What separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley Wagner's?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Kwantumleap, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    ITA. Michelle's artistry seemed to come straight from the heart. I don't feel Ashley is in the same league artistically; she seems to 'force' the artistry- for example her facial expression does not look natural at all. I appreciate and respect the hard work she has put into reinventing herself, to get to this point. Confidence wise, I am happy to see her develop so much. In Michelle's case, she was a natural- technically and artistically. The only time I felt Michelle was lacking in confidence was in the 1996-97 season when she was dealing with a growth spurt. IMHO Ashley is not in the same league as Michelle. However, others who were not in the same league have won OGMs, so Ashley still has a chance to achieve that.
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  2. spikydurian

    spikydurian New Member

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    Kween Fans :revenge: PeterG
    Kween Fans :lynch: :EVILLE: PeterG
  3. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    :rofl: :lol:

    Can't wait to see what you have to say next PG. You are just such a "natural," no foolin'. ;)

    Glad I'd already swallowed most of my coke ... (as in coca-cola), prior to reading your devilish post.


    :respec:


    Hey folks, did you all check out that Skating magazine link I posted with the pic of Ashley and Kwan together? They are such strikingly lovely ladies. Seems to me that they both probably admire each other in equal measure. :) Plus both their smiles in that pic are so "natural." ;)


    Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
  4. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

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    Well, the OP started the thread asking what separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley and that is what people are discussing. What are we supposed to say? No one is saying she is arrogant or believes she is the next Michelle...at least I have not read anyone say that. Most people are talking about the difference being Michelle's natural way to connect to the music, along with showmanship being a big difference between the two skaters. Ashley said she is trying to use Michelle's ability to perform as an inspiration, and those are some things she needs to work on more to get closer to achieving that level of skating. I really have not read anything mean spirited.
  5. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

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    This program and performance is one of the most beautiful moments I've personally witnessed in figure skating. Michelle's artistic maturity was unbelievable for the age of 15. You don't see this attention paid to the details of the choreography and nuances of the music in any of the current 15-16-year old ladies. Just impressive.
  6. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Didn't she say not so long ago that she was inspired by Lipinski?
  7. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    By the way, another very contrasting difference between Wagner and Kwan is that Kwan used to work so hard on her exhibition programs. The details in East of Eden, Winter, Dante's Prayer, Les Mes, Red Violin, Hands, Fields of Gold... are incredible as exhibition programs. On the other hand, Wagner's exhibition programs looked like she spent only 2 hours practising them.

    I know - Kwan used to get a lot of $$ from appearance fees at those pro-ams and shows etc and that's why they had to be good. But now that Wagner is winning or at least medalling a lot more, she needs to have thoughtful programs too, especially if she wants to grab more show opportunities in US and in Asia and if she wants to be taken more seriously as an artrist and be compared to Kwan...
  8. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

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    Right. I remember that Wagner said her idol was Tara, 2 years ago. ;)
  9. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    Not to be disrespectful to Tara because I really love her Nagano LP performance but I think Ashley's change of heart tells something about what she learned from watching and "studying" Michelle: winning skating and secure career. Sadly, artistry of Michelle seems to be a long long way for Ashley. Well, that goes for everyone else so, I don't blame her. You can't really compare MK with anybody really. Michelle was truly one of a kind, to come out once in a thousand years at least.
  10. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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  11. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    ^So, mystery of who's whose idol is solved, I guess?:p
  12. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    With points to rack up and so many other details to consider, it makes me wonder if Janet Lynn would have been the same kind of free skater under CoP?
  13. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Seriously, is this even a proper question? Been few weeks since I visit FSU, but desperation I seethe, USA demand the return of the KWAN, and they will do anything!!!

    What I will say is Ashley's Red Violin has nothing to do with the red violin of the music or the mystery of the film which the music was written for. While Kwan's drew you in and haunt you just like the film, Ashley's version wins competitions - that's about it, she won in a weak ladies field without any WC podium finishers from the last quads.

    While I really enjoyed Ashley's Black Swan last year, this year clearly the emphasis was on the packaging rather than substance. She sells it well, but missing the heart/emotion of MK's skate every time she steps on the ice as if she is living in the moment. As a result, Ashley's performance will not be memorable to me this year, although yes it will still win competitions, very much like how Miki has done. (Of course Ashley is still tons better than Miki in terms of performance and projection.)

