What would Olympic podiums from 92-2014 been if everyone skated cleanly

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanoverrated, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. VolosozharGOAT

    VolosozharGOAT Member

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    Only doing ones I remember or care about.

    2014 pairs

    Gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy. Lets be real. The judges would never place a clean S&S behind V&T. At the 2011 grand prix final Savchenko & Szolkowy even made mistakes and beat a totally clean Volsozhar & Trankov, one of the worst results in history.

    Silver- Volosozhar & Trankov.

    Bronze- Duhamel & Radford

    Mens 2014

    Gold- Fernandez

    Silver- Hanyu

    Bronze- Chan


    Ladies 2006

    Gold- Slutskaya or Arakawa, depending how many/or any triples-triples each did and which ones.

    Bronze- Cohen, could even possibly move up if neither Slutskaya or Arakawa try a 3-3


    Ladies 2002

    Gold- Slutskaya

    Silver- Kwan

    Bronze- Butyrskaya- her best skating would beat even what Hughes did to win gold.


    1998 ladies

    Gold- Lipinski

    Silver- Kwan

    Bronze- Butyrskaya


    1992 ladies

    Gold- Ito if she does 2 triple axels

    Silver- Harding, gold if Ito does only 1 triple axel

    Bronze- Yamaguchi, silver if Ito does only 1 triple axel, gold if Harding gets low artistic marks


    2006 pairs

    Gold- Totmianina & Marinin

    Silver- Zhangs if they do quad throw in clean skate

    Bronze- Shen & Zhao, silver if they go clean and Zhangs clean skate has no quad throw


    1994 men

    Gold- Petrenko

    Silver- Browning

    Bronze- Davis or Stojko or Boitano (not Urmanov for sure)


    1994 dance

    Gold- Usova & Zhulin- they stumbled and slowed down in FD to lose gold

    Silver- Torvill & Dean- with no illegal moves

    Bronze- Grischuk & Platov


    1994 pairs

    Gold- Mistkutienok & Dmitriev- they had a stumble in both programs to lose gold

    Silver- Gordeeva & Grinkov

    Bronze- Brasseur & Eisler
     
  2. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    I don't remember M/D having a stumble in 1994.
     
  3. gk_891

    gk_891 Active Member

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    Artur had a small trip in the footwork sequence in the last segment. The program was skated with so much reckless abandon that many didn't notice!
     
  4. handomi

    handomi New Member

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    I don't know how you came to that : )

    If everyone would skate clean then:

    1. Hanyu
    2. Chan
    3. Fernandez
     
  5. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't disagree more. What combo was Slutskaya doing in practices before she watered down her program after Kwan bombed? Regardless, I don't see the beloved Kwan skating cleanly in her home country and losing the gold medal. It wouldn't have happened. The short program proved that. Likewise, Butyrskaya had no shot at winning a medal in the US if other Americans skated cleanly too. The short proved that also.
     
  6. VolosozharGOAT

    VolosozharGOAT Member

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    I guess we will never know for sure, but my thinking is this. In the 2000-2002 period the indications from the judges were if both skated cleanly Slutskaya would win. Surely you dont dispute that. Anytime both were imperfect Slutskaya won, even the times she made more mistakes and landed less jumps. The only times Kwan could ever beat Slutskaya that period is when she skated some of her best performances ever, with more technical content than ever, and Slutskaya made mistakes on top of that. So would that have magically changed just because the Olympics were in the U.S? I guess it is possible, but I dont give the U.S that much credit to have that kind of influence. They arent Russia and their powerhouse federation, the U.S by contrast has a weak federation and is unable to influence results by home court advantage or things like that. The other factor is was Kwan planning the triple toe-triple toe or realistically going to do it in a clean skate. If Irina did a clean skate with a triple loop combination, Kwan for sure would need the triple toe-triple toe to have any hope of winning, even if there was this distinct U.S home court advantage that I dont believe the weak U.S federation was capable of.

    As for my picking Fernandez for gold if all were clean in Sochi I knew many would disagree on that one. However looking over his protocal sheet he had 6 counted mistakes against his score in the long program and still nearly got the bronze. His planned base value is higher than both Hanyu and Chan wasnt it. And combine that he gets very good GOE when he completes things cleanly, and his PCS are generous even for programs with mistakes, and I think he could do it. It is hard to know though, as Fernandez has never skated close to a clean competition before. I am sure he would atleast get the bronze in that case though, and he didnt even need to be clean to get the bronze in Sochi either.

