What would Olympic podiums from 92-2014 been if everyone skated cleanly

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanoverrated, Aug 27, 2013.

  1. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

    50
    0
    6
    Lambiel lost bronze to Takahashi by less than a point even with about 6 mistakes, and gold by only about 10 points. Skating cleanly not only would he have crushed Takahashi, but would have easily won gold over Lysacek and Plushenko too.
     
  2. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    1,592
    155
    0
    While I agree that Lambiel would've won if skating clean (I thought Euros tipped the hand there), it's not as if Takahashi was clean in Vancouver either. A clean Takahashi would've easily scored 10-15 points higher.
     
  3. itoaxel

    itoaxel Member

    50
    0
    6
    I know. I do think Lambiel made many more worth of mistakes than Takahashi though. Takahashi only had his fall on an underrotated quad and one other UR call. Lambiel had numerous mistakes in both programs, especialy the long. I think if both skated cleanly Lambiel would be gold and Takahashi silver.

    Either way that doesnt matter since the post I posted after I thought meant was saying even if Lambiel skated cleanly and the rest of the event was skated exactly as it is he would have still been 4th behind Takahashi and that is proposterous. I might have been misinterpreting though.
     
  4. Triple Axel

    Triple Axel New Member

    169
    13
    0
    Your Vancouver Men's was NOT FAIR!! I adore Stephane Lambiel, but the OWG was not the first time he's had trouble with the triple axel!! It has NEVER been his friend, so skating it cleanly was out of the question. It isn't like he had one bad skate with it. So this poll is 'what if everyone skated perfectly. Not to the best of THEIR abilities. Okay, in THAT case, everyone wins!! And I do NOT agree that Dai, although I love him, would have ever beat a clean Plushenko. I think if we are getting rid of errors, we should also reslove injuiries. Hands down, uninjured, Plausheko walks with another OGM.
     
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Lambiel wasnt even attempting the triple axel. He didnt even need it to win over quadless Evan either however.

    As for Takahashi not beating a clean Plushenko, keep dreaming. Lysacek even beat a clean Plushenko. Takahashi with a quad and much better artistry than both would have cakewalked to the Vancouver gold. His PCS even with the big fall and other mistakes was higher than Lysacek and Plushenko, and his base value with a clean skate was higher. A judge was interviewed after the event and stated had Takahashi skated cleanly he definitely would have won in Vancouver as he was everything the judges were looking for in a mens champion.

    There are probably tons of guys who would have beaten Lysacek and Plushenko in Vancouver had they skated cleanly, not just Lambiel and Takahashi. Some Plushenko fans seem to be living in a time warp and thinking 2010 was still 2006, which in the aftermath of the actual result (which I disagreed with in Evan winning btw, but that is aside the point) is quite unbelievable. Either way the fact a quadless Lysacek won the gold, when even Lysacek with quads is easily beatable by a horde of potentially superior skaters (Lambiel, Takahashi, Chan, Abbott at this best, a few others) proves a ton of guys could have won the gold in Vancouver skating cleanly. Lambiel and Takahahi most likely the top 2 in either order in that case however.
     
  6. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28


    Those are pretty good. Just a couple changes to yours I made for myself in bold.

    Slutskaya would have won gold at the 2002 Olympics if everyone skated cleanly, not Kwan. Kwan would have taken silver. Anyone who followed the early 2000s realized that the only times Kwan could beat Irina are when she was clean and Irina made mistakes. If they made comparable mistakes or sometimes if Irina had more, Irina always came out ahead. One short program result doesnt change that. The 98 Olympic ladies event should already be enough proof not too read too much into short program results, and Kwan won the short program very easily in 98 as opposed to barely winning it and controversially so in 2002. Irina skated last, no matter how well Kwan skated her marks would have peaked at 5.7s and 5.8s technically and 5.8s and 5.9s in presentation as they would have had to save room for Irina, just like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds. Irina would have had every opportunity to beat that regardless, whether she would have delivered or not is another matter.