    Ultimately Ashley should be own her lady, I think give her something star spangled banner in a cheer leader outfit, she'd totally ace it. Just like one of those girls from the movie 'Bring it on'. I can totally see her live up to the US Champion title this year. (Come on Mirai.. what are you doing?! Bring the 3:3 back, what have you got to loose?)
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Probably not. She apparently hated the new short program because she was "required" to do things. Thank goodness her wonderous skating was not inhibited by alot of the silliness of COP.
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Well, not sure if she could have been as competitive, but she most likely would have been as light across the ice as ever which is the most important point anyway.
  16. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  17. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    IIRC, she was still her mentor at 2011 Nats. After that, nothing else was mentioned.
  18. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Well-Known Member

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    People have already summed up how I feel really.

    When I look at Wagner, I am impressed - but what it is impressing me is her obvious work ethic and application. She clearly knows what she wants and knows how to get it - a quality in itself. However, there is also a slightly "contrived" feel to her skating in comparison to some others (not just Kwan) as I don't think she's necessarily a natural, neither artistically nor athletically. I just think she's tremendously determined above all else. And it's probably going to get her far.
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

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    What is it to mentoring someone ? I remember Dorothy Hamill saying that she was mentoring Rachael Flatt. But what dod you do when you're mentoring someone ?
  20. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

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    You text during her long program in Greensboro..:p
  21. Coco

    Coco Well-Known Member

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    I love Ashley's intensity and grace.

    What made Michelle so special is hard to articulate. But she had a way of bringing a piece of music alive in a way very few skaters ever approach. Songs and singers I would have never paid attention to suddenly become the most amazing pieces of music I've heard in a long time, after Michelle skates to them. And I'm not even a huge fan. Of course, this doesn't work with everything she skated to, and she frequently started with great music. But still, I think it's something about her. She presents music to the viewer like Sergei presented Katia, lol.
  22. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I love your post, particularly that last sentence.:violin:
  23. Karpenko

    Karpenko Well-Known Member

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    That's a great way to put it. She made even Song of the Black Swan seem approachable. She knew how to make people watch her, she was the one to draw me into figure skating for the same reason. There was something about her where you couldn't take your eyes off of her, and once you became a fan she so rarely let you down that it was impossible for me not to root for her. She had that "pow" to her performance that I've never ever seen another skater have, and she did it without being obnoxious and was a lady the entire time. Your post is also exactly why I'm such a huge fan of "Dante's Prayer", I would most likely hate that dreary song if Michelle hadn't skated to it. ;)

    I can't believe how long it's been since Michelle Kwan was skating. I really lost a lot of interest in the sport after she left, she made me care about skating way more than I should have. :lol: Still the best. :)
  24. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    Hmm, I will be the thinking man/woman's PeterG. Do I think Michelle Kwan had such more innate musicality or "artistry" than Ashley Wagner. Well, no. Michelle was very studied in her competitive career. She had a great team. I get so annoyed when posters say "Kwan skated with HEART". So what? You know what I think Kwan's appeal was? We saw her as a tiny gangly pre-teen jumper who through hard work and discipline created GREAT programs. Was she 'more artistic'? Hell no. She was trained well. I respect that. I could watch her all the way up to Nagano. Her programs were complex and interesting and not just Slutskaya Chorus Line crap. What I object to is this *myth* of a Kwan as artist. The last several years of the end of her career her programs were identical, there was nothing artistic. When her fanwhores claim how much she skated from 'the heart' is really to me how her fans reacted to her skating from 'their heart'. She wasn't doing anything but being Michelle Kwan, and I'm sorry, a "SMIRAL" does not a Bolero masterpiece make.

    This whole crap about Kwan being such an artiste is sickening IMO. It was her fans who fell in love with the girl/woman she is, and she has proven herself to be a wonderful person in society. But to watch her barebones by number Bolero, Rodriguo et al and say she was 'such an artist' is such BS. She landed triple jumps consistently and won an insane amount of titles due to her triple jumps. To say Kwan 'skates from the heart' while dissing Wagner is craziness. I was impressed with Kwan's Salome, Majal, and Angelica. The rest, not so much. I was impressed with Wagner's Swan and this year Delilah, both are skaters who are hungry to win and acquired teams to get them to that point.