    I thought Miskutienok & Dmitriev had a big trip in their footwork in the long program and they had a wobble on something else in the short which Scott Hamilton was talking about to justify their 2nd place in the short.

    PS- short programs also dont mean anything much. Some judges had Sebeysten ahead of clean Hughes in the short, but that never would have happened in the long. Cohen was put ahead by every judge over clean Hughes in the short, and even by 3 judges over clean Slutskaya, but neither of those things would have ever happened in the long even had all 3 been clean. Lipinski lost almost every judge to Kwan in the Nagano short despite going clean, and some of the same judges who had her .4 behind put her above a clean Kwan in the long. Then there in Sochi where V&T beat a clean S&S by 5 points in the short, but I am sure we all would agree the judges were still giving the insanely overrated S&S the win over V&T if both were clean like they always favor S&S unless they bomb, which would mean winning the LP by atleast 5 points, the total reverse of the short.
     
  7. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

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    I don't dispute that. A clean Slute beat a clean Kwan from 2000ish to 2001. But then the short program in SLC happened and all bets were off....for that competition only. That Kwan beat her in the short with that two-footed jump was ridiculous. Surely Slute knew the fix was in after that and an American would have to meltdown for her to have a chance to win.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2014
  8. shirokjj

    shirokjj New Member

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    Hanyu had the highest planned BV. As for GOE, Fernandez would be behind Hanyu and Chan even if he is totally clean.

    Rankings in terms of planned BV: Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez
    Ranking in terms of best GOE when clean: Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez
    Ranking in terms of PCS when clean: Chan, Hanyu, Fernandez

    So the podium would be: Hanyu, Chan, Fernandez
     
  9. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I am pretty sure Fernandez had atleast a higher potential base value than Chan. He was the only guy doing 3 quads after all. Still wouldnt have been enough to beat Chan if both were clean though.
     
  10. handomi

    handomi New Member

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    Yes, Fernandez had higher BV than Chan in his planned content, but not enough to overtake Patrick's TES+PCS
     
  11. dorianhotel

    dorianhotel Active Member

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    Ladies 2002 Gold- Slutskaya, Silver- Kwan, Bronze- Cohen. Too much is made about Kwan's short program win. I thought Irina's short program in SLC was only about 60% as good as her shorts at the GPF, worlds, Goodwill Games, and she had 2 obvious errors for me- a bad split second super travel in her last combo spin, and a major break in steps before the triple flip. She still lost the short by only .1 and would have easily won it with any of her much better shorts that season. Kwan's triple flip btw was NOT two footed, definitely not. It might have been a quarter turn cheated, but that was no deduction back then. I thought overall it was her best short program of the season despite the mediocre but still clean triple flip. I thought Irina was super gifted for her terrible LP which even if she didnt fall was IMO overall further from her best than Kwan's who did fall was from hers, especialy if you believe Irina would have done the tougher jumps of the two.

    Ladies 2006 Gold- Slutskaya, Silver- Shiz, Bronze- Cohen Slutskaya was the sentimental favorite in her last Olympics, and in Europe. She was never losing if she skated clean (by clean I mean without the really shaky landings she had on a few jumps and missed levels, besides the obvious mistakes) even if Shizuka and Cohen were sublime. Shizuka's 3-3s would carry her past Cohen and even if they didnt her jump GOE would do the trick.

    Men 2010 Gold- Lambiel, Takahashi, or Abbott, Silver- Lambiel, Takahashi, Abbott, or Chan, Bronze- Lambiel, Takahashi, Abbott, Chan, or Joubert. As you can see not really sure how this would go. Neither Lysacek or Plushenko would even medal though.