    I have no idea what the 94 ladies results would have been if everyone skated cleanly. The one thing I am pretty sure of though is Chen wouldnt have even medalled, let alone won, so I simply bumped her off completely and moved everyone else you posted up a spot, unable to really decide on a order. It could have been any combination of Sato, Bonaly, Baiul, Kerrigan, and maybe (but less likely) Josee in that case, but probably Baiul would never be pushed off the podium in that case being the only certainty.

    Stojko did skate cleanly at the 98 Olympics but chose to not attempt his quad. Skating cleanly without a quad as he did he would have lost silver to Eldredge skating cleanly, and also been pushed right off the podium by young Yagudin skating cleanly with a quad. Candelero beat him in the free program which shows how he was a bit lucky to still salvage silver.

    Honda had 2 quads planned in his 2002 Olympic LP. Had he even done one he beats Goebel, no question.

    At the 94 Olympics Stojko did skate cleanly and did lose to Urmanov, so if one assumes Petrenko and Browning go 1-2 just like 92 going clean, then it is pretty certain Stojko doesnt medal if everyone else skated cleanly too.
     
  7. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    Great effort, museksk8r.

    Though, I would put Kwan ahead of Lipinski in 1998 and Slutskaya in 2002- skating with attack, speed and a well-landed 3lip would've been enough for Kwan to get the Gold in 1998. It also depends on what you mean by clean for Slutskaya in 2002; two 3-3s? Probably, but I don't think that 2 well-rotated 3-3s were within Slutskaya's grasp in 2002. They would be on the road to Torino, when she fixed her jumps which were getting more scrutiny under CoP

    IDK about 2006 pairs - a healthy S/Z would've been a huge obstacle to T/M, because they underwent their artistic transformation in 2003 and T/M were not necessarily the most aesthetically pleasing Russian / Soviet Pair
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  8. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28
    Irina would not have needed two different 3-3s to beat a clean Kwan. What kind of craziness is that. I could see someone thinking Irina needed one clean 3-3 to beat a clean Michelle, although I would totally disagree even then, but thinking she needed two, ROTFL!!! Tara beat a clean Kwan in 98 with only one 3-3 and Irina >>>>>>>>>>>> Tara as far as who they preferred in competition with Michelle goes. Lets look at some of the Kwan vs Slutskaya events from 2000 to 2002:

    2000 Grand Prix Final- Irina skates amazing. Michelle skates so so. Irina wins easily with a 6.0 for technical merit, and almost all 5.9s on both marks. Not even really significant as this was pretty straightforward except when the reverse happens as later examples will show Michelle doesnt win as easily.

    2000 Worlds- Michelle skating her best performance ever probably with amazing speed, 7 triples, a clean 3-3 combo wins in a split decision over Slutskaya with only 6 triples (one maybe two footed), a big mistake, no 3-3, and Irina had higher technical marks overall and higher presentation marks from some of the judges. It was very clear by the scores Irina would have won for sure simply skating a clean 7 triple program with no rearrangements, and she wouldnt even had to include the triple-triple toe Kwan did or any type of triple-triple either (Irina always did a harder one than that when she attempted one anyway).

    2001 Grand Prix final- Both skate sort of sort so so with only 5 or 6 clean triples. Irina wins easily, losing only 1 judge.

    2000 Skate Canada- Both skate kind of so so with only 5 or 6 clean triples. Irina wins easily, losing only 1 judge.

    2001 Worlds- Michelle's skates an amazing performance, on par with her 2000 Worlds performance. Irina skates a sloppy program with one clear mistake, a step out of a jump, her own triple-triple is badly underrotated and program not even credited by the judges, and several other shaky moments/landings. Still a split decision, and Irina still has the higher technical mark.

    2002 Grand Prix final- Irina with 4 triples in both her long programs wins over Michelle who lands 5 and 6 respectively.

    2002 Worlds- Both Irina and Michelle skate cleanly in the final free skate with 6 triples and Irina wins that phase with slightly higher technical scores and comparable or higher presentation scores.

