tell the judges loved Slute and they would reward her whenever she delivered. She took ordinals at 97 worlds for that horrific long program of hers. And when her marks came up at 1998 worlds, the Kwan fan in me got VERY nervous. I saw a skater finally emerging from her slump and knew she'd be trouble in the future. Of course, the 99 season happened but I didn't foresee that. Slute did get back on track.
    I really doubt the judges knew in 97 or 98 that Lipinski would retire and Kwan wouldn't have a serious rival for several years so they were secretly propping up Slute for a future rivalry. Please. The judges always liked Slute and writing fairy tale stories about the ISU's motives may soothe some Kwan fans' egos but it's total BS.
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the ISU invented the Kwan-Slutskaya rivalry either. If anything the ISU would be all too happy if someone could legitimately challenge Henie's records, and if a skater that dominant over the field, willing to skate that long ever occurs they will probably get T&D like over the top support. Slutskaya simply rose to the level to compete with Kwan, and thank goodness she did for the sake of the sport. It was the perfect rivalry, the best artist who is a nice steady and consistent technical skater, vs the best technical skater who had worked very hard to improve her artistry. A Russian vs an American doesn't hurt either.

    Looking at the Kwan vs Slutskaya rivalry all the results were correct too IMO. And considering Irina won a fair share of the meetings, with only one clearly false one, she legitimately won alot of meetings over Kwan which means it was a very real and not fabricated rivalry. The only time either skater won a confrontation they shouldn't have was probably Irina at the 2001 grand prix final. However even there Irina was probably better in 2 of the 3 programs, and had the final LP been Hughes 1st (clean 7 triples and a 3-3), Kwan 2nd (6 triples, no 3-3, a fall), Slutskaya 3rd, and Irina won overall still, there probably wouldn't have been any real complaints. That Irina won that event with a 1st place in the LP for that skate with a very obvious bloc vote on that occasion (4 1sts and 3 3rds, after 7 1sts the first two programs) is where all the controversy lay. Then there are many fans who believe strongly Irina was robbed of the SLC Olympic gold by her 2nd place in the short. I personally think that is stupid when as I said earlier neither Michelle or Irina probably would have done the same skates had Irina won the short, but many still believe that.

    Had Slutskaya not slumped in 97, Tara's rise would probably have never happened, or atleast been delayed. Even in late 96 when she had already begun to struggle, Slutskaya was for then still regularly beating rising Tara. That is when she had absolutely terrible artistry at that point, and much worse than young Tara, but the power of her jumps, spins, and overall skating really stood out next to Tara, and would have made it very hard for Tara to rise up against that and the complete package and ultimate artist Michelle had both (Irina moreso) not fallen well off course.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2014
  10. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I agree with every Kwan/Slutskaya meet up that I can remember off-hand except the dastardly 2001 Grand Prix final. I go insane every time I watch those two skaters back to back in that event. That was a royal shame for 6.0 figure skating judging.

    That said, I think that Irina's marks have been inflated at one time or another when they did not reflect sloppy performances (jump-wise) or lack of artistry. Fortunately, the right skater came ahead almost always (but not without some shocking ordinals by individual judges).
     
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Yes pretty much. Irina's scores for her LP at the 2000 worlds were funny after a big pop open, rearranging and disregarding choreography to abruptly put in a jump, only 6 triples, no triple-triple, and a borderline 2 footed 2nd lutz. Even though she won only 2 judges from Kwan, 5 or 6 of the judges gave her a higher technical mark (two judges had her .2 ahead on the tech. mark but still put her behind) and 3 judges (1 that still voted for Kwan) gave her a higher artistic mark, so the only 2 1st place ordinals was deceiving. Her marks should have been closer to Maria's than Michelle's for that particular skate. Yet the final result still ended up right.

    I can only imagine Kwan fans reaction had Irina won gold via winning the LP with that skate over one of Michelle's best performances ever. Which she was actually very close to doing, the Japanese judge giving Irina 5.7 instead of 5.6 for technical merit, two judges dropping to 5.7 instead of 5.6 for presentation and voila she actually has it.
     
  12. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I was specifically thinking about these 2000 worlds when talking about score inflation and peculiar ordinals. It's actually extremely scary how close Irina was to winning.
     
  13. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    I also don't think the ISU invented the rivalry but I do think the RUS Fed had a lot to do with it.
     
  14. David21

    David21 Well-Known Member

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    Funny that you mention that...people told me before that Slutskaya also two-footed her lutz in her LP in SLC.
    IMO there was no lutz in either program that was even close to being two-footed.

    And speaking about Worlds 2000...the 7:2 split in favour of Kwan and Slutskaya getting much higher marks than Butyrskaya who didn't have a clean salchow or a clean jump combo (while Slutskaya had 6 clean triples including two lutzes and two difficult combinations) made A LOT OF sense.
     
  15. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

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    OK time to make one thing clear. I was never stating that I felt the ISU invented the Kwan-Slutskaya rivalry. I was saying many Kwan fans seem to keep repeating that mantra over and over. I don't buy it for a moment and think it is refusal of some to accept someone was allowed to challenge their goddess, but that is what many Kwan fans insist on. However what I am finding funny is in the poll where Kwan is currently winning for toughest competition ever (in itself a comical concept) many of the same people who I have seen insist the ISU or politics invented Slutskaya as a rival for Kwan when she shouldn't have been one at all, are the same one voting for Kwan as having the "toughest" competition ever. How f-ed up is that. If Kwan's competition was so incredibly weak according to her fans, that the ISU had to invent a rival for her, then that means she had the weakest competition of anyone in the last 40 years probably, not the toughest. To insist the ISU had to invent a rival for her, since her competition were all unworthy, and then have the gall to pick her as having the toughest competition ever at the same time is just so :lol:

    Although when you see every topic or poll of a Kwan era skater and a skater of say today like Suguri vs Rochette, Kostner vs Slutskaya, and the Kwan era skater gets killed each time is proof enough even Kwan fans all fully know it is BS saying she had the toughest competition, and that in fact they really believe (correctly for the most part) the top skaters of the Kwan era other than Kwan herself were less talented than those of most other eras. It is just Kwan fanaticsm at its finest. :lol:

    I am also a Michelle Kwan fan btw, just a reasonable one, which puts her in a very small category. Just as I would be if I were a Yu Na Kim (but I am not anyway, but an objective one of hers would also fall into a small minority).
     
  16. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    I have been posting here for like 9 years and i have never seen anyone ever say the Kwan/Slutskaya rivalry was invented. I also posted on MKF way back in the day, and never saw anyone say that.

    I saw it here recently for the first time in the "who had the most difficult rivals" thread....
     
  17. Fiero425

    Fiero425 Member

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    Both took titles from the other they may not have deserved regardless! Nothing more funny than Irina's GPF win with just 3 triples! All the Kwan supporters backstage could do was smirk and give quizzical looks to one another! lol!
     
  18. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

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    I have seen it mentioned here many times. I was a lurker before I began posting a year and half ago, and I saw it mentioned in too many threads to count. I should have kept a collection of the people I could quote saying this just for a moment like now.
     
  19. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    I completely agree! Rush was extremely underrated! I loved the music cuts, loved Michelle's hair, loved her costuming (black and purple always look flattering on her!), and loved how her choreography interpreted the music. Even though her performance to East of Eden was phenomenal at Nationals in 2001, I was still sad that Rush never saw the spotlights at Nationals and Worlds . . . it's an injustice to an incredible program!
     
  20. burtwonderstone

    burtwonderstone New Member

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    I am pretty sure what Irina had planned was: triple lutz-double loop, triple salchow-triple loop, triple lutz, triple loop, triple flip, triple toe. The triple salchow you refer to was only thrown in unplanned after turning the planned triple salchow-triple loop into a double salchow. She was probably hoping to do the triple salchow-triple loop, but ended up with only a triple-double. Had she done the triple salchow-triple loop or even just the triple-double the first time, no jump would have been that done at that point.

    I cant see Irina losing if she even did a 7th triple, let alone a triple-triple of any sort. I voted for Maria in the poll since I hate Irina and her skating but a clean Irina wins over both. Irina's dress that year was also one of her nicest ever, but she could take some tips from Witt on how to skate a real Carmen. She might have improved her artistry but she didn't interpret the character of Carmen whatsoever. It is obvious she has never been to a Carmen Opera, or seen books on film on the character which she should have done before selecting that as her program. Had she skated better the judges wouldn't have cared though.