    Men 2014 Gold- Hanyu, Silver- Fernandez, Bronze- Chan

    Pairs 2010 Gold- Savchenko & Szolkowy, Silver- Kavaguti & Smirnov, Bronze- Shen & Zhao

    Pairs 2006 Gold- Totmianina & Marinin, Silver- Shen & Zhao, Bronze- Zhangs

    Ladies 1994 Gold- Baiul or Sato, Silver- Baiul, Sato, Kerrigan, or Bonaly, Bronze- Baiul, Sato, Kerrigan, Bonaly, or Chouinard. Another one I am not sure of. Dont think Chen would have ever medalled with the others skating cleanly though since the judges always underrated her then.

    Ladies 1998 Gold- Lipinski, Silver- Kwan, Bronze- Butyrskaya
     
  12. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    I didnt see a two footed jump in Kwan's short program. An American would have to have a meltdown for Irina to have a chance to win? Arent you exagerrating a bit. Michelle had one fall and was otherwise perfect, Sarah skated the performance of her life, Sasha had one fall and was otherwise clean, and Irina with a poor skate and only 4 clean triples still beat Michelle, easily beat Sasha, and was .1 from beating Hughes who skated out of her mind.

    I do agree the judging was pro U.S in the ladies event in SLC though. All 3 of Kwan, Cohen, and Hughes were overmarked in the short program, and to a lesser degree the long program. Nobody even seems to care though, so I guess it is ok for Americans to do that kind of thing, but not Russians, Japanese, or Canadians at theirs. ;)
     
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    No 2-foot landing for Kwan in 2002 Olympics SP... The 3Flip was questionable in term of rotation, but not 2-footed.
    Anyway, I'm surprised so many people think Slutskaya would have won in 2002 if everyone goes clean, since she was clean in the SP and didn't win. Kwan was clearly favored in SLC. Plus, with a clean skate from Kwan, I'm fairly sure judges wouldn't have done the same as Nagano again. Kwan skating cleanly and losing. ;)
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  14. ripingroar37

    ripingroar37 Member

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    On the contrary. The judges loved the overrated and overscored Irina Slutskaya much more than they ever liked Tara who wasnt even a judges favorite like Michelle, Irina, Oksana, and ohters and had to work for every mark she ever got. If it wasnt for her nerves in big events Irina probably would have won about 8 world or Olympic events. So if they were willing to put even Tara who they dont like that much above a clean Michelle, they certainly would have been willing to put Irina who they loved and badly wanted to give more big titles than she won above a clean Michelle if she herself skated really well. Michelle also would have needed her 3 toe-3 toe to even have the possability to beat a clean Irina, and she wasnt even planning to do it.

    I agree with what some others have mentioned. Had Irina and Michelle both skated clean Irina would have won any other time in 2000-2002, so why would 2002 Olympics be any different. Anyway both skated bad and Irina again finished ahead. So if both skated well probably the same result.

    What surprises me more is there are even a few people who have Irina not winning the 2006 Olympics if everyone skates cleanly. 2002 Olympics I could atleast see some thinking not, although I totally disagree, but 2006 LOL! There was no way Irina was skating cleanly and not winning the 2006 Olympics, unless she did a program with no 3-3 attempts at all and Shizuka did a program with two of them; and considering both were equally iffy to include any at all, that scenario is not a likely one. Irina had dominated the last year and half, was the sentimental favorite of everyone after her illness and it being her last olympics, Turin was always hers to lose. That they gave her not only the bronze overall but 3rd place in the LP for that lame ass performace with a fall, doubled major triple, a couple other bad landings, missed levels, and a slow and heavy performance she gave up on in the final minute plus after the major mistakes, says enough to what would have happened had she skated well.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2014
  15. irinayunafanatc

    irinayunafanatc Member

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    Irina was not overscored. She never won a title or medal she didn't deserve. I do agree with the Kwan supporters in this case that the huge gift Kwan got in the short program of Salt Lake City means the judges were probably planning to give her the gold if she was clean, whether Irina outskated her or not. Although if Kwan skated clean without the triple toe-triple and Irina skated clean with the two triple-triples combos she had planned the judges would have had no choice but to give clean Irina the gold over clean Michelle, but that is assuming the most and least each skater might have attempted.

    The 2002 and 2006 Olympics both should have been Irina's to lose since every other competition from 2000-2002 and 2005-2006 was Irina's to win or lose, and she was the best skater in the world all those years. However it seems for those Olympics the judges disrescpectfully ignored Irina's status of those years and favored Kwan in 2002 and Shizuka in 2006 over her, all things equal. Just like the short program in 2002 proved Michelle was the judges favorite, the short program in 2006 proved Shizuka had the gold in the bag if she landed 5 or 6 triples, even if Sasha or Irina cleanly did 7 or 6, unless Irina pulled her triple-triples out and Shizuka didn't. It shouldn't have been that way, especialy in 2006. Irina had been by far the best women skater the last 2 years going into Turin, and had dominated most of her competition with Kwan heading into SLC, but the judges ignored this. Shizuka didn't even make the grand prix final in 2006, the judges should feel ashamed anointing her the one to beat over Irina and Sasha. Don't get me wrong, she deserved the gold with how everyone skated, but the competition was made Shizuka's to lose, not Irina's to lose, and that was totally wrong. It was supposed to be Irina's to lose all along.
     
  16. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

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    :confused: Irina edged Shizuka in the SP though when both skated clean at the 2006 Olympics. It was Sasha whom the judges ranked ahead of Irina in the SP even though some of Cohen's jumps were eeked out, especially that relatively poor quality 2Axel, and the obviously flutzed 3Lutz. I remember at the time someone posted a skating protocol breakdown of GOE awarded for jump execution and Sasha was way down low on every judges' scorecard when it came to jump quality in the SP on all the jump elements, even though she did win that phase by a small margin. Cohen was never going to skate clean in the LP though, so it was a moot point. Arakawa had arrived in Italy like gangbusters in practices though landing 3Salchow+3toe+3loop(UR) combinations cleanly. Even though she was ranked 9th at the pre-Olympic Worlds, the judges were going to notice her nailing such a difficult jump pass. It was a great sadness to see what transpired for Slutskaya in the Torino LP. Her illness had overcome her by that point. :(
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2014
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Shizuka's short program was a good 5 points atleast worse than Irina and Sasha's. Yeah it was clean but it was a pretty ordinary skate with mostly average elements, and a blah program skated with no excitement. I was absolutely floored when she ended up almost tied. Apparently some others were too as you can tell by the reaction here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRxOVel6Ifg

    I am happy she won, but boy did she ever get a gift in the short program. She got one when she won the 2004 worlds too, even bigger than 2006, as her short in 2006 was atleast much better than her 2004 short and the 2004 worlds shorts program competition was even more spectacular by more skaters. Atleast in 2006 she ended up in the right place where in 2004 many felt she should have been 5th-7th and was 2nd, but of course in 2006 points matter not placements, and she got a big help when it came to the relative points.
     
  18. ladygagafan

    ladygagafan Member

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    Ladies

    1992- Kristi wins, Midori second, Tonya third
    1994- Yuka wins, Lu second, Surya third
    1998- Tara wins, Michelle second, Maria third
    2002- Irina wins, Michelle second, Maria third
    2006- Irina wins, Shizuka second, Sasha third
    2010- Yu Na wins, Mao second, Joannie third
    2014- Adelina wins, Yu Na second, Mao or Julia third

    Those are the placements if everyone skates perfectly

    1992- Victor wins, Kurt second, Petr third
    1994- Viktor wins, Kurt second, Scott third
    1998- Ilia wins, Todd second, Alexei third
    2002- Evgeny wins, Alexei second, Tim third
    2006- Evgeny wins, Stephane second, Jeff third
    2010- Brian wins, Stephane second, Daisuke third
    2014- Hanyu wins, Fernandez second, Patrick third

    Again with everyone perfect these are placements and medals.
     
  19. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

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    Irina would win both the 2002 and 2006 Olympics skating cleanly.
    Plushenko would win all of the 2002, 2006, and 2010 Olympic skating cleanly.
    Mao would win both the 2010 and 2014 Olympic skating cleanly.
    Browning would win both the 92 and 94 Olympics skating cleanly.
     
  20. sylvestercat

    sylvestercat Member

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    Looking over this thread I found this the funniest part since while it could all be true, it makes the sport sound more like a soap opera with writers and editors than an actual sport. Deciding to give someone the gold if they perform well due to it making the most beautiful narrative, giving someone else a consolation prize before AND after that. B&K being thrown the loop at the GPF only to find reality hit in SLC.