    It is clear it is Michelle who had to be exceptional and Irina less than so for Michelle to win their confrontations in this rivalry, not vice versa, or not like it was in the reverse in the Tara vs Michelle rivalry. So how one concludes from that Irina needs two 3-3s, which Tara who would have never beaten Michelle or even been competitive with her in the above scenarios of other Irina vs Michelle competitions, didnt even need in 98, I have no idea whatsoever. Not to be rude but what are you smoking exactly.

    Based on the above examples of how they were scored against each other in the early 2000s the only way I see Kwan having beat a clean Irina at all is if Michelle skated like the 2000 and 2001 Worlds lights out with a 3-3 and all and Irina skated super cautious with only 5 or 6 triples and no 3-3, basically something just a bit better than her Olympic performance (now already enough to win over Hughes) and on par or a bit less than her Worlds performance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2013
  9. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28
    As for the 2006 pairs events, had Shen & Zhao been at their absolute best it probably would have been a virtual tie with Totmianina & Marinin. Their scores from the 2005 GPF and T&M's from Turin are virtually the same. As it was Shen & Zhao coming off an injury wouldnt have been at that level of skating even had they gone "clean". By the scores from Turin it seem Shen & Zhao were unlikely to even beat the Zhangs for the silver if both went clean, especialy if the Zhangs landed their quad throw. The Chinese fed. were probably wisely backing the Zhangs as their #1 for Turin with S&Z in an uncertain state, and that would have played a part in the scores even had they skated unexpectedly cleanly. T&M had the full weight of a strong Russian fed. behind them and with S&Z not even the undisputed Chinese #1 at that point, this would have ended any battle at that particular competition.
     
  10. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28

    The people saying Lambiel going clean wins in 2006 over clean Plushenko must be playing a game of "I am the judge" and putting how they would have had it. There is no way the judges were going that way, especialy with Lambiel not planning a triple axel in either program at the Turin Olympics, and wasting his spinning ability by mostly having only having level 2 spins. Lambiel was the best spinner in the World at the time and should have been gaining the most points in spins. He didnt though since he chose some level 2 and 1 spins, and some of his competitors were doing 3 or 4. With all that I wonder if he would have even won the silver if everyone had skated great in Turin, or if he could have been threatened even by clean Buttle or clean Joubert. Unless he did do a triple axel, then the silver would be a lock but I dont think he ever meant to do one there.
     
  11. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28
    Harding should be the winner in 92 if everyone skated cleanly. She had the perfect combination, Kristi's artistry and Midori's great jumping ability. She also had better spins and speed than both. Probably the judges would have gone with Kristi and Midori gold and silver in either order and Harding only bronze had they all been clean due to marking Tonya down for her trailer trash lifestyle. Not right but it is what they would have done. With how Kristi, Midori, Nancy, Josee, and everyone did skate in Albertville they would have had to give Tonya gold if she skated like 91 Nationals or 91 Skate America though. There would have been no choice.
     
  12. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    I disagree. Kwan w/ a 3-3 and Slute w/ at best only one 3-3 would've given Kwan the Gold. My calculations were at that point in time (2002) Slute was never going to do 2 clean 3-3s. Kwan's 3t-3t was generally more dependable than any 3-3s Slute threw out there
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    363
    8
    18
    I agree Harding was a gold medal threat if she was in her 90 or 91 self, and others missing a jump or 2. I'm not sure if she'd win though if Yamaguchi and Ito were perfect. I think they would have had higher scores. Plus Ito as I said, had even more difficulty planned, and she wasn't s a slouch in the speed and spins department either. Yamaguchi was considered the most artistic, and even with her performance in Albertville had very high marks(wheter deserved or not is another story). Kerrigan and Chouinard would have no hope if all 3 skated well.

    As for SLC I agree Slutskaya had developed such a repertoire that she would have won. Kwan had the advantage of skating at home though, so a perfect skate from her might have done it in that case. In all other competitions outside the US though I do think a clean Slutskaya was winning (as evidenced by their head to head meetings in the early 2000s).
     
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Had Tonya skated cleanly with the triple axel in 92 I think Kristi would have needed both the triple lutz-triple toe and triple salchow clean to beat her, and she never did that. The only time she landed the triple salchow was the 92 Nationals but she didnt do the triple lutz-triple toe there (she had a step in between).

    I am kind of surprised nobody has Bowman even medalling in 92, or even possibly the gold or silver. I only say that since people on this forum I have seen often calling him the most talented skater, and wouldnt the most talented skater translate to something skating their best, even if all others also did? I know I didnt pick him for a medal but that is because I was never one of those who considered him the most talented skater.
     
  15. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    Since this thread goes to 2014 I might as well do what I think will happen in 2014 if all go clean:

    Men

    Gold- Chan. Gold not only if clean, but if he has no more than 4 falls worth of mistakes he will be gif...err I mean given gold even if Fernandez, Takahashi, and Hanyu, his 3 main competitors are all perfect and spectacular. I still predict him to be 3rd or 4th with even more than 4 falls worth of mistakes however, then retiring (thank goodness).

    Silver- Hanyu. His GOEs and inflated PCS would carry him to silver.

    Bronze- Takahashi. Judges still like him as the Grand Prix final showed. Might even be able to do better in this scenario, hard to say. Fernandez also might win silver or bronze in an all clean competition, it would be very close, apart form Chan's 40 point margin of victory.


    Ladies

    Gold- Kim. I dont think this would be the runaway as the men in that case though. Kim, Kostner, and Asada would all end up fairly close in points if all went clean.

    Silver- Asada. She will lose to Kostner if both make a similar number of mistakes, as I think she will, but will beat her if both go clean due to base value.

    Bronze- Kostner. Read above.


    Pairs

    Gold- Volosozhar & Trankov. Would need 2 falls to be in any serious danger at this point.

    Silver- Savchenko & Szolkowy.

    Bronze- Barazova & Larionov. This is if they go clean remember, not neccessarily a prediction of the result.


    Dance:

    Whatever the judges feel that day, but obviously either Davis & White or Virtue & Moir for gold.
     
  16. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    7,144
    620
    113
    I actually give a slight edge to D/W at this point. Over the past few seasons, Team D/W has slowly but effectively corrected what kept them behind V/M for years; making Meryl into a true leading lady whose SS are now equal to Charlie's. A leading lady is probably more important to Ice Dance than Pairs. It's to the point where D/W can beat a healthy V/M in Canada ('13 Worlds). It was never like that before, in the grand scope of things.
     
  17. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    2,127
    209
    63
    When Lysacek beat the clean Plushenko? At Vancouver? Hm. Plushenko wasn't clean in LP, but you are right, his jumps were better like Evan's, contrary to what the Americans thought.
    Lysacek received only a judges warning for a wrong-edged takeoff on his 3F, plus Lysa's first 3A was prerotated.

    and as I wrote:

    Plush's Interp-8,75 Perf/ex- 8,8

    Dai Int-8,65 Perf-8,5

    Evan's Int-8,4 Perf-8,5
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    10,292
    2,220
    113
    kuzytalent,

    I think your rationale may work, but it relies too heavily on past examples. Every competition is new, we have no idea what that particular judging panel on that particular night in the U.S. would have done between Slutskaya and Kwan. We never really saw a competition in which both skaters skated lights out to the best of the abilities against one another. Usually one would win when the other would falter (even if it was slightly). I mean look at S/P v. B/S. S/P won over B/S as many times as Slutskaya beat Kwan over the season prior to SLC (if not more). Then look at what initially happened in SLC.

    Maybe this is me misremembering the attitudes going into SLC, but wasn't it a popular conception (or misconception) that the Olympics were Kwan's to lose since the Nagano narrative was so strong and that the judges were going to give Irina the World title as a consolation. Some said the GPF was also a consolation ala Bourne and Kraatz's win.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    No way Evan's 2nd triple axel should have been credited. It was badly underrotated, but the judges ignored it. I will have to go back on tape and look at the first again. I didnt agree with Evan's win but I didnt want to go there again as it is a dead horse that has been beat repeatedly. I do sense the judges were looking for anyone but Plushenko to win after Inman's letter. After the short they were probably hoping that would be Takahashi, but when he didnt deliver they had to look for it to be Evan who had skated cleanly (well was scored as such anyway).
     
  20. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    13,704
    787
    113
    I agree with you. At this point D&W have the edge. I simply wouldnt call it a foregone conclusion or count V&M out at this point. However if I had to pick the winner now it will definitely be D&W. They will also probably be the sentimental favorites having not won OGM yet.
     
  21. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28

    All my examples are from 2000-2002, including an event to come- 2002 Worlds. Those arent past examples, they are very recent and current examples. Well if looking at how the judges typically scored the two vs each other during this period isnt the best barometer than what is. It seems a far more concrete way of examining the likely outcome than just "oh Kwan was American, Olympics were in the U.S, so she skates clean she wins." Remember most of that years judging panel was from Eastern Europe anyway, which is already advantage Slutskaya. It is pretty obvious looking over many events during the 2000s Eastern European judges especialy considered Irina the best skater in the World if he skated well.

    As for your conception I believe that would indeed be a misconception. Just look at the preview done by Ice Skating International Online for the women in SLC after the Grand Prix final:

    http://www.iceskatingintnl.com/archive/results/gpf01.htm

    Note this is an American based and traditionally heavily pro American site too.

    Despite that Michelle fell and Irina didnt Irina's skate was in most respects worse and much further from her potential best than Kwan's in SLC and Irina still beat Kwan in the LP, and only lost the LP and gold to Hughes and her flawless multiple 3-3s skate by .1, a tiebreaker from one judge (the Finnish judge giving Slutskaya 5.8, 5.8 instead of 5.8, 5.7 vs the 5.7, 5.8 given to Hughes, would have given Slutskaya the gold). Slutskaya had comparable or higher technical marks than Hughes even with only 4 really clean triples, and 3 judges gave her a 5.9 for presentation even with the weak, cautious, and flawed performance. Even Slutskaya's Worlds LP with only 6 triples and no 3-3 but cleanly and well skated would have easily beaten Sarah for the gold. The same might be true of Kwan, but even a simple triple toe-triple toe would not overcome Irina skating last with a triple-triple featuring a triple loop to end it. Just imagine it skated cleanly, especialy with a triple salchow-triple toe or triple loop (or something harder, depending what she chose) and skating last. The marks would have been through the roof and higher than even a clean Kwan could have ever topped. Kwan skating before Slutskaya the judges would have also had no choice but to leave room for Slutskaya in the scores no matter how well Kwan skated.

    Salt Lake City and Turin golds were both clearly Slutskaya's to lose and she lost both.
     
  22. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28
    As for Bourne & Kraatz winning the Grand Prix final there are obvious reasons why that happened:

    1. It was in Canada. This is the most obvious of all. We see today with Chan's ridiculous wins and scores, Sale & Pelletier's 2nd gold medal after being judged to not be the winners, and a few other cases how powerful the Canadian skating federation must be. By far the most powerful and influential behind the scenes federation in the World, and not the Russian fed. as media would like North Americans to believe. Remember Bourne & Kraatz even beating the great Krylova & Ovsiannikov to win the 1997 Grand Prix final in Canada, at a time they had no hope vs them anywhere else. They won 2 Grand Prix finals (basically another Worlds) before winning their first World silver, and both Grand Prix finals were in Canada. Also remember the Grand Prix final in Canada where Stojko fell and still beat a clean Eldredge.

    2. The other top teams were not as prepared for the event. Anissina & Peizerat did not have their free dance finely tuned. They easily beat Bourne & Kraatz in all the other programs at that event. The team of Barbara Fusar Poli was not ready for the event at all. Lobacheva & Averbuhk werent event there.

    3. The silly 3 program format helped them win. They were a distant 2nd in the first dance, barely 2nd over 3rd place in the second, then barely won the third on a 4-3 split and won. Under a regular format they would have never won the event, even in Canada, and with all the other top teams not at their best.

    They also would have won the silver or bronze in Salt Lake City without their fall so it was not like they were out of contention there. They won silver at Worlds that year too.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  23. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    10,292
    2,220
    113
    I disagree. I think Kwan would have won based on the presentation mark. The SP marks clearly showcased this. If Kwan's tech marks were capped out at 5.7/5.8, then I could foresee Kwan getting straight 5.9s in presentation for an inspired LP skate. Look at her presentation marks in the SP (which is clearer indicator how the judges would have rewarded Kwan for the SLC competition in the U.S.). Even if Irina were to do one 3/3 (I don't know how we're defining clean here as we never knew exactly what Irina was planning), she could have received tech. marks in the 5.8-5.9 range, but I don't foresee her beating Kwan in the presentation mark. Even looking at the 5.9s Irina received in SLC, she still received 2 5.6s and 3 5.7s. Kwan, with her more flawed skate (a very cautious start, a double-foot on her 3 toe, a serious fall that distracted from the program, and changing the ending of the program to add an extra jump that took away from the overall impression of the routine) still received two 5.9s, 6 5.8s, and 1 5.7.

    Anyway, I still think the dynamic that Hughes topping Kwan before Irina's skate created created an almost chaotic situation where some judges wanted to ensure a win for Slutskaya (and avoid giving Hughes the gold) while others wanted to ensure a win for Hughes and some others wanting to ensure a win for Kwan . I mean it's telling that Kwan with her very flawed skate, still received a majority of second place ordinals. The only difference was with which skater the judges had first.

    I think time has made forget how liked Michelle Kwan was by the judges even if they seemed to show favoritism towards Irina. At 2001 Worlds, the judges could have given Irina the gold with her 3/3 attempts. They were surely under rotated, one of them had a stumble, but they were valiant efforts. However, the presentation marks Irina received were in the 5.6/5.7 range. It was sort of a blow-out, with Kwan winning on a 7-2 split. The marks made it seem like Irina made more mistakes than she really did. I simply remember people expecting Irina to win the earlier season events by the time the 2001-2002 season started with Kwan turning it up for the big events with the judges falling more in her favor. That's how it almost happened too, if the SP was any indication (where Irina was cleaner on the jumps but Kwan turning up her presentation and skating with more fire than she had all season).
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  24. kuzytalent

    kuzytalent Active Member

    489
    90
    28
    Well you are wrong. Irina skating cleanly with a 3-3 would get almost all 5.9s on the technical mark and maybe even some 6.0s (depending what scores Kwan got and which 3-3 she chose), and Kwan would not get straight 5.9s for presentation for that blah program even skated cleanly. Even her much better programs from the 2000 and 2001 Worlds skated brilliantly didnt. Her short program did since it was a signature program and she skated last of all the contenders. Irina got 3 5.9s for presentation even for her 55% of her best skate, so even if you were right on Kwan's presentation marks she would still lose. Irina would trounce Kwan in the technical mark and receive comparable presentation scores if both skated well. You are a Kwan fan so are in denial, fine, I dont care, I know I am right, and I am not even an Irina or Michelle fan so unlike you I have no bias in this case. I just notice the judges at the time liked her skating more all things equal, and it has nothing to do with liking her skating which frankly I dont (even less than Kwan, although both I find boring). You even picked Kwan winning the 2000 Worlds had all, she, Irina, and Maria skated cleanly I recall and Kwan had only 15% of the votes there, and yet you still picked her, LOL! You probably would pick Kwan as the winner in an all clean competition at event she was ever in, even if she reinstated for the 2010 Olympics and competed against Kim under COP that is what you would pick and argue defiantly to anyone who disagreed. You love Kwan to death so no point arguing anything involving her with you, that is fine, we all have our favorites.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  25. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    10,292
    2,220
    113
    You can't tell me I'm wrong since all of this isn't based on things that actually happened. You're interpreting certain facts to make your case, but that doesn't make them convincing or "right" either. Nobody knows for certain how the judges were going to score a clean Slutskaya or Kwan in the SLC LP. This is a hypothetical situation that has no real right or wrong answer. I just didn't find your rationale convincing, and you're blowing your top.

    Also, nice way to make it personal. Ad hominem arguments are always so convincing...even more than the argument about using a FSU popularity poll (with like what...a little over 200 people, if even that, to make your point).
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
  26. skateboy

    skateboy Well-Known Member

    4,373
    918
    113
    Sorry, no. I agree with VIETgrlTerifa, there is no "right" or "wrong" here. The fact is, you have no proof that the judges would have voted any certain way, had everyone skated clean. This thread is pure speculation.

    (And no, this has nothing to do with preferring Kwan. Most posters here know I never liked her all that much.)
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2013
  27. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    759
    47
    28
    Baiul going clean only bronze at the 94 Olympics? Would never happen, and if it did it wouldnt be behind Chen, and probably not behind Kerrigan. She skated less clean than Kerrigan in both programs, and less clean than Chen in the long, and still beat both, and she never had trouble beating Chen. Between Kerrigan, Baiul, Bonaly, and Chen the results if all went clean would have probably been Baiul-Kerrigan-Bonaly-Chen in that order if all went clean. It is possibly Bonaly would have been higher than that since her long program was by far the most technically difficult of all the women in the event, but she would probably still lose out to Baiul and Kerrigan by the 2nd mark. Sato and Josee C. are the wild cards. I have no idea where the judges would have slotted them in had they gone clean, and those other 4 also had gone clean. They did not do enough clean competitions to properly evaluate where the judges would see them. Tonya Harding even going clean would not have been been in medal contention this year unless she did her triple axel, and the whack never happened. Witt wouldnt have been either.
     
  28. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    759
    47
    28
    These would be the lady and dance podiums if all were clean from 92-2002

    Gold- Duchensays. Their mistakes let Klimova & Sergei win. They wouldnt deserve it even clean but judges would make them then.
    Silver- Klimova & Sergei
    Bronze- Usova & Zhulin

    Gold- Usova & Zhulin. Their mistake near the end of the free dance let Gritschuk & Platov win.
    Silver- Torvill & Dean. Without illegal move they beat G&P too.
    Bronze- Gristchuk & Platov

    Nagano dance- same

    Salt Lake dance- same. Bourne & Kraatz have bronze chance since Barbara falls but Shae Lynn falls too.


    Gold- Yamaguchi. If she does clean the judges give all 5.9s for both technical and artistic.
    Silver- Ito. If she goes clean judges give 5.9s and 6.0s technical and mostly 5.8s and few 5.9s artistic, not enough to beat Yamaguchi.
    Bronze- Harding.

    Gold- Baiul or Sato or Josee
    Silver- Baiul or Sato or Josee or Kerrigan or Bonaly
    Bronze- Sato or Josee or Kerrigan or Bonaly

    Gold- Lipinski
    Silver- Butyrskaya. I think skate from 99 Europeans and 99 Worlds would beat Kwan for silver.
    Bronze- Kwan

    Gold- Cohen. Quad salchow and triple lutz-triple toe combined with beautiful Carmen would ensure her gold even over Slutskaya and Kwan
    Silver- Slutskaya
    Bronze- Kwan
     
  29. KimGOAT

    KimGOAT Active Member

    759
    47
    28
    Doing the 80s too:

    Sarajevo

    Pairs- Gold German team, Silver Russian team, Bronze Underhill/Martini
    Men- Gold Hamilton, Silver Fadeev, Bronze Cerne or Orser or Sabovcik
    Dance- Blumberg & Seibert win silver skating clean without illegalities/mistakes
    Ladies- Gold Sumners (but she never was going to be clean), Silver Witt, Bronze Kondrashova or Vodorezova or Leistner (not Ivanova for sure)

    Calgary

    Pairs- Gold Russians, Silver, Russians, Bronze Russians. Selezneva & Makarov probably silver over Valova if both are clean.
    Men- Gold Fadeev, Silver Orser, Bronze Boitano. A clean Orser would easily beat clean Boitano. Short program proved that. Fadeeva was adored by judges and would get huge scores if clean, which he never was except at Europeans.
    Dance- Same
    Ladies- Gold Manley, Silver Thomas, Bronze Witt. Manley's short program misses cost her the gold.
     
  30. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    2,682
    1,006
    113
    :lol: