What if T&D had competed from 1984-1994?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Cherub721, Dec 29, 2012.

  1. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,040
    The “what if…” thread on K&O’s retirement had me thinking about T&D and their comeback in 1994. What if instead of coming back, they had stayed eligible for all those years? Would they have built on their incredible success with Bolero, or burned out with an additional 10 years of competing? Could they have won 3 Olympic golds? 4?

    The 1985-88 quad would have been really interesting. B&B really stepped it up in those years. During T&D’s time they had those folksy programs, but they moved on to Carmen, Rachmaninoff, Cabaret, and Polovetsian Dances which are masterpieces, IMO. Still, I don’t think it would be enough to stave off T&D. T&D would probably have the lead in the CD/OSP and in those days it would be difficult to move up after being slotted second. And as we can see from their pro stuff, T&D were still in their creative prime. Bestemianova was such a diva though and it would’ve been a great fight.

    For 1989-1992. K&P were such a great team and I want to say that Air was an unbeatable and perfect FD. But then, the Duschenays were a big challenge to K&P, mainly because of Dean’s choreography. They lacked in the skating skills department, but if T&D had kept those programs for themselves (not so hard to imagine), they probably would have beaten K&P regularly. So we’re potentially looking at T&D winning OGM in 1988 and 1992, and up to 12 World titles (though I believe B&B and K&P would’ve each stolen at least one Worlds).

    By 1993-1994 though I believe T&D would’ve begun to slide (it’s incredibly unlikely they would’ve stayed til then anyway). They were past their prime by then, and even the great skaters who decide to overstay their welcome get dumped eventually like the Protopopovs. I guess in that scenario, K&P would stay on to win in 1994. Duschenays would probably never make the podium at all.
     
  2. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    Let me just say that I would have absolutely loved to have seen a competition between T&D, K&P and G&P at their primes. It would have to be a bit of time warp, because they all hit their prime at different times, but what a fabulous competition that would be: Bolero v. Air v. Memorial, not to mention all of those fab. CD and ODs. :swoon:

    ETA: If T&D did compete through 1988, 1992, or even 1994, how would that impacted the programs B&B, K&P or any other team created? Would K&P had gone in a more artistic/dramatic direction even earlier to counteract T&D? What about T&D's programs, would they had continue to stretch the line in terms of creativity/innovation on ice? I'm thinking about D&D's "Mirror Image" program, that according to Dean, the judges at Euros felt too obscure. If T&D with their reputation and skating skills, performed "Mirror Image" would the judges have been more receptive? Or, would T&D after a few more years of stretching the bounds in terms of creativity: performing routines such as Missing, Savage Rites, Mirror Imagine, eventually switch to a more traditional, ballroom style of dance by 1992/1993?
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,015
    Ice Dance "competitions" would have gotten more boring, but the performances would have been nice to watch.
     
  4. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,117
    I don't think anyone would have challenged them IF they had kept up the same quality from '84.. K&P were great but as the OP said, if the Duschesnays were sometimes beating them, I don't see them being able to beat T&D.. I also don't think that G&P and U&Z would have challenged them if they had stayed consistently in the amateur ranks. The only reason those two Russian teams were able to beat them in '94 is because T&D had been out of competition for years before '94, allowing the other teams to build up a better reputation and therefore place ahead of them.
     
  5. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,455
    Ice Dancing was so much about politiks. I'm sure T&D wouldn't have been unbeatable for so long.
    Considering the talented teams would medaled after they retired, I'm happy that they retired in 1984. ;)
     
  6. vivika1982

    vivika1982 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,691
    I dare to disagree with you. I wished they skated/competed longer as much as i liked B/B,K/P and G/P. If they've continued competing they would've been unbeatable.Just imagine them skating Duchesney's Tango,Missing and other programs they choreographed during those 10 years , add the magic spell from their Bolero and ask no more about politiking :)
     
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    They would have easily dominated the 84-88 quad. After that I suspect they would start showing the effects of many years of top level amateur competition and training. Anyway I dont think there is any chance they would stay in after 8 years of total dominance, skating isnt like swimming where you can chase Olympic records to motivate you. I was surprised they didnt stay in one more quad though. Bestiamanova & Bukin would have won 0 World titles if that was the case.
    Even if B&B chose to stay past 88 they would have never gotten any backing from the Russian fed. as the number 1 team after being at the global level so long and never having won anything.
     