    I never saw Kwan as an 'artiste'. She had too many limitations. Her fans saw her skating from THEIR hearts. Kwan really didn't put anything down after maybe 2001 to classify her as an artiste. Big difference.

    PeterG, I match your 100, and raise you 500.
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  25. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Kwan fan, but sickening? Seriously? I think maybe you're taking it a bit personally if the fact that Kwan's fans think she's a great artist actually makes you physically ill. I mean, it's not like they're claiming that Emily Hughes is the Greatest Artiste of All Time or something...
  26. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    I feel more or less the same way, and the statement I just bolded unravels the whole mystery.

    Still, I respect what she has done for US skating and skating as a whole.
  27. centerstage01

    centerstage01 Well-Known Member

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    You know what...never mind. Someone with that much hate bottled up is sad.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  28. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

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    I was never a Kwan fan per se but I almost always enjoyed her performances. I just think that Ashley who has massively improved these past couple of seasons has to work on her performance/artistic components while for Michelle it just came naturally. I just don't believe it can be taught. One can improve but if you're not born with it you can only progress so far. I do enjoy Ashley's performances much more than I used to though. Jmo.
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Ah, well maybe after Ashley moved West to work with Mr. Nicks, she wasn't in contact with Tara as much. Isn't Tara based more on the East coast now?


    Another thought re l'etoile's comment about "icon mystery" being solved:

    Ashley being impressed by and looking up to Lipinski and seeing her as a role model, does not exclude Ash from also being impressed by Michelle Kwan's skating and accomplishments. It's fantastic for Ashley that she has been able to learn from the successes of both Tara and Michelle. :)
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  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    Kwan's artistry might be overrated by some, and in general a skater who is famous and been around a long time and skates at the top level a long gets overrated naturally by all, includind judges, fans, experts, etc... However in her own era atleast she is definitely one of the most artistic. The only ones who come close or are argaubly better were Lu Chen and Sasha Cohen. The rest:

    Irina Slutskaya- LOL (at her artistic abilities that is, I do respect she is a great technical skater, and probably the best of the entire Kwan era other than maybe 97-98 Lipinski)
    Maria Butyrskaya- Had some nice artistic qualities but too stiff kneed and too cold in emoting
    Sarah Hughes- too gawky, awful posture, not wonderful artistically in anyway really, although she had decent choreography and extension
    Shizuka Arakawa- some nice programs artistically, nothing that set you on fire though apart from maybe her Turandot program
    Tara Lipinski- still developing artistically when she quit
    Fumie Suguri- cant even straighten her free leg, definitely not a first rate artist or skater

    Nobody else even noteable of the whole 1996-2006 period. It wasnt a very strong one with many elite lady skaters in fact. Maybe it could be argued part of the reason she stood out so much, especialy in an artistic sense, was she skated in mostly a weak era with little competition, but that isnt her fault.
  31. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

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    Kwan isn't the artistic genius of say Lambiel or Takahashi, but I find her to be an artist. Performers can have great choreography lay the steps out for them, but it takes a special performer to really make them sing.

    Kwan in her later years had simple choreography compared to her programs in her prime, and it is quite evident she was focusing on landing her jumps when her health was in decline, but there was still a purpose to her movement and an innate musicality that existed, even if her transitions didn't express them.

    I agree that she wasn't the most natural performer. Baiul is the epitome of natural...even Bobek. However, Kwan did have something special that let her sense the music (especially lyrical pieces) that I think one can see even in her gawky early years with the ponytail. There was something inviting in her expression and a sense of her feeling something...even if she didn't quite learn how to project that out at that point in time.
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  32. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Vietgrl to some extent. She is not the natural performer that Baiul, Bobek, and Takahashi are (and I would even add Cohen to that list, but not Lambiel; IMO his was a developed artistry like Kwan's), but she always had the quality deep inside, which was brought out quite early. At age 14 we could see that she had it in her, and by age 15, she could already feel the music and express it. I thought by age 16 when she skated to Taj Mahal, she had already developed artistically. In 2001 I saw a greater maturity in her artistic expression, in Song of the Black Swan. I thought Scheherzade was a tiny step back, but her exhibitions got even better by that time.

    I enjoyed her performances through 2001 more than her later performances (2002-2004), but those later performances had stronger passion. The only Kwan program I disliked was Bolero, but as Vietgrl wrote, she may have diluted it (and probably couple years before that too) to protect her health. Even then, when she skated, she brought the audience into the music, and on to the ice when she skated. She could skate to music that is familiar or totally unfamiliar, and make it interesting.

    Since this thread is about Kwan vs. Ashley artistically, I have to say that I don't see that quality in Ashley, and she may never develop it. At least so far I have felt that it is rather forced, and it does not touch me the way Kwan's did. It does not mean Ashley cannot win competitions or cannot establish her own greatness in the future. I am happy to see her determination and the progress she has made since last year. I just don't feel that artistically she is in the same class as Michelle.
  33. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    New SI article where Ashley talks about how Tara inspired her.

    It is entirely possible to be inspired by more than one person, FYI - especially when you were single digits when those two people were rivals.
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  34. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

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    from that article:

    Ruh roh - careful what you ask for!
  35. Alex Forrest

    Alex Forrest Banned Member

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    I suppose this comment was to me? "Hate bottled up"? Are you serious? Get a life.

    In no way am I trying to disparage The Kwan. She is a model citizen. She is a role model. No messy affairs/divorces, meth arrests, media foul balls. Anyone would want her as a daughter, friend, spouse, whatever. She is top notch in every way. Sorry Centerstage that you somehow think there is so much hate bottled up in me. Your loss, girlfriend. As Ray Charles would say "You don't know me". Or maybe you are too young to know who Ray Charles is. Google it then.

    As for Ashley, let me put it to you this way. The first 30 seconds of her Delilah is pushing it. It takes someone with 'artistry' or chutzpah to do those first 30 seconds. Imagine Rachael Flatt trying that choreo. So I do think Ashley has an artistic sensibility. Her Black Swan was an eye opener. I am pleased with her success and her growth as a skater.

    A hater these days I am not. Sorry to disappoint.

    Also, I am not posting as JudgeJudy even though he/she and I seem to agree on everything and write the same way.
  36. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

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    Really? I think there are serious differences between you and judgejudy. I'm surprised people think that.
  37. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

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    I remember seeing 2001 Worlds in person. What struck me about Michelle versus Slutskaya, for example, was that with Kwan, I was drawn into the performance. Only afterwards, did I realize just how much technical merit it contained. With Irina, all I saw were the tricks.

    Under CoP, Ashley is not only challenging herself by combining difficult choreography and technical content, she is performing and projecting, too.

    I recall Kwan being interviewed about her experience with IJS, and she said, it was more difficult to lose herself in the program. Instead, she found herself counting.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  38. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Alex, but when I read that post of yours, I was shocked that it sounded so hateful. I did not think you had so much hatred in you. The post did come out that way, whether you intended it or not.

    I disagree with both you and JudgeJudy's assessment of Kwan, but it's a lot easier to respond to hers than yours, based on how she wrote it, without strong negative emotions, in her comments.

    Sorry. Just my perspective.
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2012
  39. Vash01

    Vash01 Well-Known Member

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    I am one of those who absolutely loved the way Irina presented herself on the ice. She was not as musical as Michelle, and Michelle was clearly the superior artist, but I loved them both, despite their differences.

    About Kwan's comment on IJS, I think many skaters who spent most of their careers under 6.0 had that difficulty. Case in point Johnny Weir. He could never adjust to COP. Even Plushenko had difficulty with it in the 2010 Olympics because he had not competed under COP very long. I remember reading a comment by Anton Sikharulidze some time ago. He said (parapharasing) he & Elena would not be able to be competitive under COP. In a way we were lucky that we got to see some of the greatest skating before COP came into play. We have seen some great programs under COP too, but they are far fewer. JMHO.
  40. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

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    I think Irina Slutskaya had very good presentation but not very good "artistry" per say which is why I am glad the mark was changed to presentation as it accomodates a greater variety of skating styles and strengths. JMO