What separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley Wagner's?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Kwantumleap, Nov 21, 2012.

  1. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Fair enough. I do see what you are saying and you are probably right. I do think though Irina by many of her complaints and complaints about her scores and results (even when she didnt do her best technical performance) had somehow deluded herself into thinking she was this grand artist, so probably didnt work on it as much as she should have. Then again I dont know how much she could have even fixed such basic things as extensions and turnouts even with any amount of work. She just didnt have it.
     
  2. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    460
    Ashley has been taught choreography and she does what she is taught. Michelle was taught movements but she made them her own and she felt the movements the music and the energy of the crowd.
     
  3. rfisher

    rfisher Satisfied skating fan

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2005
    Messages:
    40,806
    I take it you don't understand PeterG's sarcasm. :lol:
     
  4. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Ummm no I got it. I was one upping him. LOL. Guess it was not funny :/
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  5. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    8,788
    I think rfisher hit the wrong button and meant her comment for RickInSanJose. I like his "Seriously..." comment. :lol:
     
  6. michiruwater

    michiruwater Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    9,205
    I'm confused by the notion that, since Ashley has stated that she admires Michelle and is trying to emulate her in some ways, that means that Ashley is really hoping to turn into a Kwan clone and also that she's a crazy arrogant person who actually believes she is capable of becoming The Kween, etc.

    I mean, is it really a bad thing to have a young woman with work ethic who is trying very hard to emulate certain aspects of the US's greatest all-time skater? I'm really not sure why all these people find it necessary to strictly comment on all the aspects of Ashley that just Do Not Measure Up to Michelle, as though to put the young woman in her place for even daring to admire and work towards emulating aspects of Michelle's skating.
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  7. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2004
    Messages:
    3,954
    Of course not! It's about time we had a lady aspire to higher than 5th at worlds, etc.


    I guess she brought it on herself by mentioning Kwan so explicitly- people would obviously begin comparing the two. It's really not a fair comparison though. I still want to wait and see how she handles being in the spotlight and the increased expectations that come with that. People will begin expecting a world medal from her, for instance- can she live up to that?

    On the topic, Wagner does not appear to be a natural in the expressive-type of skating, and if she doesn't have it I don't think there's much use trying to be something she isn't. Yes, it is nice that she is extending her boundaries but you don't want to overdo it...still, she probably feels she needs to do so to separate herself from the Russians, etc. Do whatever it takes to win, right?
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,006
    The same thing that separates Yamaguchi from Lipinski . . . Hamill from Lipinski . . . etc. They are just not the same skaters.
     
  9. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    4,891
    So many people just don't get PeterG:yikes:
     
  10. PeterG

    PeterG Argle-Bargle-ist

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2002
    Messages:
    8,788
    :drama:

    :wuzrobbed
     
  11. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Sasha

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    25,816
    ITA. Michelle's artistry seemed to come straight from the heart. I don't feel Ashley is in the same league artistically; she seems to 'force' the artistry- for example her facial expression does not look natural at all. I appreciate and respect the hard work she has put into reinventing herself, to get to this point. Confidence wise, I am happy to see her develop so much. In Michelle's case, she was a natural- technically and artistically. The only time I felt Michelle was lacking in confidence was in the 1996-97 season when she was dealing with a growth spurt. IMHO Ashley is not in the same league as Michelle. However, others who were not in the same league have won OGMs, so Ashley still has a chance to achieve that.
     
    kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  12. spikydurian

    spikydurian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    2,694
    Kween Fans :revenge: PeterG
    Kween Fans :lynch: :EVILLE: PeterG
     
  13. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,648

    :rofl: :lol:

    Can't wait to see what you have to say next PG. You are just such a "natural," no foolin'. ;)

    Glad I'd already swallowed most of my coke ... (as in coca-cola), prior to reading your devilish post.


    :respec:


    Hey folks, did you all check out that Skating magazine link I posted with the pic of Ashley and Kwan together? They are such strikingly lovely ladies. Seems to me that they both probably admire each other in equal measure. :) Plus both their smiles in that pic are so "natural." ;)


    Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
     
  14. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2006
    Messages:
    1,840
    Well, the OP started the thread asking what separates Kwan's artistry from Ashley and that is what people are discussing. What are we supposed to say? No one is saying she is arrogant or believes she is the next Michelle...at least I have not read anyone say that. Most people are talking about the difference being Michelle's natural way to connect to the music, along with showmanship being a big difference between the two skaters. Ashley said she is trying to use Michelle's ability to perform as an inspiration, and those are some things she needs to work on more to get closer to achieving that level of skating. I really have not read anything mean spirited.
     