  8. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    This as well. With COP having been around awhile it seems some forget how political ice dancing used to be. I am sure the Soviet power machine would have grown frustarated with their dominance and cooked something up, be it deducting them for illegal moves like they did in 94, or whatever was neccessary, so actually my original statement they would have easily dominated until 1988 might not even be correct, despite that they are IMO twice the team the ridiculously overrated B&B are (I thought K&P were practically twice the team B&B were from 86-88 but it never showed in the results). I think they realized this and is one reason they also didnt stay past 84, along with reaching a level of perfection and excellence which was almost impossible to surpass again, even for them.
     
  9. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,040
    Yeah deducting for rule breaking would've probably been an avenue to attack T&D. Kneeling on the ice for 10 seconds at the beginning of Bolero was innovative at the time but I could easily see the judges getting sick of things like that after a couple of years. For a year or two, I can see them getting showered with more accolades and receiving the first straight 6.0s for tech. Then I can imagine the Soviets pushing for reactionary rule changes and Dean constantly having to reinvent the wheel and getting frustrated. I think T&D would've had a lot of political support from NA and the rest of Europe though. Klimova said she often felt like the Duschenays had all of Europe behind them. Since the Soviet Union hadn't collapsed yet, there was no Soviet bloc of judges to push B&B to the top (which actually begs the question of were did they get their political power in pairs/dance in the 70s/80s or where they just that good?).
     
  10. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    I wonder if T&D would have been somewhat immune to accusations or rule breaking by judges or other federations? Blumberg & Seibert were dinged by at least one of the judges for their Scheherazade FD because the music was one continuous beat, of course, so too was Bolero, but T&D received straight 6.0s from all of the judges.

    In addition, unlike the situation with the Protopopovs, the British fed. didn't have two or three dance teams nipping at the heels of T&D, capable of taking over the spot as the number one team in the world (there was no British ice dance version of Irina Rodnina waiting in the wings). I think the British fed. would have obviously had thrown whatever influence/support fully behind T&D.

    ETA: If T&D had stayed eligible through 1988, would the Soviet Fed. have dumped B&B as their number 1 team during this time period, and thrown the full weight of their influence behind K&P, or would they had lobbied hard behind B&B?


    Thanks for the thread, these what-if scenarios are so much fun. :cheer:
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2012
  11. VarBar

    VarBar Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2008
    Messages:
    1,218
    Maybe the judges from East European countries such as Czechoslovakia or the DDR though? At least that's what I've learned from watching this movie about John Curry and his skating career.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=IPDmczkp_8s#t=90s
     
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479

    At the 86 Worlds as it was K&P missed beating B&B for the gold by only .1 from 1 judge in the FD. I believe if T&D were still around and B&B had still not won a major title and were still not challenging T&D at all (eg- even taking judges off them), which they might well not have since as Cherub stated I expect the T&D lovefest would have lasted atleast another year or two, you would definitely have seen K&P beating B&B at those 86 Worlds, and that would be the end of B&B as the Soviet #1 team for good, as it almost was and definitely would have been even without T&D had K&P gotten that extra .1 at those Worlds. Whether K&P could have beaten T&D before 1988 or not, B&B would definitely no longer have been Soviet #1 by that point IMHO.

    I admit I strongly dislike B&B and find them perhaps the most overrated and overdecorated ice dancing team in history however, so I am not the most objective source when it comes to them, but even trying to be fully objective I truly believe what I just wrote.
     
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    Bestiamanova & Bukin do not have the technical ability to even challenge T&D, regardless how much some might like their avant garde routines (which mostly made me want to puke anyway). That is another reason they would have been dumped for K&P quite quickly if T&D had stuck around another quadrennial. K&P do have the technical ability to compete with T&D, and they could have worked on them revamping and branching out their artistic genuis much sooner than they did with the support of #1 Soviets. Their only drawback was being coached by Dubova who continously gave them generic work below their talent and potential for years.

    At the very least with both T&D and a developing K&P around the World should be safe from the misery of B&Bs long reign on top the World of ice dancing.
     
  14. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2003
    Messages:
    2,612
    Even if T & D had stuck around in 1985, Song of India (which they used to win the World Professional Championships) would have become an instant classic like Bolero. It was fantastic seeing them skate it live when they toured Australia that year.
     
  15. vivika1982

    vivika1982 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,691
    :respec: ITA and they had so many great Pro programs that would've been even greater competitive programs.
     
  16. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    223
    IMO, it would have been very risky to continue with competitive skating after Bolero, since the result with perfect sixes couldn't be repeated, and still remains unreached. Of course, they would have been a challenging competition for B/B and K/P, but keep in mind, the upcoming couples were also younger and could adjust to rising demands in competition easier, I think.