  15. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,217
    This program and performance is one of the most beautiful moments I've personally witnessed in figure skating. Michelle's artistic maturity was unbelievable for the age of 15. You don't see this attention paid to the details of the choreography and nuances of the music in any of the current 15-16-year old ladies. Just impressive.
     
  16. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,315
    Didn't she say not so long ago that she was inspired by Lipinski?
     
  17. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,315
    By the way, another very contrasting difference between Wagner and Kwan is that Kwan used to work so hard on her exhibition programs. The details in East of Eden, Winter, Dante's Prayer, Les Mes, Red Violin, Hands, Fields of Gold... are incredible as exhibition programs. On the other hand, Wagner's exhibition programs looked like she spent only 2 hours practising them.

    I know - Kwan used to get a lot of $$ from appearance fees at those pro-ams and shows etc and that's why they had to be good. But now that Wagner is winning or at least medalling a lot more, she needs to have thoughtful programs too, especially if she wants to grab more show opportunities in US and in Asia and if she wants to be taken more seriously as an artrist and be compared to Kwan...
     
  18. t.mann

    t.mann New Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2011
    Messages:
    256
    Right. I remember that Wagner said her idol was Tara, 2 years ago. ;)
     
  19. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    4,891
    Not to be disrespectful to Tara because I really love her Nagano LP performance but I think Ashley's change of heart tells something about what she learned from watching and "studying" Michelle: winning skating and secure career. Sadly, artistry of Michelle seems to be a long long way for Ashley. Well, that goes for everyone else so, I don't blame her. You can't really compare MK with anybody really. Michelle was truly one of a kind, to come out once in a thousand years at least.
     
  20. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,634
  21. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2010
    Messages:
    4,891
    ^So, mystery of who's whose idol is solved, I guess?:p
     
  22. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,611
    With points to rack up and so many other details to consider, it makes me wonder if Janet Lynn would have been the same kind of free skater under CoP?
     
  23. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    870
    Seriously, is this even a proper question? Been few weeks since I visit FSU, but desperation I seethe, USA demand the return of the KWAN, and they will do anything!!!

    What I will say is Ashley's Red Violin has nothing to do with the red violin of the music or the mystery of the film which the music was written for. While Kwan's drew you in and haunt you just like the film, Ashley's version wins competitions - that's about it, she won in a weak ladies field without any WC podium finishers from the last quads.

    While I really enjoyed Ashley's Black Swan last year, this year clearly the emphasis was on the packaging rather than substance. She sells it well, but missing the heart/emotion of MK's skate every time she steps on the ice as if she is living in the moment. As a result, Ashley's performance will not be memorable to me this year, although yes it will still win competitions, very much like how Miki has done. (Of course Ashley is still tons better than Miki in terms of performance and projection.)

    Ultimately Ashley should be own her lady, I think give her something star spangled banner in a cheer leader outfit, she'd totally ace it. Just like one of those girls from the movie 'Bring it on'. I can totally see her live up to the US Champion title this year. (Come on Mirai.. what are you doing?! Bring the 3:3 back, what have you got to loose?)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2012
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,466
    Probably not. She apparently hated the new short program because she was "required" to do things. Thank goodness her wonderous skating was not inhibited by alot of the silliness of COP.
     
  25. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

    Joined:
    May 9, 2002
    Messages:
    11,315
    Well, not sure if she could have been as competitive, but she most likely would have been as light across the ice as ever which is the most important point anyway.
     
  26. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2009
    Messages:
    4,648
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2012
  27. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,634
    IIRC, she was still her mentor at 2011 Nats. After that, nothing else was mentioned.
     
  28. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka Gettin' my sass out

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    12,320
    People have already summed up how I feel really.

    When I look at Wagner, I am impressed - but what it is impressing me is her obvious work ethic and application. She clearly knows what she wants and knows how to get it - a quality in itself. However, there is also a slightly "contrived" feel to her skating in comparison to some others (not just Kwan) as I don't think she's necessarily a natural, neither artistically nor athletically. I just think she's tremendously determined above all else. And it's probably going to get her far.
     
  29. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,448
    What is it to mentoring someone ? I remember Dorothy Hamill saying that she was mentoring Rachael Flatt. But what dod you do when you're mentoring someone ?
     
  30. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Joined:
    May 26, 2002
    Messages:
    2,634
    You text during her long program in Greensboro..:p