    Dean created marvellous programs for the Duchesnays. Missing and Elanor's Dream T/D had skated with slightly different choreographies themselves in pro events and shows, but as for Savage Rites and Mirror Image (and, to a lesser extend, West Side Story), the programs were taylored for the Ds. I can absolutely not imagine T/D skating Savage Rites, let alone Mirror Image (their difference in height makes it almost impossible). Reverse lifts would have been difficult to manage for T/D. Their skating might have been cleaner, technically more precise, but some programs wouldn't have fitted them. It always seemd to me that Dean knew exactly which program suited what type of skater, and choreographed accordingly.

    I think (it's all a what-if scenario...) that T/D might have remaind on top for another term - say, until '88 Olympics, and might have beaten B/B. But they wouldn't have reached their own record of Bolero again. A win at the '88 Olys would have meant winning with a program that would inevitably been less recognized than the one they made history with. And I think they wouldn't have beaten K/P.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    While I agree with most of what you said, Torvill & Dean are about the same age as Bestiamanova & Bukin, in fact the oldest skater on either team is Bukin.
     
  18. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,040
    I can't imagine T&D (Jayne specifically) doing Savage Rites either, but I agree with other posts that stuff like Song of India would translate well to competition. So then I wonder, does Dean continue to choreograph for his girlfriend while he and Jayne compete? He may have, since the Ds would be no risk to T&D technically, but they would not have gotten his best stuff.

    I posted T&D's missing in the OP, but I didn't know they had done Eleanor Rigby too - does anyone have a video? That program is so underrated, and Paul D was brilliant in it.
     
  19. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    As I said I cant imagine any scenario T&D would be motivated to compete past 88, win or lose, but in the crazy and unimaginable scenario they were still competing past 88, I:

    1. Could not see Christopher even dating Isabelle Duchensay. His focus would be too much on other things for that to have even transpired, especialy vs a fellow competitor, even one who probably wouldnt have been competitive with him, which leads me to.....

    2. The Duchensays would not have been choreographed by Christopher Dean, and if they were not would have been no more relevant in that era than say Engi & Toth. Probably would have never gotten higher than about 5th in the World with the groundbreaking programs he gave to them which suited their bizarre style of skating and which glossed over their mediocre technical skills perfectly.
     
  20. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,036
    This hasn't been mentioned but didn't T/D compete in the '77 - '80 quadrennial as well? I think it was quite standard in the 1980s to maximally compete in 2 quadrennials and then retire, especially if you were incredibly successful as they were. With that in mind, I doubt anything at the time would've encouraged them to compete until '88
     
  21. Shyjosie

    Shyjosie Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2009
    Messages:
    223
    Maybe I'm wrong, I remember some quote somewhere telling T/D skated that routine, too, but it needs to be confirmed, I can't tell for sure...
    And yes, Paul Duchesnay was simply unbelievable in this one.

    AFAIK, T/D competed in the 77-80 term as well, and took part in the Lake Placid Olympics, finishing 7th (?). But K/P competed for more than a decade, too, winning three Olympic medals.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2012
  22. vivika1982

    vivika1982 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,691
  23. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    :COP:
    Per Wikipedia, K&P won the silver medal at the Golden Spin competition during the 1981-1982 season. If we count juniors, Sergei skated for even longer on the world stage. In 1978, he and his first partner won the first of their two titles as World Junior Ice Dance Champions.

    You are right, T&D did skate to Eleanor Rigby, unfortunately, it looks like we may never see the routine for ourselves:
    About Eleanor's Dream, also from Wiki:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dean
     
  24. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2002
    Messages:
    9,330
    If T&D skated til 1994, Calgary (the first time I really watched skating on TV) would've been so much more amazing. Although, I would be sad that W&M would not win an Oly medal (and with Rob's passing, they may never have won a World medal even if W&M would've decided to compete after 88).

    Dean would very likely not have coached the Duchesneys. We may never have seen the Duchesnays' famous Tango OSP (or would T&D have performed the program?). I wonder if the skating programs in France and Britain would have changed.
     
  25. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    I was actually just thinking of the impact T&D's staying eligible would have on teams such as W&M, A&S and U&Z. If T&D stayed eligible, and if K&P overtook B&B for the spot as the Soviets # 1, would B&B have retired sooner from eligible competition? If B&B retired around 1985/1986 and A&S became U.S.S.R's 2nd ice dance team after K&P, would W&M and A&S still finish 3-4 in the standings at Calgary? W&M had a great free dance and performance in front of the home home crowd in Calgary, but might the placements change if A&S gained a reputation for being the number 3 team after T&D and K&P?
    On that note, if the Soviet team consisted of K&P, A&S and U&Z, how would Usova & Zhulin place? They placed 4th at the 1988 European Championships, with B&B winning gold, A&S silver and the Duchesnays the bronze.
     
  26. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,479
    Hmm all interesting thoughts. I will say that I think with a Soviet sweep no longer a danger A&S finishing above W&M would be very possible (regardless whether or not merited), and that U&Z passing A&S sometime before they actually did in 1989 might well have occured if they were going to Worlds together from 86 and 87 onwards also. W&M, A&S, and U&Z could quite possibly have finished in any order in that scenario I imagine.
     
  27. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2002
    Messages:
    14,040
    Thanks to everyone who posted info about T&D's Eleanor's Dream. Shame we never got to see it. As for this: "It ends with her in a crucifix form across his back as he carries her off into the fog. She was right to fear him after all" - no wonder he is called Mr. Void! :inavoid:

    I don't think B&B would have retired before 88. They strike me as fighters and they had Tarasova behind them. They wouldn't have given up so easily, IMO. I know that some believe they didn't deserve their titles, but I felt that they were better than K&P from 85-88 because of their stronger choreography. K&P were so dull and generic in that era, and I think after T&D, the skating community wanted ice dance to keep that excitement, though they changed their minds by 1994 and keep pulling back every couple of years when they think it's too over the top. Now, in a scenario where T&D stayed, they would have their interesting champions, and indeed the judges would be free to put K&P above B&B based on their technique. I don't think B&B/Tarasova would have just lied down and taken it though, I think they would've pushed harder. As for K&P developing sooner artistically, I doubt it because Marina was just 18 in 1984. Post-88 was their prime time to begin experimenting. I love K&P but I actually think they were somewhat lucky to have won in 1989 and 1990 with such bland programs (lucky that the Duschenays did not have great basics, not lucky in the sense of politics).

    And yes, I agree that A&S would probably pass W&M. I think A&S, like S&N in pairs in 1994, were victims of the judges not wanting the Soviets to sweep. So in this scenario, U&Z stay where they are, unless the Soviet Union looks at Zhulin and sees Dean potential, pushing them to Worlds over A&S.
     
  28. floskate

    floskate Vacant

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2003
    Messages:
    8,799
    This! Not only did they begin competing internationally in 1976 at St Gervais and Oberstdorf, but Jayne had competed internationally as a pair skater going back to 1972 when she came last in pairs at Europeans with Michael Hutchinson. I just can't see any scenario where they would have wanted to stay in at all. Chris would have felt stifled by the rules, they had made huge financial sacrifices and despite the grant from Nottingham County Council, they were in no way anywhere near as subsidised as the Soviets who, lets face it, didn't really have much of a say on when they retired. The fed did that for them ;) Plus staying in they could have risked losing at some point which could have damaged their earning potential as pros. There was no way they would ever find a greater platform to launch such incredible professional careers as the one they found themselves in after the 1984 season. Why waste 4 years of earning power, unlimited creative freedom and the capacity to still skate at their highest level, just to stay in and hope the judges didn't get bored and dump them?
     
  29. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2004
    Messages:
    7,036
    Thanks for the history. I had no idea that they went back so far! I do remember they placed 5th at Lake Placid '80, so I had assumed they must've competed at an elite level in the 70s.
     
  30. lulu

    lulu New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2002
    Messages:
    5,615
    Good points. I was wondering if perhaps their federation would prematurely retire B&B, if T&D are locked in for the gold and if K&P overtake B&B in terms of both medals and reputation; but that doesn't make too much sense when you look at the example of G&G and V&V. When G&G overtook V&V as the Soviet (and World) number one team in the world, the fed. didn't retire V&V. Why would they? With G&G and V&V they would almost certainly lock up the gold & silver position at Worlds and the Olympics. I can imagine the same line of thinking happening WRT K&P and B&B. They might not be able to beat T&D for the gold, but they would almost certainly lock up the silver and bronze medals in the 85-88 quad. Even if K&P surpassed B&B, I can't imagine any other team in the world managing to overtake B&B for the 3rd spot in the standings.

    ITA about K&P and B&B. B&B had fantastic programs between 1985-1988. As much as I love how K&O and V&M have really made Carmen their own, and put their own modern spin on the routine, I think Natalia is the definitive classic Carmen.
    With K&P, and I made the same point in the V&V thread, I see them as having a similar career trajectory as G&G. In the 80s, both teams were renowned for their technical excellence, but their choreography (and I know others would disagree on this point) left a lot to be desired. Both teams though, were absolutely amazing as professional skaters, with many signature routines.

    I'm glad things worked out the way they did. T&D continued to take ice dance to a new realm-this time as professional skaters. B&B gave us four more years of drama & voids on the ice-and won the OGM, and K&P won the OGM in Albertville and more importantly, developed into wonderful artists, with the phenomenal "Air" FD in 1992. :swoon: